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Old 05-26-2008, 05:46 AM   #11
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The fact is HCCI proves there IS a POTENTIAL for a 25% improvement, due to perfect distribution of the fuel and air molecules at the point where they can be ignited by compression instead of ignition.

That's RIGHT you can get more power out of the fuel, as the H2O for fuel advocates claim.

Unfortunately it requires greater compression ratios to ignite a homogenous mixture, and in experiments it takes longer than the time period you have with port fuel injection.

I met with the owner of a small start up company here in Virginia who had an article published in the local paper about water for gas. I wanted to put a system in my Del Sol. I rode around with one of the two people for a day while he drove his routes and left people with information about the system, and he had a functional system in his vehicle.

The idea certainly appeals to me, precisely because I understand the additional potential of HCCI in gasoline engines.

These people had dedicated a lot of time energy and effort into this system and I was riding around in a Chevy Van that had one functioning. The interaction ended when they told me Virginia had passed a law that made it illegal to sell the system to customers with vehicles that had Federally required emission controls, UNTIL THE SYSTEM HAD BEEN CERTIFIED TO COMPLY.

They were selling to Diesel truck owners, who did not have to worry about the emission controls or compliance.

It used to be that the EPA would fine only manufacturers and dealers, as well as repair shops for non compliance. Now they can fine INDIVIDUALS for emission violations.

Road Warrior, I didn't start this thread with the attitude it is not possible for HHO to actually enhance the homogenous mixture of fuel and air and increase power and efficiency.

I actually think it is possible to improve it somewhat, if the HHO creates a staged combustion process that has the effect of better distribution of fuel and air particles in the mix.

On the other hand any claim above the perfect HCCI mixture which is a 25% improvement simply claims there is energy being created that doesn't exist. HCCI requires greater compression ratios for auto ignition just like a diesel. In fact HCCI is like a diesel engine that runs of gasoline. Maybe the hydrogen burning temperature and the additional oxygen have the ability to actually do exactly what many different research organizations have succeeded in doing under laboratory conditions.

Believe me I have experienced the skepticism of established institutions when it comes to miracle cures for IC engine efficiency. Their barrier against innovation was built by 1,000,000 snake oil salesmen for 100 years with miracle carburetors and other miracle engines. Unfortunately when you walk into a meeting with people who have been through it, they have come to the conclusion that there is practically NO CHANCE that your idea has merit.They are not going to stick there necks in the noose to become the brunt of their colleagues jokes for decades.

Virginia can actually enforce the law and fine me for installing an uncertified system, although I have never read of them even fining someone for removing a cat, they have the legal authority.

regards
gary
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Old 05-26-2008, 05:53 AM   #12
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Road Warrior, my father landed a P47 at LeBourget (Paris) after his last B17mission, on D-Day june 6th 1944. There were acres of German Kubelwagens (little VW jeep like vehicles like the Thing) next to the airport that had coal gas generators so the vehicles could run on coal.

The Germans were desperate for any means of creating fuel substitutes. I thing you can understand this. Browns gas has been around for at least 100 years before WW2.

The Me 162 Comet
The Walther Uboats
The V2

Some of their Very dangerous alternative fuel type machines.

regards
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Old 05-26-2008, 08:49 AM   #13
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If they'd have discovered the Italian Navy had a 2 year reserve of fuel oil kept secret from their German pals before we started landing in Italy, we'd have been in a heap of crap.
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Old 05-26-2008, 09:21 AM   #14
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Well if it worked I think all of the large fleet operators would be doing it. When I see a sticker on the side of a UPS truck stating that it is running on Brown's Gas I will follow suit.
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Old 05-26-2008, 10:55 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by friz View Post
Well if it worked I think all of the large fleet operators would be doing it. When I see a sticker on the side of a UPS truck stating that it is running on Brown's Gas I will follow suit.
BINGO!
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Old 05-26-2008, 06:39 PM   #16
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*edit* quadancer, you don't happen to be selling these things are you? maybe for a really reasonable price?
Haha, naw, I'm just a working slug who has about 25 hours of looking into this, and my business partner and a helper have them in their trucks. I'm still collecting info, still skeptical on certain things, but NOT on the ability to generate HHO and use it in an engine.
I say you're right about ebay and Utube hucksters, especially Utube where you can get some weird sort of gratification just by recognition. OTOH, would you really think that so many people with HHO generators are all "proving" themselves right by lying about mileages and NONE are saying "I tried all the gear and electronics and couldn't get it to work."?
At this point I only have a couple of concerns as to using this system. One is possibly excess water in part of the combustion, another is using my 105 amp alternator on my big v-8, another is the use of multiple cells.
Oh, and the cost of the electronics.
Like you guys, I'd prefer to see some test done by someone we could call reputable. Maybe the moderators of this forum?
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Old 05-27-2008, 04:53 AM   #17
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quadancer,

I'm confused. you totally back the mason jar magic, then you come back with you are still skeptical? I can't understand this. there are things on this site that aren't mass produced that work and the reason they aren't mass produced is because they have negative side affects and are easily done by someone with a little time on their hands. like a grill block and wam air intake they both cause more heat to the engine which if it isn't watched could cause your engine to overheat. this hydrogen producer claims to have no negative side affects and the best claim I have heard is double your mileage. and you don't get the energy for free there is an exchange of energy.

you have a large amp and sub. I had a system that was pushing 125dB (if you don't know what that means then the rest won't make much sense either) when the base would hit, the current draw from the battery/alternator was so extreme that the voltage would surge downwards causing the lights to dim. I had the voltage go down so far once that it choked my car off. this is from the alternator. I guess it would also be from the decreased voltage possibly going to the plugs and what not as well. I was impressed with my stereo after that. my point is that your alternator doesn't give away free energy. it takes a lot to keep these things running. also your amp is only pulling that power when the bass is hitting and most music doesn't have long bass runs unless you are listening to synthesizer type music (techno and such). I had a 120 amp fuse on my system and popped it a few times myself. I got out of that about 10 years ago because I found other places for my money to go.

if you really want to do research on this subject, just do a search on this forum for HHO. most of the people backing it have less than 10 posts and no gas log. that should tell you a lot right there. on the other hand, you have veteran/senior members here that can explain out why it (theoretically) shoud work and why it doesn't. will it ever work? maybe. will we ever see twice the gas mileage by dumping water into our engines? I dobut it.

side not: I don't doubt that hydrogen can be made with electrolysis. I just doubt its efficiency in the process of doing so.
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Old 05-27-2008, 02:35 PM   #18
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Let me shed some light on this. HHO generators don't do JS because you can't make enough brown's gas to run a lawn mower much less a 2.0L 4 banger.

Now if you add in the rest of the BS electronics and change your driving habits you will get an increase in FE.

The main part of this amazing BS is fooling the ECU to run leaner than 14.7:1 AFR. Actually most engines run richer than that for power and to keep that CAT hot enough to burn a hole in your wallet.

Air up your tires
cut out the cat
get a high flow muffler
Good tune up
reprogram your ECU to run @ 15.7:1 or greater at light load cruising speeds
Keep your foot off the floor

BAM!!! 30% Increase! Can I get $1.00 from everyone that does this? I just saved you $100's in fuel and $1000 on BS equipment.
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Old 05-28-2008, 08:14 AM   #19
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Was just reading about ignition advance and discovered another inefficiency that the HHO might be helping to scavenge. This could also apply to how acetone, isopropyl, mothballs, or fuel heating might help some motors...

It seems that most motors are set up with a conservative very shallow ignition advance curve for "emissions reasons". This would appear to ding peak cylinder pressure by as much as 35% at 2000-3000 RPM. Therefore something that speeds up the burn in this range, thus allowing peak cylinder pressure to occur sooner would obviously improve midrange torque and economy. As would making the ignition advance more aggressive, so it peaks sooner.
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Old 05-29-2008, 06:22 PM   #20
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Probably so. My work partner, regardless of FE, says his dodge truck is running smoother and seems to have more power. But with a leaner mix, that would seem questionable. And so if we need a cutoff switch to pull a trailer, pass cars, where is that power? Just thinking 'out loud'.
No doubt we can make HHO, at around 1.7 liter/min. with a bit of work. I'm not doubting that HHO makes octane higher, and adds to the burn. I can see how it (or the water) can clean the engine. I'm skeptical in just a few grey areas such as timing when the unit is on...we may eventually incorporate some special timing unit later? And what about alternator drag? Some loss there, I imagine (good thing we don't have the old generators!), and in our little car we won't be able to use the subs under way; too many amps. (my silverado has a 105 amp alt. and can buy a stock unit up to 130 amps.) So I turn down the radio I guess. And then there's the lack of anyone doing a videotaped, controlled experiment, with and without the accessory parts like voltage modulators and the like. I just can't seem to deny that it works, or if not, there's one heck of a lot of guys spending time and money to just spread a lie. And I don't think so.
Personally, I just want to be sure before spending hard earned money and spending valuable time.
RW: that was a really good little blurb you put in the other thread about the IC engine efficiency. Funny too.
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