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Old 07-12-2008, 02:07 PM   #11
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Old 07-12-2008, 02:23 PM   #12
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Hey guys, I recently came across some interesting data about the rolling resistance of tires (wink, wink) while I was shopping for tires and thought I'd share it. One thing I've learned is that you have to absolutely pay attention to the price of the tire, the tread life and the rolling resistance. Too expensive of a tire at the time of purchase will make your fuel savings moot at the end. "I saved over $300 in gas on those $600 tires!"

Now. Pay attention to this. You in the back, are you paying attention? Stop playing with your Airtabs for two seconds, please! saveontires.com. Free FedEx ground shipping. NOTE that there is no www in the address! The tires I ordered from them cost $150 each in person, $81 ($10 each shipping) at tirerack.com and $64 (no shipping) at savontires.com. $600 plus in town, less than $300 online. That there is some serious change. A 2% increase in gas mileage from a good tire selection/price suddenly has a rather short payoff.

What I noticed is two things. First, rolling resistance (or lack thereof) has an effect on how the tire performs under stress. A tire that has a very low rolling resistance might as an example, not grip in snow as well as a tire with high rolling resistance.

Most all season passenger tires have pretty good rolling resistance ratings with the notable exception of the Pirelli P3000 and the Bridgestone Turanza LS-T. Both of those, oddly enough, also have very poor snow and ice performance.

The very best of the very best all season passenger car tires for increasing your gas mileage are the Michelin X Radial (available only through Sam's Club and Costco), the Michelin Agility Touring (available only through Sears), the Toyo 800 Ultra and the Sumitomo HTR H4. It goes without saying that the Michelins will be the most expensive of the entire group with the Toyo and Sumitomo brands less expensive. This group of tires typically have poorer than average snow traction and ice braking characteristics with the exception of the Sumitomo which has above average snow traction characteristics while having a name that most people will mangle when trying to say it.

Other brands have models of tires that have lower than average rolling resistance like the Hankook Mileage Plus II H725 (who the heck comes up with these names?) and the Goodyear assurance Triple tread. Oddly, the Goodyear assurance comfort tread model has very poor braking and wet road performance but excellent rolling resistance. Two tires of the same model with vastly different characteristics is something the casual purchaser should be very wary of when shopping at your local tire outlet. You can't stop, but dang you're getting good mileage with them!

In the end, choosing a tire for gas mileage can be a trade-off in other safety features of the tire like being able to stop in a panic situation and moving in snow. As with their truck tires, the Hankook Dynapro AS RH03, Hankook's Mileage Plus II H725, on paper at least, should give the typical driver acceptable safety and also get some pretty good miles per gallon increases. If you're a member at one of the clubs, check out the Michelin mentioned above but be prepared to pay enough extra to make the gasoline savings moot over the life of the tire.

5 beers, for those keeping score at home.
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Old 07-12-2008, 02:53 PM   #13
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Great job! Any review on the light truck tires?

Was the Michelin Hydroedge mentioned at all? How about the BF Goodrich Long Trail?

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Originally Posted by kitcar View Post
Most all season passenger tires have pretty good rolling resistance ratings with the notable exception of the Pirelli P3000 and the Bridgestone Turanza LS-T. Both of those, oddly enough, also have very poor snow and ice performance.
The Turanza LS-T may be almost the same as the Turanza T that I really liked long before I was interested in FE. Its 80,000 mile treadwear warranty and appearance remind me of that model. Its low rolling resistance may be due to its long treadwear, which exceeded even the 80,000 miles they warranty them for now, or may be due to soft sidewalls with lots of deflection that required me to use a lot more air pressure for decent ride and handling.

If they are the same as the ones I had, they may offer better RR at higher pressure than specified by your car's label. That won't help people who already inflates to sidewall maximum, but for people who find such inflation causes bad handling, these tires could still work out well -- they handle well with higher inflation than other tires (though they handle worse at the same inflation). I'd still say don't get them unless you can get a really great deal on them, due to the high RR.
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Old 07-12-2008, 03:44 PM   #14
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The Long Trail was not tested. In fact I can't recall seeing any Goodrich's on the list. The Hydroedge (6th highest rated) was one that was tested and got good results but it's a pretty expensive donut.

By the way, I came across the humidifier for my old frog tank that is a perfect size for screwing around with a hydrogen generator. Even has little hose barbs on the top. Hmmmmmmm. Be a great chance to try that holding tank/regulator I had an idea about.

Anyways.

Truck tires? Did someone mention truck tires? I did all my research on all season light truck tires - no all terrains at all. I'll look at them later on.

The first two highest rated (overall) all season LT tires are the Goodyear Fortera HL Edition and the Pirelli Scorpion STR A. They both have very poor rolling resistance. The third highest rated tire, the Hankook Dynapro AS H03 has above average rolling resistance (the ones I bought). The Kelly Safari Signature (the tire that is on Stinkerbutt right now) also has very poor rolling resistance as does the Yokohama Geolander H/T-S G051 (what the heck and just name the thing "H/T-S195 G095-super-391 R856"). For those with deep pockets (which negates going for higher mileage), the Michelin Cross Terrain and the XC LT4 (Sears only) have excellent and good rolling resistance ratings in that order.

Other LT tires that are above average are the Hankook Dynapro RF06 (NOT the same as the AS RH03!), the General Ameritrac SUV ($ears only) the Uniroyal Laredo Cross Country and the Bridgestone Dueler H/T D684.

One thing I will point out is that not all the all season truck tires are available in all sizes. It took me almost 10 hours online to actually find the size/price/rolling resistance combination that I wanted in a 235-75R15. The sizes of all these tires are all over the place. That's not to say they aren't made, it's a matter of finding them at the price you want. They have the Bridgestones but $30 each more than the Hankooks which they don't have in the right size but you can pay the extra $70 each for the Michelins.

The advice I have on this deal is to be prepared to do a lot of Googling for what you want.

2 more beers for a total of 5.
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Old 07-12-2008, 03:57 PM   #15
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The Long Trail was not tested. In fact I can't recall seeing any Goodrich's on the list. The Hydroedge (6th highest rated) was one that was tested and got good results but it's a pretty expensive donut.

By the way, I came across the humidifier for my old frog tank that is a perfect size for screwing around with a hydrogen generator. Even has little hose barbs on the top. Hmmmmmmm. Be a great chance to try that holding tank/regulator I had an idea about.

Anyways.

Truck tires? Did someone mention truck tires? I did all my research on all season light truck tires - no all terrains at all. I'll look at them later on.

The first two highest rated (overall) all season LT tires are the Goodyear Fortera HL Edition and the Pirelli Scorpion STR A. They both have very poor rolling resistance. The third highest rated tire, the Hankook Dynapro AS H03 has above average rolling resistance (the ones I bought). The Kelly Safari Signature (the tire that is on Stinkerbutt right now) also has very poor rolling resistance as does the Yokohama Geolander H/T-S G051 (what the heck and just name the thing "H/T-S195 G095-super-391 R856"). For those with deep pockets (which negates going for higher mileage), the Michelin Cross Terrain and the XC LT4 (Sears only) have excellent and good rolling resistance ratings in that order.

Other LT tires that are above average are the Hankook Dynapro RF06 (NOT the same as the AS RH03!), the General Ameritrac SUV ($ears only) the Uniroyal Laredo Cross Country and the Bridgestone Dueler H/T D684.

One thing I will point out is that not all the all season truck tires are available in all sizes. It took me almost 10 hours online to actually find the size/price/rolling resistance combination that I wanted in a 235-75R15. The sizes of all these tires are all over the place. That's not to say they aren't made, it's a matter of finding them at the price you want. They have the Bridgestones but $30 each more than the Hankooks which they don't have in the right size but you can pay the extra $70 each for the Michelins.

The advice I have on this deal is to be prepared to do a lot of Googling for what you want.

2 more beers for a total of 5.
I just wish that the rolling resistance was listed with the other tire specifications. You should not have to work this hard to find that information.

Its nice to know that the Michelin XC LT4 has decent RR. That is the tire my brother in law recommended to me. He manages the Quick Lane service at a local Ford dealer, and told me he could get those at a good price. Rusty has Michelin tires in him as well, I don't remember the exact model though. They still have pretty good tread left on them.

-Jay
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Old 07-12-2008, 04:34 PM   #16
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5 beers, for those keeping score at home.
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2 more beers for a total of 5.
Sounds like they're working.

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The Long Trail was not tested. In fact I can't recall seeing any Goodrich's on the list. The Hydroedge (6th highest rated) was one that was tested and got good results but it's a pretty expensive donut.
That's too bad about the Long Trail, those come stock on lots of trucks and wear pretty long, and they're not too expensive. The Hydroedge is a surprise, I googled it and folks reported that they thought it had high rolling resistance. It's got a 90,000 mile treadwear warranty, and may pay off even at higher prices.
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Old 07-12-2008, 04:41 PM   #17
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Sounds like they're working.



That's too bad about the Long Trail, those come stock on lots of trucks and wear pretty long, and they're not too expensive. The Hydroedge is a surprise, I googled it and folks reported that they thought it had high rolling resistance. It's got a 90,000 mile treadwear warranty, and may pay off even at higher prices.
Better than these Coopers on my truck. They're on their last legs, and they only have 42,000 miles on them. I'm going to replace them by the end of the summer.

-Jay
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Old 07-12-2008, 04:55 PM   #18
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I just wish that the rolling resistance was listed with the other tire specifications. You should not have to work this hard to find that information.

-Jay
Well, Jay, as near as I've been able to figure out by reading between the lines, you can purchase the data. And therein lies the rub since it takes specialty equipment to run the test (like dynometers used to be). However. I would think that the NREL and or the EPA or California all of whom are apparently demanding the tests which are government agencies would get off the dime and publish the findings instead of a governmentese PDF file with no useful information whatsoever. 2003 data my butt. It's not like they started doing these ratings yesterday.

But that's me, I expect my government to work for me instead of ruling over me. (where's that middle finger smilie when you need it?).

Which is the answer to the question, in my opinion. Consider the following scenario. The push for higher fuel economy (especially for existing vehicles) dictates better rolling resistance in the tires as part of the solution since once we all start using E85 our mileage will drop 40% (but by then it will cost 20% more than regular gas because of corn future prices and the cost to convert the tanker trucks to E85). But the physics of tires dictates that something has to be given up in order to get that lower resistance, wet traction, braking, snow traction, etc.. Let the government hearings and lawsuits begin.

I can see it now, the invisible flames of alcohol burning and the massive hydrogen explosion caused by the low rolling resistance tires that slid on the snow covered highway that causes the avalanche (which wipes out the rare Western Turquoise Winter Cricket) that will be blamed on global warming because the hot air rose too high and fell as snow but the carbon in the snow caused it to be extra heavy and slippery. And all of it because of "Big Tire" and the hiding of the safety issues of low rolling resistance tires which will cause tire and rubber futures to go through the roof and (of course) tires will then only last 100 miles and cost $400. Each. But, hey the Europeans have been paying $800 per tire for years so the days of cheap tires are over and who are we to be so arrogant that we can drive on snow anytime we want in the first place?

Not to mention the warning labels on the the tires. So the real answer is politics. Who is going to buy tires that will actually lower gas mileage? The Big Rubber lobby is behind the withholding of the data, probably.

Why weren't we warned about the cost in safety the lament will be. Hey, I could be one of those "mileage consultants" on CNN when they need them! "Now joining us is mileage safety consultant..."

Here's a good one. I'm talking to my Mom last night and she says that I should look into this "Hypodriving" thing everyone is talking about. "Uh, Mom......what in the hell do you think all that crap hanging off my truck is for"?

The score is now 8 beers.
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Old 07-12-2008, 05:09 PM   #19
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Here's a good one. I'm talking to my Mom last night and she says that I should look into this "Hypodriving" thing everyone is talking about. "Uh, Mom......what in the hell do you think all that crap hanging off my truck is for"?

The score is now 6 beers.
2 comments...



Hypodriving... Hypo is a greek prefix meaning below, or under. I would imagine a "hypodriver" is one who specializes in driving in tunnels, and under bridges..

I think your mother owes you a beer as well.

-Jay
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Old 07-12-2008, 05:53 PM   #20
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by then it will cost 20% more than regular gas because of corn future prices and the cost to convert the tanker trucks to E85
http://www.autoobserver.com/2008/04/...lot-plant.html
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