In the very early days of the automobile, I'm sure there was a similar conversation as horse owners and car owners debated the merits and drawbacks of each.

Are you a pro-horse or pro-petrol vehicle fan?

Perhaps, or in the late 1800's when electric cars were preferred over gasoline ones, this very conversation was being discussed then. There were even "rechargeable" battery electric vehicles as early as 1884 in London, but once the starter motor came along, sales of expensive electric cars started to decline.

I wonder if automobile crank starter fans of yesteryear scoffed at electric starters, because a crank starter made them feel "more connected" to their car?

Ha ha ha! I've not missed the manual gearbox once. I'm tempted to test the 0-60 time, it seems to be between 9.5 and 10.5 seconds....

Re that article about the Leaf, i lost £9,000 on that £13,000 Hyundai in 2 and a half years, I don't think its exceptional.
The penalty for buying a new car that you dont then keep for 10 + years is that you lose most of the money you put down on it.
Luckily, the Prius offers everything the i20 didnt, so i know i will enjoy driving it for the next decade.
I couldn't bear to make the same financial disaster with this car as i did the last one!
Did you buy your Clio new? I bet you're looking at a comparable loss when it comes time to sell....

Salesman love that.
When I bought my present car. Was waiting at the dealership. The salesman decided he just had to come up with something offensive.
He said: "You drove that old car for 18 years!?"
I said: "Don't worry. This one should last longer."

I bet there were - and maybe still are - people who missed the direct connection to their cars when automatic spark advance took over from the steering-wheel-mounted spark retard control, and when automatic chokes took over from manual ones, and when fuel pumps took over from hand-pressurized fuel tanks, when closed crankcases and oil recirculation took over from oil cups, and I am sure the list goes on. Many new cars now have a "Start/Stop" button instead of a key switch, but I haven't heard anyone complain about that automation. It amazes me that people who are willing to accept almost complete automation in every other aspect of their vehicles still think they can do a better job than an automatic transmission.

I bought the i20 by justifying i would keep it 10 years and pass it on to my son...bland as it was, i d be happy with the claimed 80-94 mpg Hyundai vouched it would deliver.
As you saw, it managed 64.1 over 40,000 miles.
It also has a fault Hyundai are too stupid or lazy to identify and fix.
I hated the bloody car; the thought of miserably holding on to it so as to smugly boast in 2023 that i had made a wise purchase financially...ugh!
They can stick that nine grand, they ll never see me again!

When i first got a 1987 diesel you had to flick a switch to warm the glow plugs before you turned the key. I did like that feature, but can live without it! Old diesels were no good as getaway cars, new ones seem to start like a petrol car.

It's not about doing a better job, it's what kind of driver you are. For me an automatic transmission just says you've given up on driving and don't enjoy it anymore, which is probably why most people with an auto here are pensioners. If you drive an automatic on my roads, and want to have fun, you'll not only risk overheating your brakes, you get through pads like there's no tomorrow and probably boil your fluid too. Auto transmissions force you to adopt a boring mundane style of driving, takes most of the enjoyment away. There are plenty of other reasons not to have an auto too:

BUYER'S GUIDE: 10 Reasons To Choose A Manual Transmission | BestRide

Funny, every automatic I have owned has had some provision for manual downshifting - and the downshifts actually work to provide engine braking. One of the more interesting was a Chevrolet Suburban I had decades ago. On a long downhill mountain road, I had downshifted it to first, and could achieve finer control of braking by switching the air conditioner on or off. When the compressor ran, more braking.

Our Subaru Outback has a CVT, which works very nicely. It has a six-speed emulator, so if the mood strikes one can pretend one has a six-speed. Its really neat trick is that, while still in Drive, one can use the paddle shifters to force a downshift on a hill. At the next "logical" time the transmission will put itself back in Drive. Generally, that "logical" time seems to be the next time the accelerator is pressed.

As far as the part about going through brake pads, I will point out that replacing brake pads is much easier and less expensive than replacing clutches. I have done both. At least one racing driver (no, I don't remember which one) is quoted as saying the engine is for going fast; the brakes are for slowing.

But of course, you are free to believe as you like.

Not sure what kind of Luke warm lame lethargic Motorsport they have in the US, besides the one where they drive around in circles all day, but can you imagine the amount of time lost in braking in an auto? There's a reason every Motorsport has manual gear changing. Clutches are very durable anyhow, I looked at an Audi TDI a few months back with 400,000 on the clock on the original clutch.

I understand that fun of a manual transmission. In heavy city traffic they aren't any fun. Way too much time with foot on clutch pedal.
In a large truck. You don't use the clutch, except for starting in 1st.
My car has an engine brake gear. It works great. Also a 'regular' gear. The regular takes away much of the CVT action. Puts a little load on the engine. I've learned to use both of those for holding down speed and stopping. Along with also using neutral for coasting. I spend pretty much time paddling that gear shift. Saving brake pads also.

That's because the fan's brains can't handle any more than going in circles all day. It helps with the beer sales also.

We have a little bit of Grand Prix. Wish we had more. I like it.

They had a racing picking up in So. Cal. when I left. Slolem racing against the clock. Take a large parking lot. On the weekend when not being used. Set up cones. Guys race their street cars on it for time. Looked like fun.

I've lost about £4000 in 2 years, not bad for a French car, but I did save a small heap by buying a "used" one with 4k on the clock. A typical similar sized electric car will loose a lot more in the same period, and given that they are about twice the price of a regular car, then the damage done is by comparison quadruple?!

Okay, you win. I retire in ignominious defeat, shamed by your vast knowledge.

It's not a battle Charon, you just need to man-up a bit and respect that people have freedom of choice and different preferences and not everyone on Gods planet has a "bad knee"...

No, it isn't a battle. It is a surrender. I yield to your vastly superior knowledge and you have the field unchallenged.

Yeah, i could have bought a used Hyundai, 6-12 months old, higher spec for around £3,000 less. But it didn't have the blue drive badge...!
I also wanted a "new" new car if i was spending that sort of money, my cars within the previous 12 months had cost £575 and £375!
I too had a twinge in the knee after hundreds of thousands of manual miles.
Regardless, the CVT is a better transmission than the manual.
You still havent driven a CVT yet have you..?
Speaking of pension age, you cant be that young Paul, owning 3 of those Peroduas or whatever...!

I'm open-minded about pretty much anything, won't knock it until I've tried it of course. I'd happily have a go in a CVT, but its more the gear changing I would miss than the clutch itself. Depends what you call young Ben, I still have a bit of 20's left, but not much!

More about the charging costs and the effect on EV sales here

£6 Ecotricity EV charging fee set to deter plug-in hybrids from charging at motorway services - GreenCarGuide.co.uk

Many race cars now use double clutch automatics, and the automatic in the Challenger Hellcat can outshift professional drivers.

It's the end of the world! :(

Ha, you're probably still classed as young then! It seems at the moment the hassle, cost and short range of EV cars makes them a style and eco ethics choice, rather than an economic one.
I still would like to have the plug in to increase my hybrid mpg, but couldn't face suffering more new car depreciation by switching to the Prime when it's out.
You should take a Prius out for a test drive Paul, see what you think. I got around an 8-10 mile drive and the chance to test some rapid acceleration.
As an automatic sceptic, that was enough to close me on the CVT.

I'm testing a new car this weekend, watch this space. It has a clutch and gears though, sorry to disappoint you ;)

Ha ha, i'm not disappointed - i think you're missing out though! The CVT is nowt like the auto box we grew up despising!
So, is it a modern, fully functional petrol hybrid?

No it's an old fashioned petrol burner, something fast to keep my adrenal gland ticking over!

Requiring EV buyers to lease the battery is like the trend to move software applications into the cloud and charging an annual fee for access (i.e. Microsoft Office 365 and a whole host of other big name apps).

Of course, NOTHING is free, even electric car travel. If the 10 year, battery replacement cost is $9,400 and the average American travel is 15,000 the cost per mile is 6.2 cents per mile.

I'm pulling better than 45mpg with my Honda. Assuming gas remains US$3/gallon over the next 10 years, my cost per mile for 150,000 miles of travel is US$10,000. This doesn't include routine maintenance that and ICE requires whereas an EV has nearly none; not even brake pads with regen braking.

Ideally, you don't want an EV with a battery lease. In 10 years, at the annual rate of battery tech improvement (5% per year, so far), your replacement batter will offer far better performance at a substantially lower cost.

I'm SO confident of my prediction Paul and Ben will gladly pay the cost difference, because they're just that kinda guys. :)

THINK?! Not me. I'm going back to watching TV, thank you.

Ha ha ha! I'm prepared to argue about most subjects, but only cos its free - good luck getting Paul to pay up!

CORRECTION: Should be "my cost for 150,000 miles of travel is US$10,000 or 6.6 cents per mile." instead of "my cost per mile for 150,000 miles of travel is US$10,000."

My fuel cost alone for my previous car was $15,000 (converted) after just 58,000 miles. EV's make even less sense in the US due to cheap gas then? I'm assuming depreciation is much worse too?

Here the incentives has a big part in the depreciation of a plug in. For the Volt and BEVs, it is a federal tax credit of $7500. Then some states throw something on top of that. In California and Colorado, the total incentives can be over 10 grand on a new car. That brings the price of the loaded Leaf with bigger battery down that of a base Prius. Even with low miles, a Leaf with the smaller battery is going to be lower in order to sell.

Then many new plug ins are leased. There is the worry about the battery later on driving them, and also the promise of newer cars getting better batteries and ranges.

Yes the incentives are good, although as you can see from previous posts, grants have been halved and charging points now cost more than petrol/diesel, I should imagine EV sales are going to plummet for the next few months, I will wait and see the registration data.

Interesting I did a comparison earlier, if I switched to a Leaf 30KW now, my C02 emissions would only fall by 9%, and my N0X/particulate matter emissions would only drop by 4%, the benefits of electric cars at present time are miniscule considering the increased cost (60% more for a Leaf V's a Clio)

2011 Nissan Leafs (Leaves?) can be easily found for about US$7,000. That's in the San Francisco area, where there's likely higher demand and more acceptance of EVs.

I'd consider one, but the "experts" are right. A 200 mile range would take car of my farthest local driving range with no worries. 80 miles is just too short.

Also, one other thing. The Leaf is SO ugly both outside and inside, I doubt even a 500 driving range would persuade me to buy.

Can't always wait for the next thing though, or nothing gets done! Ideally, I would have liked a Prius Prime - but couldn't have waited. In the meantime I would have bought a 2nd hand Jag, or Chrysler 300C or something. Glad I went for what they had then and there - as I was expecting the previous model (I had no idea the Gen 4 existed), I got lucky with my timing.
I don't mind the look of the Leaf - it's the short range that wouldn't work.
Someone in America has boasted a 1,000 mile tank on the new Prius. I dunno if the different battery over there gives longer EV range.
I'll be lucky if I see 600 miles, I need to work a lot harder...

You just need to let the fuel level drop further Ben, you must be filling up as soon as the warning light comes on. Your tank is 45 litres the same as mine, and I've averaged over 700 miles per tank from day 1, you are getting better economy so should be seeing close to 750-800 miles with ease ;)

True, I fill up before or as the fuel light comes on. The blurb in the manual says it is particularly bad to run the Prius totally out of fuel. When I fill up, it's usually 34-38 litres at around 540 miles, so another couple of gallons might let me reach 660 - 700 miles, but at the risk of damaging the car.

That blurb is there because people have run out of gas and continued to drive on the battery until they killed the battery.

Hybrids are a subset of ICE cars. If the gas tank is empty pulled over and stop.

That's just over cautious health and safety parameters, you'd get over 50 litres in that tank if you brimmed it, don't be afraid, take advantage of your good range!