Frivolous Law Suits
 

this kind of thing burns me...https://www.cfnews13.com/News/Local/2...l.html?cid=rss

it's a waste of tax payer money and court time! BTW, i've ridden this attraction, and it does of course have the health disclaimer at the entrance of the ride.

sigh stupid people...

there have been ALOT of stupid lawsuits.

like the guy who sued a lawnmower company because he tried using the lawnmower as a hedge trimmer, bent down grabbed the deck and his fingers got cutoff. He sued and won because the owners manual said he couldn't use it as a hedge trimmer.

thats one of the reasons why new lawnmowers have a huge *** manual and 80 stickers saying don't put foot hand whatever here only start it via this way and 10 pages of legal crap in the owners guide.

haha yea court is evil

I still think that in every lawsuit, the loser should have to pay the winner's legal fees. THAT would get rid of 95% of lawsuits in this country. (And, by the way, bring healthcare costs way down)

-BC

Your argument would hold more (actually, SOME) water if it were true, which it isn't, of course.

The thing you guys forget, is big corporations have full-time legal staff, and the small litigant (you) is always fighting an uphill battle against more money, better attorneys, time, etc. Forcing us to pay legal costs, and limiting liability (two favorite conservative positions) stacks the deck against you even more.

BTG whines about a waste of taxpayer money. Huh?? Where in his example is taxpayer money involved, other than to provide the court services? It sounds like you guys want to strip away your own constitutional rights to fair trials.

ahh well i just heard it from one of my professors (sounds like the tales been around for awhile so he prolyl heard it long ago lol):p

still could see some retard doing that tho:D i remember one of our aincent lawnmowers didnt have any warning labels. hell to start it you had to put your foot on the deck (with your other foot very close on the ground near the deck) and pull the rope straight up where the handle was maybe 2 inches away from the mesh screen over the flywheel :D dunno how many times i got skinned knuckles from that damn thing:p

typical of your short sighted view. you already answered part of the equation(court services), and since you can't figure out the rest as obvious as it is...

yes court costs--the greater frequency of bogus suits, the more court paid employees are needed. if i may digress, inmates(btw, expanding past the courtroom) are given waaaay to many benefits supported by tax revenue.

what of lost time and subsequent lost money in regard to jurors' time served? jurors=tax payer.

absolutely, corp attorneys and costs are figured into goods and services, but just like taxation, the consumer ultimately pays the "extra" what ever extra costs are entailed. if you think this isn't true, look into big corps workers' comp insurance.

i could go on, but it's pointless--real world vs idealism...they are not synonymous, nor are they compatible.

and of vetteowner's post...THAT story may or may not be real, but the point is factual. many labels have been added/changed in order to combat frivolous lawsuits, but more specifically the ignorance of the consumer!

Last time I was called into jury duty I was paid $30/day. $30/day * 3 days lost from work = $90.

$30? They shouldn't even bother paying for $30. Who goes to work to make $30/day?

and in an inefficient way ONLY govt can achieve, many called do not even serve!

Jury duty is NOT efficient. It's a requirement to serve your country, and you're expected to sacrifice to do it. It's an obligation as a citizen, like taxes.

I don't think I'd want to be tried in front of a jury of professional jurors...then again, the status quo is the people who weren't smart enough to get out of jury duty so that's not too great either...

I obviously wasn't smart enough. On the Jury Duty summons I sent it back stating that I would be unable to serve because being out of work for 3 days would cause a financial hardship to me & my family. Obviously not good enough. I got a court schedule in the mail 2 weeks later.

Pop was sent to a military base in Florida to investigate the problems with an accounting and finance division at an Air Force base.

He was the highest civilian member of the accounting and finance division of Tactical Air Command at the time.

The employees of the base had a 400% higher incidence of sickness and medical problems, all stress related.

No one knew Pop's position when he arrived.

Within 24 hours, the Colonel who was in charge had Pop in his office and he was verbally assaulting my father in every way, a vicious profanity riddled degrading attack.

After about 5 minutes Pop stood up and told him to shut the #$%^ up or he would be carried out in irons as soon as the MPs could get there. The Colonel was ordered by this civilian to call a number direct to the Pentagon.

The 2 star General who answered the phone told the Colonel to submit his retirement papers within 24 hours or he would be court marshaled immediately.

This omnipotent bureaucrat imbecile was putting good people in the hospital.

I fear the actions of untouchable government bureaucrats an infinite amount more than I fear the actions of legitimate profit driven corporations, who have to answer to their shareholders and justify expense decisions.

You don't hate corporations. You hate the people who have shares in those corporations, little people who rely on effective management to provide them with income and retirement security., while you live on a stipend that is provided on the backs of you children and grandchildren through deficit spending.

Twice in 6 months the local news media has jumped all over the story of a customer at a Cracker Barrel finding a dead mouse in their soup.

Both times it was a customer trying to create a media sensation though outright fraud.

As they say absolute power corrupts absolutely

If there is no financial liability to those who file vrivolous lawsuits, then we are condemmed to government by the attorneys, of the attorneys, and for the attorneys.

I see the day when the phrase of an old popular song becomes fact.

"They decide and the shotgun sings it's song"

Ah, just delete this post like the others, probably had a couple drinks too many tonight.

regards
Gary

Indeed, your state of mind must be altered - we have had government by the attorneys, of the attorneys, for the attorneys for a long time now. It's not an "if" at all. :(

I have a motorcycle helmet that I have wrapped with an entire roll of aluminum foil to wear to prevent my mind being altered by the gov't while I sleep.

;)

BTG, the court system overhead is there regardless of whether it's tied up with frivolous lawsuits or the routine millions of divorces and business disagreements that come through the courts annually. That's the real world. People can't settle their disagreements, so they need the courts to settle the lawsuits. A mere handful of frivolous suits go through the system, so it's not only ridiculous that you blow them out of proportion, but even more ridiculous that you accept made-up ones to "prove" your point.

??? Your own example proves government bureaucrats are accountable, too. Corporate bureaucracies are just as unwieldy as government ones. The larger the corporation, the worse the bureaucracy.

like the McDonald's coffee(spilling) law suit? i suppose it's just a fairy tail right?

um yep, but corps aren't neglecting tax revenue.

What's frivolous about third degree burns over 6% of your body from scalding hot coffee? The plaintiff was willing to settle for $20,000 to cover her extensive medical costs, but McDonalds wouldn't do it, forcing plaintiff to sue. You're quick to side with the heartless corporation and ridicule the injured party who was forced to sue to recover her hospital costs. If you think it's a waste of the court's time to settle a case like that, what kinds of cases qualify as useful uses of the court's time?

During discovery, McDonalds produced 700 other claims from people burned by its coffee. It knew its coffee was injuring people, and continued its dangerous practices, in spite of its knowledge. It kept its coffee at 185?F, 50? hotter than the average home coffeepot, a temperature guaranteed to burn any drinker's tongue. That's like Ford continuing to sell Pintos with the unsafe gas tank location, knowing that a few fatalities are the ccst of doing business.

A jury of peers found McDonalds guilty, and awarded plaintiff $200,00 in compensatory damages and $2.7 million in punitive damages. The judge deemed McDonalds conduct reckless, callous, and willful. So this is frivolous in your opinion. Thanks for letting me know where you are on the reality scale.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Pi...ms_and_scandal
However, a 1991 law review paper by Gary Schwartz[17] claimed the case against the Pinto was less clear-cut than commonly supposed. The number who died in Pinto rear-impact fires, according to Schwartz, was well below the hundreds cited in contemporary news reports and closer to the twenty-seven recorded by a limited National Highway Traffic Safety Administration database. Given the Pinto's production figures (over 2 million built), this was not substantially worse than typical for the time. Schwartz argued that the car was no more fire-prone than other cars of the time, that its fatality rates were lower than comparably sized imported automobiles, and that the supposed "smoking gun" document that plaintiffs claimed showed Ford's callousness in designing the Pinto was actually a document based on National Highway Traffic Safety Administration regulations about the value of a human life rather than a document containing an assessment of Ford's potential tort liability.

I followed up with the cited sources and it's legit - in fact, after following up it became clear (rather than merely questionable as Wikipedia says). Ford did nothing wrong. The scandal was just overblown media hype for the sake of making headlines and making money for some lawyers.

i wonder, as HC, has speculated, how many responsible jurors were on that panel? or how many were anti-corp types? or how many were anti-McDonalds? or how many dream of a "lottery" type payout? or how many voted a certain way to get the trial over?

see, unlike you, i consider REAL LIFE possibilities.

now, i wonder if McDonalds had complaints about their coffee getting cold before reaching it's "drinking" destination? you know, for those responsible drivers that would not drink and drive!

you really are pro big brother, pro lawyer, and VERY shortsighted. what a terrible nation we will become if we do not reverse that trend!

edit: HC posted at the same time as my last--his post is a PERFECT example of what i've been saying--real, alternate possibilities, muffled by a liberal media! precisely why i listen to conservative radio, read conservative writers, and yes, OH NO!, watch FOX news--'cause they DO report what others will not!(i do of course listen/watch the liberal view)

just like welfare fraud, frivolous lawsuits slow and take from those that have legit needs and suits. for those that would try to prove otherwise, well, that requires a willing suspension of disbelief!

HC,

A friend of mine worked for Ford in the 60s. He was an engineer, and quit Ford in disgust, vowing never to buy another Ford. He ended up working for Bendix. What did Ford do to anger him? It made a cost analysis to use $1.25 wheel bearings that it knew would fail after 25,000 miles, instead of opting for $2.50 wheel bearings that would have lasted 50,000 miles.

From Schwartz' analysis So, yes, Schwartz' analysis indicates the media may have overstated the case against the Pinto. It doesn't deny that Ford probably did a cost/benefit analysis, and decided a few deaths was the cost of doing business.

it seems toyota is learning this lesson as well. tho, i'm not suggesting that it was/is malicious negligence.

Doh. If there was any hint of jury impropriety, you don't think McDonalds' high paid staff wouldn't have challenged the verdict on appeal? You don't think they would have eliminated any anti-corporate jurors during voir dire? Why don't you wonder about something applicable to the discussion?

??? You're the one who brought up this case as your example of a frivolous lawsuit. Since it's your example, you should know that McDonalds argued its coffee customers bought its coffee to drink at work and at home, while its own research showed that customers actually drank the coffee immediately while driving. You'd also know, if you did your homework, that the plaintiff, Mrs. Liebeck, was a passenger, and wasn't drinking and driving. You gain no points by implying that your "frivolous" suer was irresponsible.

You finally got one right, despite it coming from your disrespectful ad hominem attack. I enforced the law for big brother, so you wouldn't have rat turds and maggots in your food. This is the thanks I get from you?

your short sightedness again amazes me. do you ever discuss anything beyond your OPINION of other's shortcomings? have you lived and worked among the working class? do you believe MDs did this maliciously?

i've served on a jury, and have seen first hand the emotion of people and how it clouds judgment. and i've tried to fully reveal my views [understanding the rational(or lack of) in criminal behavior] as well those on "do the crime, serve the time." to no avail, it get called anyway!

does passenger or driver make a difference? i simply was trying to dig deeper, something the media fails to do. and points? is this a game to you? i'm not looking for points, are you?

i got "one" right? trust me, i've made a lot of mistakes(and learned from them), but experience has allowed me to get much right. and there are those here that share my world view. i got news, this view is awakening around the nation, get used to it!

your dogmatic view apparently won't allow you to see that i'm anti-big govt, not anti-govt. yes we need laws and such, but we also need to make mistakes and learn from them or fail as individuals. there are so many leaning on big brother WHO NEVER PLAN TO WALK ALONE!

entitlements, illegit law suits, and over regulating will hurt us all--especially the poor! come on sentra seriously, it's time for a wake up call.

this thread like Sentra's idealism, is going no where. HC or Jay please close it!

That's also why my Cad has the stainless-steel top. I don't want the guv'mint trying to alter my thoughts while trying to slalom through rush-hour traffic!:) That could get really dangerous!

BTG,

Stop your name-calling, and explain how the Liebeck v. McDonalds case is an example of a frivolous lawsuit. There was a 79 year-old woman suffering third degree burns (the worst) over 6% of her body. She only asked for $20,000 in compensatory damages for her hospital bills. That's chump change for McDonalds - about a nanosecond's worth of its annual worldwide profits. Yet McDonalds refused to settle, forcing Liebeck to sue.

So why is this suit frivolous? Are you claiming Liebeck was an ambulance chaser? She didn't really suffer any harm? McDonalds shouldn't have to put up with lawsuits? Explain your reasoning.

https://overlawyered.com/2005/10/urba...s-coffee-case/

name calling? that's an odd description of my description(of your view).

gotta remember tho back in the 60's a car with 65K miles was considered high mileage. with today's technology we can build better spindles, hubs, and bearings with stronger alloys. that's why you can get 200K+ miles out of wheel bearings nowadays IF thier maintained right and driven easy.

kinda like comparing a car today with 150K-200Kmiles mid - high mileage and i know plenty of cars that wheel bearings crap out (both imports and domestics) at under 100K. (friends toyota corolla has been thru 2 on the left and 3 on the right and its got 148k on it) its not the best taken care of but dang haha.



also your comment about not wanting rat feces and other "stuff" in your food, wellll better think again:p

Here is a very brief sampling of the FDA's Food Defect Action Level list. They begin investigation when foods reach the action level they've set. According to the FDA, typical foods contain about 10 percent of the action level, but others say they contain more like 40 percent.

CHOCOLATE AND CHOCOLATE LIQUOR

Insect filth: Average is 60 or more insect fragments per 100 grams when 6 100-gram subsamples are examined OR any 1 subsample contains 90 or more insect fragments

Rodent filth: Average is 1 or more rodent hairs per 100 grams in 6 100-gram subsamples examined OR any 1 subsample contains 3 or more rodent hairs

CITRUS FRUIT JUICES, CANNED

Insects and insect eggs: 5 or more Drosophila and other fly eggs per 250 ml or 1 or more maggots per 250 ml

RED FISH AND OCEAN PERCH

Parasites: 3% of the fillets examined contain 1 or more parasites accompanied by pus pockets

MACARONI AND NOODLE PRODUCTS


Insect filth: Average of 225 insect fragments or more per 225 grams in 6 or more subsamples

Rodent filth: Average of 4.5 rodent hairs or more per 225 grams in 6 or more subsamples

PEANUT BUTTER

Insect filth: Average of 30 or more insect fragments per 100 grams

Rodent filth: Average of 1 or more rodent hairs per 100 grams

POPCORN

Rodent filth: 1 or more rodent excreta pellets are found in 1 or more subsamples, and 1 or more rodent hairs are found in 2 or more other subsamples OR 2 or more rodent hairs per pound and rodent hair is found in 50% or more of the subsamples OR 20 or more gnawed grains per pound and rodent hair is found in 50% or more of the subsamples

WHEAT FLOUR

Insect filth: Average of 75 or more insect fragments per 50 grams

Rodent filth: Average of 1 or more rodent hairs per 50 grams


looks like you can consume well nothing that doesn't already have some type of rodent or insect parts in/on it

if you grow your own food and harvest and bring it indoors your gonna find a spider, worm, nat, other bugs on them. what do u think the gigantic combines can pick up, grind up, and get all over your corn, beans, wheat (which goes into any thing that uses flour), etc. those things dont have covers nor do alot of the factories that process these foods(conveyor belts dont, mixing tanks sometimes do but gotta get ingredients in there somehow:p )

Yep. I remember when Smokey Yunick famously said if you wanted a car that could run for 100,000 miles, you'd better buy an American car. I think we can safely guess he didn't anticipate the enormous popularity of imported automobiles in today's market - at least not in their early years.

I worked my career with the FDA, about half as an Investigator, and the other half as a Compliance Officer and eventually Director of Compliance Branch in a District Office. Investigators conduct inspections, collect evidence of violations, and write reports. Compliance Officers determine the charges, develop the cases, and bring them to the US Attorney's Office. I've forgotten more about the law than BTG ever learned, I can guarantee all of you. My short-sighted view of the world also includes being an FDA National Computer Expert, giving speeches on computer validation in Englland and Spain, conducting inspections in Ireland, Israel and Germany, teaching data recovery from seized computers in Hong Kong and at the Honolulu Police Academy as well as at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, and a lot more.

FDA not only regulates foods and drugs, but also medical devices, biologics products (blood, vaccines, etc.), veterinary foods and drugs, radiation-emitting devices, cosmetics, import products, psittacine birds, pig bristle brushes, pet turtles, and much more. FDA inspects products that account for about 25 cents of every US consumer dollar spent.

The Defect Action Levels set tolerances for unavoidable agricultural adulterants - the ones that come from insects and rodents living in the fields where the crops are grown.

FDA doesn't tolerate any filth added to products after they enter the processing plant. One rodent hair or insect fragment coming from rodent activity or insect infestation in a grain elevator, flour mill, or bakery adulterates the food. Once the food leaves the field, FDA expects companies and individuals not to adulterate it.

Adulterating food before shipment in interstate commerce, while in IS, or after receipt in IS, are all violations of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (the law), found in Title 21 of the United States Code.

Darrell;

You seem to have a problem with the "all men are created equal" part of the Constitution.

I have forgotten more than you ever learned about cars and many other machines, because I used my intelligence (which is the equal of yours) to study machines intensely since I was in first grade. Read Rise and Fall of the Third Reich and the Bible by age 10.

You see, the problem some of us have with your posts is they are condescending in their presentation, which smacks of a belief that you are in some form beyond us and our capabilities.

Glad to know you were so dedicated to your craft, and meticulously qualified to make sure I ate the least amount of bug crap in my food.

I just wish that all of you career govt employees had used that same intelligence to keep us away from the deficit spending stupidity than may bury you 6 and my 5 grandchildren in debt service payments that will potentially drive the US to a repeat of the Weimar situation in Germany post WW1.

I look at things a little differently coming from the other side of the spectrum of occupations. I would never have wanted to be a bureaucrat, no matter what it paid, to much bull crap to deal with for me.

I wanted to fix cars, and wanted to own my own business. Maxed out my Social Security contribution at age 23. Got a real butt whooping trying to start a business from scratch. Did it again 10 years later.

Lived in the shop, in an unheated building, made less than 2k the first year, then gradually got it going to the point where I made decent money. I worked from sunrise to 8:30 PM 6 days a week to make it. Seldom took a shower before 9PM. That's right, 14 hour days. Many of my customers were from Langley NASA, some absolute geniuses, and the locality where I worked regularly scored top in the nation for academics.

These people brought their Nissans to me to fix, because they knew my principles, posted on the wall applied in every situation.

Care, Courtesy, and Common Sense.

Many became my friends, brought me gifts at Christmas. They understood the value of my principles and that I would never try to take advantage of the situation regardless of the cost to me personally. I would tell them when their car was approaching the point where it was not cost effective to keep it on the road, even though it might cost me a friend and a good customer.

Many would drive hundreds of miles to my shop, because they knew I would treat them like a member of my family.

In 30 years of working on cars I was never SUMMUONED to appear in court to answer for my actions. In other words those same customers never thought my actions were of anything but the highest order. That was their judgement based on their interactions with me.

I never had to summon any of them to appear in court either, almost never had a bad check, and when it happened it was taken care of immediately.

You see my friend, when you apply the highest standards to yourself, which is what the founding fathers ASSUMED was the case in men of integrity, there is no need for lawyers and bureaucracies to enforce laws, enacted to protect on citizen from the other.

The core basis of illegal activity is the feeling of one individual that the other individual is not worthy of their regard and compassion. A criminal, in his mind, has convinced himself that the victim is not worthy of his decency.

Do I think I have a superior intellect?

My answer would be that I have exercised my intellect for my whole life to maintain its sharpness, hopefully until I go back into the earth from whence I came.

Do I think that makes my knowledge superior to others?

Only if those same others have not exercised their own intellects to the same degree as I have my own.

To make the statement that I have forgotten more than you will ever learn, as I did earlier in this post, is an example of the attitude that leads good men down the pathway to atrocities, when they decide to commit crimes against their fellow men, or in extreme cases to actually exterminate the vermin that are those not deserving of their compassion and consideration.

One good bureaucrat (as I assume you were) and one good mechanic, as I know I was, have the supreme responsibility to keep the fragile fabric of this Republic intact and alive.

As we argue about who is the greater or lesser, we waste the energy necessary to make sure others live to the same standards.

We seem to share completely opposite political philosophies. Trying to convert one to the other is a complete waste of time, and demonstrates the basic flaw in our political system today. As a founding father once stated so eloquently, "if we don't hang together, we will certainly be hung separately".

The members of this forum gather here to share their opinions and experiences for the common good of others. In doing so we demonstrate a level of decency and compassion that should be the goal of everyone on this planet.

I just received a patent for my power train design. That represents a lifetime of intellectual pursuit of a goal of making this world a better place for our 11 grandchildren when we are gone.

Measure you accomplishments by that standard, and your intelligence by that yardstick.

Make the world a better place for those to come and those innocents who depend on us to improve their lives.

regards
Gary

Gary,

I do have a problem with the "All men are created equal" part of the Constitution, because it isn't part of the Constitution at all. If you want to discuss the law with me online, the least you can do is get your facts impeccably correct. We don't have the luxury of eye winks and other visual signals for nonverbal communication.

That's the problem with a lot of what's posted in this discussion. You people enter this discussion citing incorrect facts, and try to convince yourselves you're correct. If you can't even get the facts straight, why should anyone believe you? So your premise is we're all created equal, and have equal contributions to make. That's fine for starters, but it all falls apart when our contributions are valueless.

If we're talking valve adjustments with Nissan camshafts and I claim I used shims on my PL521's engine, you're going to immediately know "this guy doesn't know what he's talking about." That's the feeling I get when BTG tries to convince me he knows about the law from his single experience as a juror, v. my 30+ years of law enforcement experience. He didn't know the facts about his own example of Liebeck v. McDonalds Corporation, insinuating she was driving when she spilled the coffee. I asked him why he thought his own example was a frivolous lawsuit, and he regurgitated an opinion piece that ignores Snopes' fact-checking, and which itself references the Liebeck case being used in law schools around the country. Yet, despite the facts, BTG's source says the law schools are wrong, and Barbara Mikkelson is wrong. And BTG never answered my question of why HE thinks it was a frivolous lawsuit.

So yes, I may appear to be condescending. I'll call B.S. on anyone who doesn't have the facts to back his statements. Away from the forums, I enjoy a non-confrontational, friendly grandpa existence, and a lawsuit-free nice guy reputation, just like you. You can't judge people on the forums, except from their posts. I do that. You just did that.

"You people"

Hmmmmmm.

I haven't read anything posted by you in 2 years that was new and relevant information.

I have waded through a lot of crap posted by you, something I won't waste my time with any more.

As far as the rest of your "you people", I would suggest, since they don't live up to your standards, that they consider the same action.

regards to the rest
Gary

Gary,

you made more sense in that one post, than Sentra has made in ALL of his posts COMBINED(all posts included). and as for the constitution quote, well we know Sentra's "fact precision requisition." so what, it could be easy to mistake (in name) it for the declaration of independence, especially when sooooo many thoughts come to mind responding to his dogmatic view.

i'm still waiting for an example or quote of name calling and where EXACTLY i insinuated...wait stop...insinuated? that's an INEXACT, factless, interpretation of what i said...shame on this fact finder!

i too have a little experience w/ food handling, the FDA, FTC, DEA, etc. yes, the DEA is related, but i'd have to digress, so another time and thread perhaps. on THIS side, i've seen corruption and lack of integrity, mostly of the harmless kind, but there are serious issues that still need to be addressed in these entities. no links, no facts(to show), just REAL LIFE facts and observations.

i could post my resume, tho not as impressive, it has many highlights, but i am younger than you both. and like Gary, i have no aspirations of the politics of leadership unless, 1)politics is removed 2)the integrity and moral are paced ahead of me--i've tried to help(train) people, but i'm not a salesman. our entitlements have reached too deep into the population. my wife says that i'm too kind and weak in the dog eat dog workplace, but i say compassionate(meek not weak). and my work ethic and learning curve surpasses the intellect of most. i have co-workers and customers ask me for advice often. it's not my intellect--it's 'cause i care, i won't lie, and i study many subjects for a more successful life.

liberals like Sentra intrigue me, because real world experience often times trumps intellect--they can't seem to grasp that. my facts are not "off", it's the interpretation of my posts that is--i rarely post facts and fact-type links. remember, facts and studies are as imperfect as the individual noting them--IT CANNOT be honestly denied.

and yes, liberal types would get more respect minus the condescending speech. one thing i would like to convey to those opposite my view is this...humility is the greatest virtue!

https://mail.google.com/mail/?hl=en&tab=wm
 

‘Now there’s a man with an open mind—you can feel the breeze from here!’ - Groucho Marx

BTG,

We'd probably get along fine in real life. You seem to have good values, morals, and intentions. I can respect that.

What you lack is rational logic to support your beliefs, which are about 180 degrees from mine. Every time we disagree, I find you factually or knowledgeably lacking. You don't know the Liebeck v. McDonalds Corporation case that's your example of a frivolous lawsuit. You don't know the science surrounding your health food claims. You don't know the basics of scientific testing. When you don't support your positions with facts, you're out in fringeville with Orley Taitz and the birthers. They're positive they're correct, too, in spite of the facts staring them in the face.

So the problem here isn't that I'm condescending. It isn't that liberals are condescending. The problem's that people like you and Gary don't have facts to support your positions. You may be correct, but if you can't support your position with facts, you're correct for the wrong reasons. That's no better than being wrong.

The moderation team has decided that this thread has become too personal, bordering on political, and needs to at least be temporarily closed. Please everyone take a step back and remember why we're all here to begin with, and to express your views without the discussion becoming personal.