Using magnets to improve fuel economy
 

I started reading today about the use of magnets to increase fuel economy.

https://www.eureka.findlay.co.uk/archive_features/Arch_Automotive/magnets/Magnets.htm
https://www.tinet.org/~sje/mag_fuel.htm

(the last site there throws up a giant red flag as the first thing they claim is that the engine wastes 91% of it's energy on friction and other things. That just isn't true.)

I'll admit it, I'm about as skeptical as they come. Carl Sagan is my hero, and I tend to believe the old saying, "If it's too good to be true, it probably is."

Still, i'd hate to discount every theory just because it's too simple, or just too good to be true.

there are a few good minds on this site. Tell me why this wouldn't work, or why it would. It seems to me that most of the "test" cars are old 80s cars that do not have fuel injection. Would installing these on a fuel injected car have little to no effect?

I was reading a paper last
 

I was reading a paper last night about hydrogen production and it said cars are about 14% efficient "wells to wheels". They are comparing the potential energy stored in the fuel with the kinetic energy of the car. I don't think the number is far off from that perspective.

Their statement about "you pay more energy than you obtain" is true of any energy conversion process. If you got more energy out than you put in, it would be an over-unity device that is not posssible by the laws of thermodynamics.

I didn't take the time to read every word, but it sounds far-fetched. I'm not saying it wouldn't work - I'd be eager to test it out myself just for the heck of it, but I'm not getting their explanation of how it works.

Also their results section is very poorly done. It doesn't sound like they used any kind of standardized test among all the vehicles, and they don't even list what cars they tested. It just says things like "1970 Toyota".

only 14%, eh?
 

I remember reading elsewhere that cars were more like 60% efficient. I can't remember where I read that. Then again, energy is lost at each gear, bearing, and anything else that turns. Let's not forget the massive amounts of energy lost when the explosion occurs in each cylinder.

Anyway, here is another site i found:

https://www.smartcar-owner.co.uk/Low%20Cost%20Magnetic%20Fuel%20Saver.htm

I'd be very interested in testing this before my engine swap.

one thing i hate about these sites is the blatant disregard for proper testing proceedures. Most of their results are anecdotal at best. "I noticed the car was more peppy." yeah, okay. I'm also certain that 5-8% increase in mpg would probably fall within a statistical range of error. Hell, I vary up to 10% of mileage each time I fill up based on how much I idle and how many red lights I hit.

yet another reason to test these things using proper testing proceedures. I'll sign up for this one. In fact, I think that this would be a very good experiment to conduct, and easy to conduct.

I'll do this one right after acetone. Look for this in the experiment section very soon.

60% might be true for energy
 

60% might be true for energy generated by the engine that is converted to kinetic energy. A lot of energy is lost (lots and lots of heat) in the production of that engine energy that the true efficiency of the car from gas to wheels is much less.

Yeah, I don't like qualitative reports of results, too. 5 to 8% increase in mpg or performance is so small you won't be able to feel the difference. And why can't they say they got exactly 6.23% better, rather than a spread of 5 to 8%. That's a spread of 160%.

So I can entertain the theory that these molecules line up in a magnetic field, but what is stopping them from going right back to their non-uniform orientations after passing through the field? In fact the law of entropy states that everything will move towards a state of disorder.

haha
 

If you think that device is crazy, check out our sister site: www.gassavers.net

That's right, a $300 sticker that you put on your gas tank. It will shoot holograms into your gas tank, altering the chemical nature of the gas. It increases mileage and decreases emissions.

the magnets are neodymnium
 

the magnets are neodymnium (sp.?) they have been around for like 30 years, and people say that they increase mileage. i have never seen any evidence suppporting it though.

Hmm
 

If they are neowhatev I can't spell then it would seem like there's not so much special about them. I have heard a lot about them but I have a feeling I saw some consumer reports or government thing saying it was crap. Lemme look for it.

Okay
 

<a href=https://www.komotv.com/news/story.asp?ID=12382 target=_blank>Here it is</a>

I think this is what I saw about it before. Seems they work a bit. For some cheap magnets (if you get them yourself) that seems like not a bad thing. The little 1 mpg things add up, and on my 40 mpg car I would prolly see 1.5-2 instead of what the truck got.

they are actually relatively
 

they are actually relatively expensive magnets. lol. better to buy them from harbor freight as sold to increase mileage, than to get them on your own

Ah really?
 

I just remember looking though some physics thingy for magnets. I must be thinking of somethign different, haha, oops.

Just found this:
 

<a href=https://www.tinet.org/~sje/mag_fuel.htm target=_blank>Magnet Theory</a>
Check it out, it's good information. It seems like good thing to try out, and only for a few bucks too.

If magnets did help get 1 or
 

If magnets did help get 1 or 2 mpg on cars dont you think they would put them on cars from the factory? Because it is really cheap and easy.

Re: If magnets did help get 1 or
 

That is, of course, the logical argument that keeps me from trying a lot of these modifications. I remember a while ago asking the same thing about the "fuel vaporizer." "If a $100 contraption can increase fuel economy by 50%, why don't car manufacturers install them when they build the car?"

Using Occam's Razor, the answer is simple. The reason they arn't installed on cars is because they don't work. I guess the same can be said about magnets.

Seriously though, if Honda invests MILLIONS of dollars developing a car that gets 50mpg (the Civic Hybrid) why NOT just simply install simple little devices that do the same thing?

I guess this is where people argue about what works and what doesn't work. But then again, some of these tricks apparently DO work, as can be seen by people who achieve 40+mpg in cars rated to do 25 or so. It can't ALL be driving style.

So that brings me back to the point of the thread. I can't know for sure what works and what doesn't. I've never seen data either way. Some people say it works, others say, "no way." I'd like to find out for myself and post the results on this website so curious people in the future no longer have to rely on hearsay or speculation to determine if something really works or not.

Well
 

The way I think about it is this:

Why didn't VW make a fin like Ernie Rogers uses if it decreases drag and increase mpg by so much, when it would be easy for them to make? No one wants a car that looks weird or has a bunch of "abnormal" stuff on it that take replacing and what not. And for things like acetone, they just can't do that.

I can see how this line of
 

I can see how this line of thinking makes sense for fins, or even hydrogen boost generators.

Adding a simple magnet, however, wouldn't even be noticable. They could even make it inline with the fuel line and no one would ever see it.

I guess this is when the magnet people start with the anti-magnet government conspiracy. :D

Seriously though, I just wish some people would use real scientific tests to prove or disprove their claims.

Yeah really
 

I'm going to swing by radioshack one of these days when I'm getting into the acetone test so I can buy some magnets and have them ready by the time I start the magnet test, which will come after acetone. So I can make a DIY with pictures and stuff for putting them together and all that. I think I know what I'm doing pretty much now that I've read enough about it.

Hmm
 

Well, I stumbled across this and now I wish I hadn't trashed all those old hard drives, mehbe I can get some somewhere for free, prolly. This guy got a 10% increase and he's saying that the products you can buy are crap, while making your own will work, so that gives it some credit for me.

<a href=https://www.benzworld.org/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=1225917&posts=6&fid=14 target=_blank>Magnets on a 190D</a>

hmmm
 

I was thinking that it would be a good idea to glue magnets to the outside of the fuel filter to pick up any loose particles that might be floating in the gas. It might help to keep the fuel injectors cleaner which would improve gas mileage. This is actually what I had thought the magnets were used for before I had read up on them more.

I initially thought the same
 

I initially thought the same thing about magnets, but the idea of using them as another filter would only work on metals that are attracted to magnetics.

Welcome to the forum!

magnetic gasoline
 

I also read that gasoline is not attracted to magnets at all. In other words, it is not magnetic.

People have been talking about the amazing power of magnets since the 50s. People sell blankets with magnets in them that heal your sore muscles, etc. They have special magnetic headbands to cure your headache.

Now, I know enough about physics to understand that our entire existance is due to magnetic forces. The very existance of linear time is due to magnetic forces (ala The Theory of Relativity). So I can understand how there could actually be truth to some of this.

That being said, I have my BA in Psychology and am currently applying for graduate programs in Psychology. This doesn't make me an expert, but I also understand how the placebo effect works, and how believing something works usually means it will work (on some small level). Combine that with the above paragraph, and I can see how people would easily believe in the magical power of magnets.

Think of it this way. I have a refridgerator full of magnets... Nothing magical happens there. :-P

I wonder though... assuming that magnets actually work, why can't we construct a very small electro-magnet off of a 12v power source and have it switch on when the car is started? It will be more powerful than any of the other magnets available, and will be very cool to boot :P

Hmm
 

I read something about using electromagnets somewhere and there was some arguement against it. I can't remember if it was heat or power drain or something of that sort, I just dunno, I'll look for it after I get back from the doctor's.

I believe rare earth magnets
 

I believe rare earth magnets are stronger than any electromagnet you could create within reason (ie. not drawing tons of amps). Consider their effect "free" since they are not costing your engine anything to run them.

I do have some old hard drives sitting around. Might have to go crack one open later.

Could there possibly be
 

Could there possibly be something in certain types of gasoline that causes the magnets to do something? Like if there is alittle water in the gas there could also be iron along with that water? Or how about some of the gas additives that they put into the gas near winter? Maybe there is something in there that might be reacting with the magnets causing some people to get better gas mileage. Have there been any test involving straight pump gas to magnets or have they been using pure quality gas?

I dunno
 

I dunno. Those are good questions. Lots of states still use detergents, although all of them will be using ethanol (e10) pretty soon as the mbce or whatev it is gets outlawed. The reasoning behind magnets I have heard is it break up clumps of gas, but gas wouldn't clump, so mehbe things inside of it are clumping it up.

its more about the atomic
 

its more about the atomic level, not what you can see...

He was talking about
 

He was talking about breaking the gas molecules up, not clumping you can actually see.

a magnet wont be able to
 

a magnet wont be able to take apart a molecule either.

Hmmph
 

I don't mean that it will rip the molecule apart, just that if they are coming together through magnetic forces because of detergents or something, a strong enough magnet could rip it apart.

Woot
 

Got two damn powerful HDD magnets right now. I'll prolly dremel them down to just the magnet. I actuall smashed my finger when the went at each other, and it was really bad, these suckers are good stuff. I'll see if I can get some more, of course, but first I'll figure out if two is good for just the fuel line or what. I'll also post up a magnet thing in the experiment section with some pictures of how I put it together when I do.

*bump* Everyone needs to see this...
 

This just seems so crazy and off the wall to me. I'm still highly skeptical.
...its a video of a news station giving the grade of "pass" to a certain magnet system (they friggin use a dyno)

Get video here

Think we should call the news station and try to get copies of them dyno papers?
~Will
p.s.~The "belief" that you will get increased mileage is the only "force" working at its best...
and not sure but anyone using firefox may not be able to run this stream...

Damnit, I can't make it
 

Damnit, I can't make it load! But I'll take your word for it, and it would seem that there is indeed hope for magnets, woohoo, I should say, I might as well just throw mine on, but I wanna test them seriously.

Is there a website for the
 

Is there a website for the Energy Cell? I think $300 sounds a bit high though.

I don't trust that video. I
 

I don't trust that video. I would take more then one tank of gas to tell if it has an affect.

Yes there is a site for
 

Yes there is a site for 'Energy Cel'

https://www.myenergycel.com/Default.aspx

p.s.~whoever prettied up my last link, thanks!