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SVOboy 09-17-2005 04:40 PM

Hydrogen Generator!
 
Check it out, it seems to be interesting:

<a href=http://h2gen.info/ target=_blank>Homemade Hydrogen Generator</a>
<a href=http://www.savefuel.ca/ target=_blank>Buy one</a>

So, I know there is a thing about humifying, but I think it is worth talking about the way that the first is made and how much would that really cost compared to the second, if you get my drift. I dunno, it's a confusing thing to me, I dunno, I'd love to make one though.

Flatland2D 09-17-2005 06:22 PM

Get together drive contest
 
I'm in the process of researching these things. Despite the small amount of gas produced, many people have noted large increases in efficiency. 50 to 100% increases are talked about on the websites that sell these.

I'm specifically researching electrode materials, electrode shape and orientation, eletrolytes, and pulsing current instead of continuous flow. Once I get as complete of an understanding I can get of all these things I will create my own design and test its performance.

This sounds like one of the most promising mpg boosting ideas. I'm looking forward to this one.

diamondlarry 09-17-2005 06:37 PM

New Crude Oil Price Record - $76.70!
 
I wanted to make a comment on the Hydro-Gen in your link. I purchased one of these early this spring. Due to some problems I was having with my car I was not able to accurately document a mileage increase but it did seem to help some. I only used it for a short time because the electrodes eroded away to nothing. They were supposed to be high grade stainless steel. I used baking soda for the electrolyte and ran at 10-20 amps and they still eroded. They were a threaded rod that I believe may have only been zinc coated and not actually stainless steel. Otherwise, baking soda would not have eaten them up.

SVOboy 09-17-2005 07:19 PM

One of my Metros on Ebay
 
I think that the kit thingy is kinda a rip considering flatland's thing about how much mpg savers are costing us know-nothings. However, I do heartily look forward to hearing what he has learned about it, cuz yeah, I'm physched, he's a smart one...I'm about to email my physics teacher to bring me his copy of flatland on monday. Well, he's teaching me mutlivariable calc now, but he'll always be an ap physics teacher in my heart.

Flatland2D 09-17-2005 08:30 PM

So I am going to aero mod my car
 
Well I'm conducting some experiments right now. I'm testing different shapes of electrodes. So far, parallel plates seem to produce the most bubbles. I've tried rods and wire mesh, and I have some ideas I haven't tested yet. Hydrogen production increases as the electrodes get closer. It's very noticable at about a 0.25" gap. This is simply because the system draws much more current. Breaking down water is based soley on the number of electrons passing through the water. More electrons equals more current by definition. Voltage should play no part in production and that is the first thing that is different with what I'm doing. All the hydro-boost units I've heard of run on 12VDC. I don't see any reason why you couldn't run it on 5V or even 3V. That would cut power consumed by the unit by 75%. I think that's a good thing because some people have noticed their electrolysis system getting very hot. Heat may actually be a good thing in breaking down hydrogen, but that's another test. I don't have an ammeter here to measure how much current I'm drawing. I may have to borrow one from work when I come up with a good design. What would you guys say would be an acceptable load for a hydrogen boost unit to consume? 20 amps sounds like a lot, and I know some of the commercial units consume that much. The idea is to not consume power so fast that the alternator can't recharge the battery, too. How many amps can a typical alternator put out anyway?

I stopped by a science supply store today and found out I can buy sulfuric acid there. That has been said to be the best electrolyte by far, but it's also the most corrosive. Salt has been the best one I've used so far and might have some benefits over acids/bases. Salt will still corrode electrodes, but I'm guessing it's not nearly as bad as a strong acid or base will. So now it's just a matter of finding out what electrodes will not rust.

I'm glad you're going to read the book. I have to admit, the first half is sometimes a little boring. It's not till the second half that Mr. Square gets visited. But you have to know everything from the first have to really understand it all and his perspective. It's a short book though and shouldn't take long to read. It was my AP chemistry teacher that got me interested in the book.

SVOboy 09-17-2005 08:52 PM

FE Test after Wheels, Spoilers, Added to HCH II: Pics & Techniques:
 
Yeah, so I looked up some basic alternator crap and it seems like 75 is a good oem number, I also heard 25% of battery capacity but I'll be damned if I know my battery capacity (I'd rather figure out why my brakes quit today). However, if it seems advantageous to such a degree that lots of amps are necessary you can get yourself a high output alternator that will shoot out 150 amps, but the cost seems steep. I dunno.

dfoxengr 09-19-2005 07:33 AM

umh, yea, hahahahaha
 
tungsten should be a good electrode.
it is usually seen being used as an elcetrode for welding.


does the process of electrolysis for H+ production go something like this? i assume its something like current between the two electrodes in a water/baking soda(electrolyte) mixture produces bubbles which are pure H+?

Flatland2D 09-19-2005 10:32 AM

converting a manual to auto
 
Tungsten might work well but it's expensive. I just looked up the price for a 1/4" tungsten rod 8" long and it is $50. If it never wore away, it might be worthwhile, but you have to consider you'll have to save $50 in gas just to break in even. I'm really hoping the super high grade steel will work well. I will go to a place that sells metal working supplies to pick some up in the next few days. The guy next to the shop I work at is a welder, so he might be able to hook me up.

You pretty much have the right idea for electrolysis. You don't even need an electrolyte, but it makes a huge difference. Hydrogen is created at the cathode and oxygen at the anode. I believe they immediately form into their diatomic gasses. The nice thing about this process is that you're also making oxygen which is good for combustion, however you produce twice as much hydrogen as oxygen.

dfoxengr 09-19-2005 11:24 AM

Demand and FE
 
so you can run electricity through the water and produce H without anything else added right?
have you thought about copper as the terminals?
they probably corrode though huh.

do the added chemicals make better reactions then?

but twice as much H+ isnt a bad thing.
ive heard of people needing to separate the H and O? why is that. should you just plumb the line into the intake and use both gases as fuel?

are you using mcmaster to check the price?
i love that site.

Flatland2D 09-19-2005 12:56 PM

Yes,you don't need to add
 
Yes, you don't need to add anything to water to produce hydrogen, but it will make a big difference if you do. Salt dissociates into Na+ and Cl- in water and allows for easier flow of electrons. All the electrolytes work the same way.

Copper corrodes pretty bad.

It is suggested that you keep the H2 and O2 separate because igniting H2 by itself will be a much less violent explosion than an H2-O2 mixture. The difference is quite significant. The thinking is that a back-fire could possibly ignite the mixed gasses and possibly blow up your engine. I'm not sure how I'm going to set mine up. I'd like to design it for separate H2 and O2 gasses, but that complicates the design a little.

Speaking of back-fires, what conditions would cause it to happen? I would not worry too much about it on my car, but I just want to make sure.

Yes, I checked the prices on McMaster. That site is an engineer's wet dream.


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