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-   -   Ecu (http://www.fuelly.com/forums/f32/ecu-14685.html)

Chabadnik 04-27-2013 09:55 PM

Ecu
 
Doesn't ECU react to HHO by adding more fuel?
Wouldn't the AFR need to be leaned out? Timing adjusted, hydrogen is a catalyst after all? :banghead:

theholycow 04-28-2013 02:54 AM

ECU shouldn't add more fuel with HHO. Burning HHO is exactly the opposite reaction of making it; the energy that was used to make it is released and the molecules combine into water. The O2 sensor shouldn't see any change.

Chabadnik 04-28-2013 04:32 AM

Doesn't it see more Oxygen in the exhaust and therefore sees 'lean'?

theholycow 04-28-2013 06:47 AM

Why would it see more oxygen?

Chabadnik 04-28-2013 08:01 AM

ECU oxygen
 
Because HHO is part oxygen... Why would it not see it, because after combustion it immediately bonds back to water? Even if it doesn't see it, why keep injecting extra fuel if there is already increased power from 'extra' HHO, this is asking for leaning the mixture, no?
in any case, how is AFR leaned out by remapping? which AFR table is a root table, and generally what has to be done to actually change it if it requires changing more than one table?
Thanks for your response.

GasSavers_BEEF 04-29-2013 04:37 AM

If HHO truly did what all these people said it would do, the end product should be the same as far as exhaust is concerned. There shouldn't be extra oxygen in the exhaust if it is actually burned as a fuel.

if it were acting as an extra fuel source and burning more of the air coming in, the system would react seeing it as a rich condition and adjust accordingly. That is the beauty of a closed loop system.

Remapping an ECU can be done but it is extremely hard. there is quite a bit of code involved and each manufacturer has a different standard for that code. they also change it from time to time with newer models. That is the reason that those "super chips" guys (there are a few of them out there) have tuners for some cars but not all cars and nobody makes anything for a freakin' toyota. They are very funny about theirs. I know several guys that have burned up dozens of ECUs trying to hack into them.

No offense, I have yet to see anyone with any viable gains from HHO. There was a while back when a guy was playing with HHO and the EFIE modification and he ditched the HHO as he got just as much of a gain with the EFIE alone. he was just leaning out his mixture though ever so slightly. I am on a few different forums so I can't remember if it was this forum or a different one.

***edit***

and what's with the spamming? you have posted several different threads on the same subject in different subsections of the forum. I do hope you find the answer to your issue even if it isn't the answer you were expecting.

Jay2TheRescue 04-29-2013 06:06 AM

Here's my personal take on HHO. I for the most part agree with BEEF. Extra oxygen entering the cylinders via HHO means that more fuel SHOULD be added to maintain the proper air/fuel ratio. HHO in theory should act in a similar fashion as a cold air intake. For this reason, I don't see HHO as a viable option when the goal is increased fuel economy.

Chabadnik 04-29-2013 08:34 AM

I am 'spamming' because I am not getting the answers I am looking for.
HHO is one example, but concerning HHO, oxygen is not the only gas there is, there is also Hydrogen, a known catalyst, - well, we discussed oxygen in regards to oxygen sensor seeing it, or not seeing it.
If you know engine tuners/calibrators or whatever they are called these days, would you kindly refer me to them?
Thanks and all the best to both of you.

GasSavers_BEEF 04-29-2013 09:21 AM

have you ever thought you are "looking for" the wrong answers?

talk of HHO has been around for a while. If there were an easy solution, it would have already been established. the aftermarket seems to pickup on easy solutions and sell it to the masses (resistor modification on the IAT, caps on the dc circuit, magnets on fuel lines) though I will say many of the "easy" aftermarket solutions are quite fruitless.

have you noticed that you have the same 3 or 4 guys talking to you in all the threads you are posting? maybe we're on to something. I personally have been on these forums for some 5 years. I have seen HHO guys come and HHO guys go. never seeing any descent results.

The answer to your question about remapping an ECU is not a simple one. It is a very complex thing to do... period. If any idiot could remap their ECU then there would be a plethora of cars out there with blown engines or engines running like crap. The general public doesn't need to remap their cars so they make it to where they can't just do it on a whim.

If you ever do figure out how to remap a given ECU, a different manufacturer will be different, and so will different models of the same manufacturer. There really is no easy answer. I have friends that play with aftermarket turbos and they will tell you the same. Nobody will pay the price to professionally tune a car just to get better mileage. that cost could be in the thousands and would require quite a bit of labor to wire in a stand alone computer (and you have to buy the standalone). turbo guys trying to make huge numbers will pay that cost (and do) though there doesn't seem to be many solutions that don't require either a standalone computer or piggyback. I don't know anyone using a stock ECU to control anything. The manufacturers don't give you that capability for a reason.

theholycow 04-29-2013 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chabadnik (Post 169848)
Because HHO is part oxygen... Why would it not see it, because after combustion it immediately bonds back to water?

Almost right. Combustion IS the process of bonding it back into water. The O2 sensor looks for O2, not H2O.

Quote:

Even if it doesn't see it, why keep injecting extra fuel if there is already increased power from 'extra' HHO, this is asking for leaning the mixture, no?
Assuming that it works as one might wish it to (I share the skepticism expressed by the others, but I can speak theoretically), it wouldn't inject extra fuel; you are the one injecting extra fuel (two atoms of Hydrogen) along with the oxygen necessary to burn that fuel and produce water.

Come to think of it, after you split it into HHO, would the oxygen bind to itself to become O2 or would it just be O? I don't know if an O2 sensor would even measure any O (that could be an interesting question actually), and I also don't know if O will combine with the two atoms of H; the H might burn with O2 from the air rather than the O that came in along with the H.

Either way, if HHO is operating as promised then there's no reason to think that the ECU will inject more gasoline. If "there is already increased power from 'extra' HHO" then the driver will reduce air intake (and therefore fuel injected) by closing the throttle until only enough power is being produced. That is supposed to be the whole reason to use HHO.

In reality, any power gained from HHO doesn't come from magic, it comes from the alternator which drags more on the engine to produce the electricity used to split the water. That drag, in turn, means opening the throttle more -- and since the processes of splitting water and burning HHO back into water are not 100% efficient, energy is lost in those conversions, you'll have to produce more energy by burning more gasoline.

Quote:

in any case, how is AFR leaned out by remapping? which AFR table is a root table, and generally what has to be done to actually change it if it requires changing more than one table?
Thanks for your response.
The answer is different depending on what ECU you have. I don't know details about changing the tables but I can tell you about some of the tools used...

Modern GM V8 engines can be adjusted with an expensive system called EFILive. There are professional tuning companies that will tune you with EFILive for a few hundred bucks if you don't want to purchase the system yourself.

For modern Volkswagens there is a similar system called Vag-Com/VCDS. Vag Tool Finder may be able to hook you up with someone who has it and will help you. (Before posting this message I noticed your other post; this should answer that question.)

I bet similar stuff exists for other manufacturers.

Otherwise, you could go a different direction: Megasquirt. Then you're completely in control.

However, if you're not looking to customize everything and only want a simple way to destroy your engine by running very lean in an engine not designed to run that way, the term you need to google is EFIE (as mentioned by BEEF). I'm not sure how well they work since AFAIK they only affect the signal from the O2 sensors; the ECU should see spurious data from the O2 sensors and ignore them, using whatever good data it can find (MAF, etc) and throwing a code.


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