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-   -   How Good is HHO (http://www.fuelly.com/forums/f32/how-good-is-hho-14972.html)

TheMadProfessor 02-04-2014 09:43 AM

How Good is HHO
Hi there chaps and chapesses....

As you will see from my post in the new members bit, I am a new member....

So I have played a bit with HHO technology for a while, but purely on my own, and based on a few of the Stan Meyer PDF's.

I have now found you guys, so hopefully the party will begin.:eek:

I have seen a couple of posts where the whole subject of HHO is referred to as .... er.... a pair of hanging spheroids.... (nice bit of diplomatic speak there :D ). There are systems shown on youtube that are literally bits of bent wire.... And people speaking about how good their system is with no research notes given at all..... So this is not a surprise that people refer to spheroids

I think this is because there is little information as to construction (as in accurate engineering drawings) people making wild claims and the whole usual heap of pseudo science that surrounds such topics as this. At present, I am not converting my car, I want to look at benchmarking my system.

I currently have a 12 electrode, 48 element dry cell with a huge number of interference surfaces... I guess in the 80's...... The steel is seamless 316
I have used the conditioning method of preparation (rather I am in the middle of that process)

I plan on a series of tests based on using the same cell, but varying the input frequencies, waveforms and amplitudes. Each of these will be stored using data logging. I will be connecting a flow and pressure sensor to the system.

As each frequency is run, I shall compare current usage plus the waveform details with output flow and pressure.

These will be done at 20 degrees c with distilled water to begin with @12v input to the power supply

I shall repeat the tests covering a range of carefully measured electrolytes. At the same time I hope to be building a gas chromatograph to see what effect on the chemical constituents the addition of electrolytic material makes.

I shall then repeat the exact same series of tests at +1 v intervals up to 17v (don't want to go to a higher voltage... )

My old cell used to draw 5 amp at full tilt. I hope to be able to compile a range of values and then post a graph. This then allows us to see a steady range of data, created under controlled situations and repeatable. All based on exactly the same physical cell. I hope this will give some insight into how this system functions. And what variables have what effect......

I shall keep you all informed. I think the first series of tests will happen on Friday of next week.....

Charon 02-05-2014 09:21 AM

Ah, yes. The HHO business again. The "cold fusion" of fuel economy. Where does the electrical power used to dissociate water into a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen come from? The alternator? Which is powered by the engine? What powers the engine? The HHO? The whole thing is perpetual motion re-envisioned.

Distilled water is essentially non-conductive, which means no current passes through the cell, which in turn means no dissociation and no HHO. The electrolytes serve to make the water conductive. The amount of dissociation is pretty closely related to the amount of current. Ordinary tap water usually has enough dissolved minerals to conduct, and as more water is added to replace the dissociated water the concentration of impurities increases, at least until the sludge builds up in the bottom of the cell. Some energy is lost as heat, which warms the cell and represents an inefficiency.

When the HHO (an explosive mix, by the way) is burned in the engine the basic inefficiency of the engine means you get back about a fourth of the energy you used to dissociate the water. This is not an inefficiency in burning the fuel, but inefficiency in the heat-to-mechanical-energy conversion. The same inefficiency the engine has with its original fuel. The engine powers the alternator, which has an efficiency of probably less than 80%. The more current the alternator is called upon to deliver, the more power is required to drive it.

I wish you luck, but frankly I think you are wasting your time.

TheMadProfessor 02-06-2014 07:41 AM

Hi there, and thank you for your reply....

At least there is someone there who has immediately picked up on those bloody awkward things, what are they called? Oh, yes, Laws of Energy conservation :D

The magic claims, the unbelievable things that are called test cells..... and to buy the parts can be bloody expensive. I do think a lot of people are wasting an awful lot of money on something I have seen referred to as snake oil.....

I think that part of this is the 'experts'...... and as we all know... ex can mean used, and a spurt can be a drip under pressure....

However, I have an enquiring mind. And fortunately access to stuff..... :D

For example, I have managed to print all the plastic components. I have access to all the electronics I could need, and also access to test gear.

My primary concern is none of this can I run a car?
Can I get 5000 mpg?
Can I get to the moon?

First of all, I want create as much consistency as possible. Hence I have taken real care in constructing my cell. Whilst pressure testing, I have found a leak!!! This is upsetting, so I am currently printing up a shield to I can completely encase the top of the cell in epoxy. Then I know that flows and pressures are all based on a constant as far and the engineering is concerned.

I have a several different oscillators and pulse generators laying around, so I want to see what the differences are.

I think it is quite foolish for people spend such money on systems that have not been quantified in any way shape or form. And I remember when I accidentally blew up a bubble (first attempt at this, ever!!) wow, it was quite an incredible explosion. I now run a lot of very significant safety systems on the unit (Both mechanical and electronic). It is quite scary that people are playing around with this gas in often unsuitable conditions. The safety aspect is something I will explore once I have my stable source constructed and calibrated. But also the safety in some of the currents that systems are handling.... I have seen 200 and 250 amp power sources? why? I used to get unmeasured but quite impressive amounts of bubble from 5 amp.... But that is my impression of impressive.. not quantified, hence this series of tests)

But I guess I am in a slightly different position than most, both with my profession, my access to tech and also my reasons for doing this. Essentially, I want to see how much gas output I can get from a specific set of inputs. I have no requirements for the gas, just see how much I can make.

Secondly is to see how pure I can get it, and also what effect the electrolyte makes. I appreciate your comment about the fact DI is non conductive. But it is the only accurate way of benchmarking the system. I will be able to have a gas composition (quality) as well as the pressure and flow readings.

If 30% of the gas is (for example) co2 as a result of the electrolyte, what effect does that have? are the increase in gas production through electrolyte negated by the contamination of the gas? If you create 20%, more gas but it is now 30% CO2.... is that a help?

Hopefully this will lead to a real understanding of what is capable. This information hopefully will help people make informed decisions about what is happening.

Once I know what I can create gas-wise, I would like to maybe perform similar type of analytic testing on a small petrol engine and introduce controlled amounts of HHO with a known purity level to see what happens. The generator will be powered from an external source, just so that the only effect is the addition of gas to the fuel mix.... Just to see if there are any recordable deviations in either power, temperature, fuel consumption or emissions.....

I will post all my results in this forum, including video from either my workshop or my Lab depending on what tests are being run. I am not sure if anyone else has tried this kind of analytical approach, but hopefully people will find it useful.

And as far as wasting my time? absolutely not. I have one aim, and that aim is to gather a set of research data. It does not matter to me what conclusions are drawn from this data, it matters that the data is obtained....... Therefore I will succeed in my project no matter what the data shows or does not show about HHO......

TheMadProfessor 02-06-2014 08:39 AM

Just been out for a relaxing walk, and had a flash of inspiration. I have designed a simple comparative gas spectrum analyser..... I can use a single source white light, by use of surface silvered mirrors and prisms I can compare the source light and the light having passed through the flame simultaneously.

Ooh, I have a couple of prisms lying around and I am sure I could make a combustion chamber that uses a fixed reference gas as the oxygen in HHO should allow combustion anyway.....

more ideas to come... Possibly the capture of the spectrograph by high quality camera so I can visibly show the contamination.....

Charon 02-06-2014 08:55 AM

Allow me to suggest this article - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis_of_water - for a not-so-quick read. It might present you with some information to either reinvestigate or to save repeating the work of others.

TheMadProfessor 02-06-2014 10:18 AM

Thank you, I do appreciate this......

I would love to find out how much of this is achievable, how much is practical, and how much is complete spheroids :D

I will have a look at the link you sent and see what is said. It should be a quite interesting read.... Also I cannot wait to find out what results I am going to achieve.

Charon 02-06-2014 04:09 PM

Most of the stuff one reads about HHO involves an attempt to improve fuel mileage in autos. That being the case, the available electrical power is almost always 12VDC from the automotive system (yes, I know it might be 14 to 15 volts depending on the alternator and the voltage regulator). Seldom is any attempt made to separate the oxygen (from the anode) from the hydrogen (from the cathode) because it is easier to just collect mixed gases from the cell. If the electrolysis cell is fed with AC, as from an oscillator or transformer, then oxygen and hydrogen will be produced alternately from both electrodes. This isn't going to make much difference if the mixture is collected anyway. Depending on the frequency of the AC, there may be some differences from the time required for ionic diffusion in the aqueous solution. The mixed gases (HHO) are usually ducted back into the intake system of the engine. I suspect the quantities are pretty insignificant compared to the volume of intake air, but perhaps at engine idle speeds they might make a difference. In any case, lotsa luck with your experiments.

TheMadProfessor 02-06-2014 11:26 PM

Thank you Charon,

I have an experiment schedule, how fast I progress will depend on how long each step take to complete.

I guess I am in an unusual situation where I am looking at HHO generation not in relation to anything but itself. Once I know what I can produce, then maybe I can look at applications.... but that really is a separate set of experiments.

I want to compare PWM supplies with the Stan Meyer Gated DC Pulse Generator.
Input currents, output currents flow and pressure. Obviously each of these processes will take some time. But then I can see which produces most gas. I also want to see what differences the frequency and mark-space ratio makes to PWM type supplies and what the two differing frequencies make to the Stan Meyer device.

Once I have completed the tests above, I will be setting up an further experiment using a programmable wideband function generator to see if I can then improve on the production by the first two methods.....

I think that may well be about the limit I can achieve with the conventional fuel cell... maybe next year I shall build a set of the HHO spark plugs and play with those :D

I am quite looking forward to all this....

My latest modifications to my fuel cell are nearly complete, I now have a kilo of epoxy potting compound curing. I think that should seal things pretty nicely. I will post some photos of my fuel cell later today....

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