A New Car Versus a Used Car
 

Author: Timion, Matt
Publication: www.gassavers.org
Date: 09/07/2005

So you're ready to get rid of your gas guzzling car and get a more fuel efficient car. You have read ads, searched websites, and have found that your choice is between a new Hybrid or an older car that you would expect to see a 16 year old in. The choice is obvious, isn't it?

The real question is WHY do you want a more fuel efficient car. This will actually answer which car you should buy. If you are buying this new car because you want to save the ozone layer, cut down on polution, etc., then you should buy the new car. Some of these cars are as close to zero emissisions as possible. The electric cars ARE zero emissions.

If you are buying this car to save on gas money, then an older car may be for you. Before you start talking about your car needing more maintenance than a new car, you are absolutely right. But we need to first establish a new way of looking at gas mileage. Instead of talking about how many miles per gallon your car gets, let's start talking about dollars per gallon.

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that you want to buy a $20000 hybrid (that's actually pretty low for one of these things). Assume you are finance for 5 years at a low rate of 5%. Assume you have no money down, and have no trade in. These assumptions may vary, but they are typical of a lot of buyers. Your monthly payments will be $404.60. By the end of the loan you will have paid $24,300 in car payments. Assume you drive the "typical" 12,000 miles a year. over five years that is 60,000 miles. Your actual mileage may vary. Based on purchase price alone, you are paying 40.5 cents per mile you drive.

And then there is insurance. If you finance your car, you must pay full coverage, which will probably run you around $100 a month (more if you have a bad driving record). your $100 per month over five years will cost you an extra 10 cents per mile.

So with the new car you are already paying more than 50 cents per mile you drive. Assuming you get 50mpg in your new car, and assuming gas stays at $3/gallon, you will pay 6 cents per mile. so far we're at 56 cents per mile, and that's assuming we drive 12,000 miles a year. If you drive less, the price per mile goes up.

And then there are tune ups, oil changes, tire rotations, etc. I imagine you're looking at around 65 to 70 cents a mile after all is said and done.

Suddenly the new car doesn't seem as affordable.

Buying a used car for (let's get a nice one) $5000 will grant you a few priviledges. You will have it paid off much sooner, if not right away. let's assume you are able to buy this car for cash. While $5000 is a lot, it isn't unreasonable to assume that someone could pay cash for it. A $5000 car by the same standards will cost 8.3 cents per mile. Insurance will be half (if not lower) of full coverage. Add another 5 cents. The older car may not get the same fuel economy as the new hybrid, so let's assume you bought a car that gets 35mpg. At $3/gallon your cost per mile is 8.5 cents. This figure can change with tips and tricks found on this website. So we're paying about 22 cents per mile on a $5000 car. Add oil changes, etc and we might hit 30 cents per mile.

Accounting for all spending, a used car is cheaper with gas and service than a new car without gas, service, etc.

More ways to save money are to do your own oil changes, tuneups, etc. Not only is it faster, but it is much cheaper to do it yourself.

The bottom line is that if your goal is to save money, a new car is not the way to do it. The technology may be great, and the status symbol of driving a new Prius may be great, but while your ego may be bloated your wallet will not be.

If you disagree with me, please express your disagreement. I will happily consider your argument as I drive around in my 89 Honda Civic that I bought for $2000 (which I overpaid for) that gets 38 miles per gallon.

Then there is the "free" car...
 

like I received. Non-running 89 Mercury Tracer. (from family)
I had to find a computer, (other years work or we would not be
discussing this!) change a rear strut, and new tires. I would
suggest finding certain older cars and amking a few improvements,
I'd say more but the wifey needs the terminal :)

Even stronger agreement
 

One sign of maturity is that you no longer buy things for "prestige". Happens to most of us at age 25-30. There are no brownie points for buying new. I've owned a dozen cars or so, have never purchased one new, and the typical reliability that I enjoy is better than most folks I know who bought new.

A few colleagues have Toyota Priuses, and are terribly disappointed in their fuel economy. Even when they're trying all manner of driving techniques, they are unable to get past 50MPG. However, when I owned my '86 CRX HF, I routinely got 55 or so MPG, and this was well before I started "techniquing" my driving.

As of this writing (March 2006), you can purchase a 1996 Civic LX Coupe for about $5,000. A buddy has one, he achieves a legitimate 48 miles per gallon - actually besting our other buddy with a Prius.

Doing your own maintenance is a good idea, if you are handy. Beware that all of today's front-drive cars are a pain to do belt changes on - you have to remove an engine mount on most of 'em. The dealers, and the mechanics, charge unbelievable amounts for "routine maintenance". Most Hondas and Toyotas require a timing belt/water pump/accessory belts every 60,000 miles, and that's typically a $600 service. So, you're stuck with 10 cents a mile just in "scheduled maintenance". I can't lie under cars for any length of time any more without throwing my back out, so I have to pay to have these services done. I still do my own oil changes. I reduce that cost by doing them less frequently. Based on recommendation from an old college pal who now designs engines for GM, I change the oil when it appears dirty, which seems like about every 10,000 miles on our Civic (1997, 120,000 miles). I adopted this philosophy about four cars ago, and I have used it to take three cars to at least 280,000 miles, and by that age, not one of them had required any internal engine work.

Bear in mind also that the manufacture of a car consumes a huge amount of energy. I did this analysis a while ago, and it comes down to this - no matter how you spend a dollar, you're consuming about the same fraction of a barrel of oil, because the cost of most things comes down to energy input. If you pay less for something, then you forced less energy usage in its construction.

Glad to see you here Dave.
 

Glad to see you here Dave. I also used to get 55MPG routinely with my 85 CRX HF. But also be aware that the Prius is capable of extrordinary FE if enough effort is put into it. In the summer my Prius is worth 70-80MPG on my daily commute. In the winter it drops down to 65. It ain't easy, but it is certainly doable.

My wife is driving the Prius this winter and her last tank was 51.5 MPG. Not bad for someone who doesn't put much effort into it. But ever since I have been beating her with my 13YO Del Sol, she has been trying harder.:)

Whoops - I meant "HX" Coupe.
 

Whoops - I meant "HX" Coupe. The LX doesn't get the high MPG, but it's cheaper. I paid $3800 for my LX sedan recently in perfect shape at 120k miles.

My 55MPG on the CRX was while driving the pants off. I wonder what I could have done had I then known about driving techniques.

I agree
 

I bought my LX sedan 3 years ago and payed 3,000 for it. I got quite the deal. But a year later, I had to pay for new CV joints, as the first set had the rubber seals bust flinging grease all over the wheel wells, not a pretty site. So when you buy a used car, check those for cracks, and wear....

If you actually want to save money, you must buy a used car. You would have to drive the wheels off a new hybrid to get the money back for the technology.

Personally I have been keeping my eye on those 200,000 mile plus Honda Insights...their price has been coming down considerably. I have seen many around the $8,000 dollar range - and a few lower...The only thing is, you really couldn't do your own battery pack service. (those batteries are quite expensive!) I think it would be worth looking into..

Old vs new
 

Other than my Honda XR650L, my last few vehicles have been new full size trucks.

I got hosed by the salesman who claimed I'd get 25 mpg with my 2004 diesel F350. My best tank was just 20.7 of highway driving. I got better mileage with a 1995 gas V8 Chevy 1500! I wish I still had that truck now. I'd have no car payment, and I'd be paying less per gallon for gas than diesel.

New trucks have gotten heavier, bulkier and have bigger engines. I'll never buy another new full size truck until it's EPA certified over 25 mpg.

Fat chance of that happening soon. The GM GT900 platform is a porker, Ford just finished its designing the F150 at nearly 5000 pounds bone dry. Nissan's Titan is titanic, and Toyota's new Tundra has gained middle-aged flab. Forget Honda's Ridgeline, it's not a real truck, except for the lousy mileage.

My money is staying in my wallet.

Sludgy, My uncle just
 

Sludgy,

My uncle just purchased a new Excursion (maybe it was used, dunno?) Anyway, that thing can seat about 10 people comfortably and is probably about the same size as a Hummer. I believe it's a V10.

It's diesel and get's better mileage than his previous car, a smaller V8 gasoline SVU. I wish I could remember the type of SUV it is, but I forget.

The difference between diesel and gasoline is night and day. When it comes to trucks it seems that diesel is the way to get higher MPG. Then again, you already knew that. :P

Matt,

You have a good point... Though I should point out that my used Honda Insight has the highest MPG on the market and only cost $6500. Add the fact that I save $1200/year in gas (compared to my last car) and saved $800 (in taxes) at the DMV...it should work out to be a pretty sound financial investment. (even if it doesn't drive any further.) It was just one car on the spreadsheets and I mostly bought it to save money.

Then a surprise hit me... I have never loved a car so much. I feel like an environmental evangelist. I ended up buying a gauge to go in the house an monitor electrical usage and now run my home and business entirely on wind power. I sold my toy convertible (a cheap Lebaron) because I couldn't deal with 23mpg, etc. This all started when I bought this silly car.

Your results may vary...but somehow this car activated a gene that I didn't know that I had before. It excites me on a technology, environmental, and penny pincher way all at once.

Used will always be cheaper than new, But it should be noted, If you buy a new car and keep it for 10 years, and or drive it for 200k miles the cost per mile goes down. so a new car is not a bad deal if you plan to keep it for a long time/or drive a lot more miles than average per year.

I'd rather just convert one to electric. Per mile, it's the cheapest way to go if you design it right. Virtually no maintenance(cept for tires and stuff like that), just very low 'fuel' costs and periodic battery replacement. With insurance and vehicle taxes, it's possible to have lead acid EVs cost in the neighborhood of 20-25 cents per mile. It's just that the up front costs to build one automatically push lower income groups away.

More things I like about used cars are used parts and the vast amount of DIY knowledge available from sites like this one. :thumbup: Someone else out there has not only solved most problems, but blogged it too. It makes it a lot easier, cheaper, and faster to fix and maintain things. :cool:

Compared with the alternative of making appointments, getting rides from others for dropping my car off, scheduling warranty work that they "don't seem to get to" for a whole day (why make appointments!?), cost of things not covered, etc, it's a no brainer for me.

Only where the car is. Somewhere there has to be a powerplant of some kind supplying the electricity. Depending on where you live it might be pretty clean energy, or it may be coal.
Either way, electricity is still cleaner than gas though.

I'm going to go out on a limb though and say that buying a used car may actually be cleaner than a new car due to the pollution caused in making a new car. There are so many used cars on the market that a great many cars which are still great running transportation (and some very fuel effecient as well) are simply scrapped because the owner is tired of trying to sell it. I see this all the time at a U-pull junkyard I go to. Each of these cars could easily give several years more transportation and many more given TLC. Think about it - if every person in the country kept each car they own 1-2 years longer, how many fewer new cars would we need? How much pollution would be saved?

Some day I'd really like to try running the numbers on the '70 Cadillac I own. Calculate the total pollution generated if you had bought it new and driven it for the last 27 years verses buying a new Honda Civic (CVCC back in the day) every four years and driving the same miles. Include all the pollution for all raw materials (steel, plastic, oil, etc) all the way back to when we pulled them from the Earth. Something tells me that at the least the Caddy will be a strong contender in that contest.

Good Point
 

Good point, Matt. Since the Integra has long since been a "clean slate" (no payments), any routine maintenance or repairs are much cheaper than a regular monthly payment -- so it continues to pay for itself.

Quattrodave has a good perspective as well -- there's a point where you feel that you don't need the latest-and-greatest. It's sound financial advice not to have to finance an expensive vehicle over several years. Silveredwings: I completely agree with the DIY factor -- I've learned more about cars in general from repairing my own, than I could have from reading a book or magazine. I also have to attribute the help from folks at this site. :thumbup: It's fun, saves money, and is educational.

Of course, the drawbacks to older cars are emissions and safety. Newer models tend to have stronger impact protection and accident prevention technology. But even some models as old as 10-years have ABS, and dual-airbags. Also, if you keep an older model in good working order and achieve above-average FE, then emissions should follow suit.

RH77

Hello -

I think New vs Used depends on your skillz. If you got the skillz to maintain the car or you have access to an honest mechanic, then a used car is great. A used car that is well maintained is a form of Recycling. A car is such a huge industrial big ticket item, that getting every drop of usefulness out of it is better for the environment.

All of the arguments as already stated are great. My personal equation is as follows :

1 - Assume a small monthly payment on a new car, say $200/month.
2 - Multiply that by 12 months and you get $2400 per year.

Assuming that the used car costs less than $2400 in additional payments over and above regular maintenance, then the used car beats the new car. Notice I am not even including the savings in registration and insurance costs. I think that the above equation is very generous in favor of the new car because I think that typical new car payments are much higher than $200/month.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...obot_Devil.jpg

Now, on to my other job as the Robot Devil's Advocate :

The only drawbacks to used cars are safety and emissions (EDIT: RH77 beat me the keys). Over time, emissions standards and safety standards tend towards improvement. If the car is too "out of date" to meet your personal standards, then you may choose to bite the bullet and go new.

Another legitimate reason to go new is a function of your needs. A new car is supposed to be "trouble free" in the sense that you don't have to worry about what to repair or replace next. That "lack of worry" does have value to people, and is something that alot of people pay (alot) extra for.

Lastly, your job may require it. If your job requires that you "maintain an image", then you may need a new car. If a person is trying to sell Real Estate, then they may need to have a "new car" for the sake of competitive advantage. I am not saying it is good, but I am saying that a person may deem it necessary.

CarloSW2

Approxamately 12 barrels of oil are consumed in the construction of a new car.

Somehow that seems low. Does that include the energy used by the mining equipment that got the ore, trucks that took the ore to the metal factory, the factory that processed the iron into steel, trucks that shipped it to the auto maker, and so forth?

Probably. Industry is way more efficient than consumer crap, on a scale of an order of magnitude or more imo...

Hmm remember in 12 barrels of oil, there is 504 gallons :O

No more new cars for me...all of mine will be "used", or classic. Newest one I'm interested in getting would be a '63 Galaxie.

Yep :thumbup: lots less mystery when buying a used model. Chances are if that model had a common failure point like weak tranny, likes to blow headgaskets etc you can do some research and know to move on. Plus I've found when shopping 5-7 year old used cars that after seeing 10-20 examples I have a great idea how they'll last overall.

Maybe not the best example for gassavers, but a few years back when shopping for my current 4runner I couldn't believe how nice and solid all the ones I looked at were. Most had 120k miles or more, and the only real 'issue' I saw on any was worn leather on the drivers seat of on e that was closer to 200k. I bet all the civic guys on here would say pretty much the same thing. :)

Kind of off-topic, but I bought my 97 4Runner when it was 5 years old (owner had JUST paid off) with 100,095 miles and it now has over 205K miles on it. NO PROBLEMS. It was better maintained by the previous owner than by me and is great. The 4Runner is one of the best mid-sized SUVs that you can buy, IMO.

Staying to topic, Id rather get a used (JUST off lease to get rid of reliability argument) Corolla than a new hybrid. As sweet as the Prius is, I cant justify an extra $7K over the Corolla which is beefier (like WE really care about HP), but gets good mpg on highway and will be cheaper to run when you consider that the extra $7K will NOT be realized in gas savings even with $3 gas. You have to drive over 200K to get back the $7K in gas and thats if you compare 52mpg Prius highway vs 38mpg Corolla highway. We all knwo that neither car gets those numbers but the Prius falls more short of its numbers. I ran these numbers a few years ago when the second generation Prius just came out an I was salivating. Then I decided to run the numbers to see how much financial sense it made. This test did not take anything else into consideration. This was new Prius v Corolla.

On another note: New car EPA estimates (before revised 2008 EPA) are much worse than those of older cars that gave more reasonable estimates. I was getting over 19/20 mpg combined in my 97 4Runner (rated at 17/19) which had 200K miles. I was surprised to get BETTER than EPA ona car with 200K miles. This was BEFORE I even heard of gassavers.org and with driving 100+ miles daily at high speeds. I prob averaged about 75 mph when on highway and would peak at about 80. Similarly I was getting about 29/30 mpg on my 98Camry before I stareted driving for FE and was hitting just over 30 hwy when the 98Camry is rated at 23/30 (22/28 NEW EPA). So just like the 4Runner my 98Camry was getting its stated mpg. Keep in mind my 29/30 mpg in my camry is combined mileage not highway. Try getting 41mpg with regular driving in todays Corolla. Good luck !!! Remember I said regular driving. I think older car EPAs are not as exaggerated as todays, probbaly because people look at that moreso than years ago. My .02

On the other hand, Id LOVE to have a Prius right now. High $$$ is drawback.

I've been driving 10+ year old Corollas since 1990. i had a 83 then a 87 now a 90. I have averaged including purchase price, all maintanance and repairs 5 cents a mile. This does not include DMV or insurance but everything else. Let's see anyone beat that with a new car. I've had to be towed once in that time due to a bad starter and auto trans, no bump start.

I'm switching to CRX HF now due to fuel prices. I bet I'll not go over 7 cents a mile with this car and get better mileage than a new Prius. Of course the Prius might be cheaper in the long run if I got 360000 miles out of it with no maintanance. Also I'm self employed and will write off all my work mileage at 48 cents a mile

I drive a 1997 Ford Escort. I've owned it for the past year... the following have been my costs so far:

Capital Expense - 5,760: Includes vehicle purchase, all service (90% DIY) incl. oil changes

Insurance expense (for a year) - $1000.00
Distance Driven - 49000 km (30000 mi)
Average Fuel Efficiency - 8 l/100 (pre-hypermiling!)
Average fuel cost - $1.00/litre
Total fuel cost - $3920.00

TOTAL COST OF OWNERSHIP - $9,580
COST PER KM - $0.20
COST PER MILE - $0.31

This compared to what I almost bought (2005 Golf TDI)
Fuel economy - 6.9 l/100
Cost - 26,000
Financing @ 4.0% APR, 4 years - $586.06/mo or $6082/yr
Insurance - $2000 /yr
Fuel cost - $0.80 /litre (diesel remember).
Distance driven - 49000 km
Maintenance cost (oil changes only) - $200.00
Fuel cost - $2704.80

TOTAL COST OF OWNERSHIP - 10986.80
COST PER KM - 0.22
COST PER MIL - 0.36

So for me, doing service DIY, a used car makes more sense... however, for your average Joe a new car may be more sensible.

The lending institutions are going to hate YOU!
No argument here, its perfect logic and your math is great too.

During the original gas crisis in the 70's I drove big cars. People were giving them away and with the cost of fuel they were more economical than a Honda Civic or a VW Rabbit. As you said no intrest, full coverage, or payments.

Had a neighbor at the time wanting to trade in her Aspen wagon(paid for and fairly new), for a Rabbit. They offered her half the cost of the Rabbit for her Aspen on a trade in. I pointed out that even though the Rabbit would double her mileage, $3500 would buy a lot of fuel. And with a family of four who traveled they'd be alot more comfortable. They kept the Aspen

FE is great but there are times as you have wisely pointed out, you need to weigh all of your options.

Another advantage of buying a used car with cash on the barrelhead is that you, rather than the bank, owns the car and you can modify it to your heart's content, which you couldn't do with a bank financed car.

Thats what you think! hehe!

I've heard this so often, it now turns my stomach. Gas doesn't come from the ground ready-to-use neither. Think about where it comes from (the Gulf) and what transports it (huge deisel tankers). Then it get refined (tons of electricity) to turn it to fuel. Then its pumped or trucked to various parts of the country. Then trucked to the station. Then you pump it in your car and THEN you start polluting. At least with EV the pollution sort of ends with the charging of the batts.

Actually, it ends when we recycle the battery.

Just to play the devils advocate, you can do the same with the electricity that the majority of us receive. Lots of people get electricity from a gas fired powerplant and that gas has to go through the same refining and transportation process. Coal and natural gas both require processing and transportation as well. Wind, hydro and geothermal are all nice clean sources, but rely on local availability of the appropriate natural resource in sufficient quantities to meet energy demands.

Domestic cars
 

it seems a lot of the members on this site frown on domestic vehicles. buying used domestic vehicles for this member has immediate(lower retail) and long term(cheaper parts) benefits.

not busting on imports(do realize overall, quality is better), but domestics have served me VERY well. doing the maintenance on domestics is easier for me also, since i'm not overly mechanically inclined. water pump, radiator, alternator, etc. replacement are ALL cheap and easy to do for example.

price and maintenance aside, size and safety is another concern. my kids are getting to be almost adult size, so econo boxes are out. with safety, all things being equal, larger cars are safer as well. a local mechanic/researcher spoke on the radio about manipulation of stats to promote sales of economy cars. it's basic physics really--more mass(again all things equal) equals more safety. i've read trucks/suvs are under entirely different crash "rules" tho.

just want to reiterate, i'm not downing imports. just doing the best i can with what i have and know, which is domestic vehicles. my cost/mile(tho i've not figured it) prolly rivals many of the imports here especially if cost/mile/weight of vehicle is considered, not to mention the % of FE over EPA.

isn't that why we're here?

Just my perspective,

I had a discussion about environmental change with a lady, she said she had to drive an oversized SUV BECAUSE of her kids size. I thought it was outrageous to screw your kids future and blame them for it in one stroke.

Safety, yah, sure, I'm sure those americans overseas feel real safe because of our addiction. Were just making all KINDS of friends around the globe aren't we.

Mine too
 

No offense as well, but size doesn't matter.

I'd rather drive kids around in a newer sub-compact than an SUV or larger sedan. Accident avoidance, ABS, Stability Control, Crumple Zones, Airbags, etc... it all makes cars safer.

I'd even put kids in the back of the Integra, and it just has ABS and some frontal airbags.

Significant Mass-to-Mass collisions of large to small vehicles are more than likely because of personal decisions by people to have large vehicles despite anything but vanity. And the cycle continues.

I choose to break the cycle.

I've worked as Medic and Firefighter in the past. Many of my calls were to MVA's (motor vehicle accidents) as I had medical and extrication certs. A bad accident is just that -- bad. After several accident scenes, it didn't matter what kind of vehicle someone was driving: unless it was Motorcycle vs. Semi -- stuff like that.

Long story short, the engineering of newer cars in the physics of minor-to-moderate collisions, despite the size or brand, will generally protect passengers if properly restrained. If you're worried about the Hummer vs. your vehicle in a side-impact, research the odds of that kind of collision, and then ensure you have side-impact airbags. A Corolla is safer with side-bags than a Crown Vic without.

Food for thought (from experience, and what the "Jaws of Life" have spoken out loud over the years).

RH77

bowtieguy -

Yes, but I think the MPG rock stars are mostly the foreign cars :

Geo Metro (aka Suzuki Swift)
Honda Civic Hybrid
Honda CRX HF
Honda Insight
Honda VX
Smart forTwo
Toyota Prius
Toyota Yaris

However, CO ZX2 has proven that the Ford ZX2 is a winner, and there are Saturnians like me here.

I definitely agree that the domestics have a parts advantage.

The SUVs win the "F=MA" argument, but their higher Center Of Gravity (COG) means they are not safer to drive. And of course, they never win the MPG argument. Unless you live in the boonies where the roads are terrible, I think it's hard to justify an SUV. A "normal" mid-size family sedan should be the biggest car that you need.

The "cost per mile" is definitely an important. Here are some examples :

Your Driving Costs - Includes commute cost calculator (woo hoo!)
https://www.piercetransit.org/rideshare/costs.htm

How Much Does it Cost to Drive? (2006)
https://www.pacebus.com/sub/vanpool/cost_of_driving.asp

AAA: Most costs of auto ownership rise this year
https://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/...hip-cost_N.htm

CarloSW2

1989, no airbags, SUV, a lil higher than normal center of gravity, poor gasmileage. but fun to drive.
:( i should really get a newer car to drive lol.
whenever i have room in garage...

skewbe,
i agree, "i NEED an suv" is a sad excuse unless it is REALLY needed. mountain dirt roads, towing etc.
but this would require mom and dad to share the same vehicle. God forbid if dad did the working(towing) and mom had an AWD mid to full size car to taxi the kids.

rh77,
remember, ALL things being equal. that includes (besides safety features): driving style, speed of collision, area of collision etc. not to mention the age(and subsequent reaction time) of the driver.

it's prolly fair to assume most small car owners drive more conservatively. i drive a lot as you do, and i see mostly larger cars/suvs moving agressively. tho younger "fast and furious" types do their fair share.

cfg83,
thanks for the props.

would you believe i've spent less than $8k the last 12 years on purchasing vehicles(for my wife and i). it wouldn't have been that much except that we each had irresponsible drivers total a car each.

VERY low maintenance costs in those 12 years. ALL GM vehicles.

No need to limit it to AWD mid/full sized. People are dying, we can ration ourselves better than that, even if the polititians want us to be good little consumers.

I've offroaded in just about everything imaginable, and fwd econoboxen are quite capable off the road. Not bigfoot style, but my econo boxes have seen more mud/whatnot than %99.999999 of the AWD vehicles out there.

And of course they can be built up into something more durable if necessary :)
https://www.fordfestiva.com/FOTM/306_...s/image003.jpg

just for the heck of it i looked up the specs for a honda accord(the closest thing in a honda to my olds). what i found is that in my opinion i bought the right car.

the v6 accord was similar to my olds as far as mpg. even the 4 cyl was not a great improvement especially considering the gap closes almost shut because i drive mostly hwy miles. this is where the GM 3.8 shines.

my price was 1/2 the accord and maintenance is WAY cheaper. so, i'm gaining back my FE difference and then some!

Re: A New Car Versus a Used Car
 

bump...

starting to change my perspective a bit. i now have owned a toyota and 2 hondas. it seems as tho as they(my imports) reach high mileage, fewer issues occur.

i see myself continuing to buy used over new indefinitely. at least used imports yield a 100% domestic sale. :D as for parts, they can be import for any model...'cause i don't see myself frequenting dealerships for parts either!

edit: btw, the AT accord has outdone the olds in mpg--likely because of the better yield in the city.