Block Heaters
 

Anyone use a block heater? They seem like a good idea in the cool and cold months for fast warm ups. This artical has some good info on block heaters.

https://metrompg.com/posts/block-heater.htm

The only downside is pluging in your car.

EBH
 

I recall the engine block heater as a carry-over from the Canadian assembly lines -- which are easy to order and to be installed in the U.S. (especially on domestic nameplates). Up there, and in the extreme Northern U.S., these add-ons are nearly required if you park your vehicle outside. In North Dakota, they tell me that remote start systems are nearly required if no EBH is installed.

In the warmer climes, but still cold-enough to effect economy (in open-loop long enough to be a bother), this may be a good idea. I actually considered it for my Evo because the transmission was so stiff, I couldn't shift into 2nd until the whole deal warmed up). Same principle, the heater could keep the coolant/anti-freeze at a temp to get the vehicle out of open-loop and into a more economical mode, sooner. This is actually an excellent point (good work)...

RH77

kickflipjr: it was that link
 

kickflipjr: it was the link you posted to my page about block heaters that tipped me off to this site (gassavers.org showed up in my referer logs). so, thanks.

if the amount of search engine traffic is any indication, a whole lot of people have started thinking about block heaters in the last 2 weeks - I suppose the weather just turned colder.

i've had more google searches leading to my page about block heaters than any other.

whats a referer log? What
 

whats a referer log? What you can see when anyone puts a link to your site on other sites... If so thats awesome.

Yeah, shows where people
 

Yeah, shows where people come from to get to your site.

Re: whats a referer log? What
 

it's really useful to see how people arrive at the various pages on my site.

just to clarify, simply placing the link on this page didn't make it show up in my log. someone had to actually click it. the "referring" URL was recorded in my log along with the request to view the linked page.

so if no one had clicked the link you put in, i wouldn't have known about gassavers.org ... so thanks to the clicker too.

Re: whats a referer log? What
 

I use the refferrer log to see what search strings people use to find our site via Google. It's usually pretty cool to also see your site discussed in other forums.

Quote:so if no one had
 

Not to brag, but I clicked it about 15 minutes after the original post, so you're welcome.

Quote:Another 'non-sexy' but
 

Another little thing. How much does one of these damn things weigh/cost?

<a href=https://www.dodgetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?s=6307d7191bb2c4c3bb9c69b5a0a7a6a9& t=28088&page=1&pp=20 target=_blank>Source</a>

Re: Quote:Another 'non-sexy' but
 

Assuming gas is $2/gallon and I get 40mpg that 45 cents is about the same as 10 miles. This is often longer than the distance of most people's commute to work.

But if you've got solar
 

But if you've got solar panels, dun dun dun. And if you consider that that is often longer than the drive to work you've got to figure that you might be running wicked rich the whole drive. Like MetroMPG said about extended his trips to try and not get such bad gas mileage.

Re: But if you've got solar
 

Solar isn't an option for this. You usally heat your engine block in the night time. On top of that a 700watt solar array would cost more than one of those Jeep Commanders.

Man, you got batteries and
 

Man, you got batteries and **** when you do solar, or else you wouldn't have power for a week when you got a big snow.

Re: Quote:Another 'non-sexy' but
 

unless you live in dawson city, plugging in for that length of time is completely unnecessary. and unless you have a giant heat sink of an engine block, 700 watts is also overkill.

i plug my 300 watt block heater in for 1.5 hrs (sometimes 2) and it does its job, warming the engine around 30-50F above ambient.

at $.08/kw-hr that costs $0.036 or 3.6 cents.

my external element style heater cost around $50, but i got OEM and therefore it was more expensive. you can get the frost plug style heaters for much less. it probably weighs no more than a pound with the cord.

external element style example:

https://www.metrompg.com/posts/photos...-bolt-on-z.jpg

Re: Quote:Another 'non-sexy' but
 

*pfft* On tuesday-thursday, I put at least 120 miles on my car PER DAY. =P

Quote:and unless you have a
 

This guy had a 5.8 I believe, :p, 3.6 cents sounds good though, take that Matt!!!

Re: Quote:and unless you have a
 

3.6 cents is much better than 45.

You can find good aftermarket heaters cheap. I even saw one that was a dipstick heater, which I think is rather cool.

So maybe I'm missing
 

So maybe I'm missing something, but what are the savings by using this engine heater? How long does it take to make up the cost of the heater and electricity? Are we trying to save money or save gas?

Re: So maybe I'm missing
 

Some people want to save money, some want to save gas. It's that simple. Not everyone is motivated by the same things.

Engines are more efficient when at normal operating temperature. Depending on the vehicle it can take several miles. For my car I think it takes around 5 or 6 miles to get warmed up. Using the block heater for one hour and spending 4 cents in electricity (if the above figures are correct) to help get your engine in normal operating temperature right away seems like it would pay off. I'm certain it could pay for itself in a year or so (depending on the block heater you purchased).

Then again, it might pay for itself much sooner assuming your fuel economy while the engine is cold is drastically less than your fuel economy while warm.

matt makes a good point on
 

matt makes a good point on the issue of motivation.

to further complicate things, in the case of an engine heater, i use it for a combination of reasons: better mileage, increased comfort (heater output comes much sooner), reduced wear on the starter/battery, and because the motor runs significantly more smoothly immediately after a pre-warmed start than when started cold, and i like that.

i haven't bothered to do a cost/benefit analysis based solely on fuel savings because (1) i haven't bothered to calculate exactly how much it saves me, and (2) i'd do it for the other reasons, even if there were no mpg benefit (which we all agree there is, though likely very small in the big picture).

a few more thoughts on the
 

a few more thoughts on the strictly financial cost-benefit analysis of block heaters, if that's your main motivation -

one key factor is whether using one changes your behaviour:

if it leads you to idle the car *less* to warm it up after a cold start (which, granted, you probably don't do if you're concerned about fuel economy), the cost-benefit outcome will be significantly better than in a comparson that strictly measures the fuel consumption of a pre-heated vs. a cold engine over the first N km of driving.

another consideration is trip length:

the financial benefit of using a block heater is inversely proportional to trip length. it has a greater impact on total short trip fuel consumption than long trip fuel consumption. (this applies to any technique or technology which only improves warm-up fuel economy.)

Ordered One
 

So, I ordered the factory-spec engine block heater from my Acura dealer -- apparently it bolts into the block on the front by the exhaust manifold. The 'teg takes forever to warm-up, so I'm guessing that open-loop is going on for a while. We'll see what happens.

Now back to the solar panels. I park at the airport for extended periods of time (2-4 days max). That's where I need the heated coolant, since I'm on the highway almost immediately from the car park.

*If an array is placed in the sunroof area, how much voltage and wattage can be produced from something that size?

*Understandably, a battery would probably be needed to store energy.

*Second idea -- would the car's battery (or another battery hooked to the block heater) have enough juice to heat up the block in the matter of 15-minutes? Some remote car starters have cell-phone trigger capability. This could be applied to quickly warm up coolant -- not to start the car, but to activate the heater circuit. I know I'm working with a DC system on an AC device -- so electrical engineers out there...?

RH77

Re: Ordered One
 

you'll like the block heater.

i can answer some of your questions...

i did a "cold" start today on the firefly - inintentionally (the cord wasn't plugged in all the way). immediately after starting, at -18C / 0F, the scangauge indicated the car was consuming fuel at a rate of 2.0L per hour at idle (cold/elevated idle). at normal operating temps it wavers between .4/.5 Lph at idle. the car runs so noticeably nicer when pre-warmed, i cringe when i have to start it cold (or accidentally start it cold).

the 3 sq ft pv panel i use to maintain/charge the batteries on my sailboat puts out around 1amp @ 18v under ideal conditions: summer sun, panel angled directly at it. not too much juice, when you consider a 110v "trickle" charger usually puts out 2A at a similar voltage.

Google Ad
 

The Google Ad at the top directed me to this:

Google Ad Link

It looks like a device that runs on a small amount of gasoline, that pre-heats and circulates the coolant, where an electrical source is not available. It comes with a timer and/or remote fob.

Any thoughts/experiences?

RH77

HOLY CRAP!
 

Nevermind -- after further research, I found it's $1600 installed. Holy crap. What about a similarly designed device that runs on propane?

RH77

Quote:Cold weather driving?
 

https://eartheasy.com/live_fuel_efficient_driving.htm

Sounds a little bloated, but I think they're talking mainly about short trips, even if it was all cold engine driving versus all warm engine with the 10% gain, 10% is a lot of difference.


Some prius chat.

better block heater
 

Hey guys think hybrid - run the heater off a 12 volt battery in the vehicle on a timer or remote control relay from the house to preheat. Now you are asking how is a 12 volt battery going to help me when I have to charge it . . . charge it with a switch connecting it into the vehicle charging circuit when you are going down hill or braking - wire it into the brake circuit with a relay then you dump extra energy into the warmer battery from the alternator when you are slowing down or idling thus reclaiming the energy. Plus you have the block heater with you should you park somewhere with no plug during the day and need to keep it warm.

Would the block heater work when the lows are only mid 70's? You said 30-50F above ambient. Would that mean it could warm it to 130 on a warm day?

I've been using my block heater fairly regularly this summer. I haven't recorded any temp deltas, but do recall seeing 105F on the SG at startup in 80F ambient. I don't recall how long it was plugged in that time.

Was it a hard install on the fireflea? I'm leaning real hard at doing this. Thanks METRO.

Installation difficulty is very different depending on car & heater style.

The location of my OEM heater was the rear of the block underneath the intake manifold. It was a ***** to install - several hours. YMMV. :)

I have a question about the lower radiator hose heaters. The instructions say to mount it into the lower hose with the element facing toward the block. In my car, the thermostat is in the lower hose. My question is this: will the block heater work in the lower hose, or should I install it in the upper hose since it will have a direct link to the cylinder head? Thanks.

The hose heaters are supposed to work by convection, so you won't heat the engine if it's in the upper hose (hot coolant rises).

I'm surprised the OEM heater (you did say you ordered it, didn't you?) is an in-line hose style. I've read they're not as effective as the frost plug type.

Do you know its watts rating?

It is a 600W heater. I know the hose type heaters aren't the best but, my skills(or lack thereof:p ) were not up to doing the frost plug and since money is tight I probably couldn't afford to have it done.
PS: I was hoping you were on today Metro.:)

600W is pretty serious. Maybe it'll be OK. Though you'll want to monitor it: one guy wrote that his inline hose heater would boil the coolant at the heater, but not get the engine very warm.

I'm using an external bolt-on 300W block heater (shaped element). It's on the very top of the back of the block, under the intake manifold and straddles a steel coolant line. Seems to work OK, but a lot of heat is wasted to the air.

But if I knew then what I know now, I would have installed the frost plug style.

You might also consider insulating the coolant hose between the heater and the block.

I just checked awhile ago and I thought I could feel boiling on the hose on the element side of the heater. I seem to only have about 4-6" of hose between the heater and where it hooks onto my thermostat housing.

I shouldn't tell you I have a 1000w zerostart unit, although it has a thermal limit of 200F and also a secondary over temp shutoff. It takes about 90 minutes at 32F to get to the point where it starts to cycle and about 120 minutes at 0F. My unit is on the lower side of the radiator and uses natural convection. If you set the cabin heater controls to defrost you get some convection in to the cabin area and if I plug in outside it will melt snow and ice off the windshield :)

I also use a compact 1000 watt ceramic heater inside the car. It gets plugged in with the block heater, about 45 minutes before I need to leave (give or take, depending on ambient). So both the interior and block are toasty.

So, Larry - I know you played with it today. Let's have some numbers!

EG - 1 hour EBH = how much above ambient? etc..

I haven't actually let it cool down completely yet since the install. Soon after I got it installed, we went to my sister-in-law's for 3-4 hours. We were celebrating my nephew's graduation from Ft. Benning before he ships out to Ft. Campbell. I will know in the morning though. I'll turn on the EBH about 1 & 1/2 hours before I leave for church and see what the temp looks like.