VX -- Del Sol engine swap
Newbie questions--
I was thinking of a Civic VX for gas mileage but the car is so plain-jane (although pretty) and I only need a two-seater. Since VX engines seem to be pretty available I was thinking about dropping one into a del Sol, which I really like, if I can find one with a blown-out or high mileage engine. I've seen a lot of Honda expertise on this site and wanted to ask about the potential for making an engine swap. I've done lots of work on cars and motorcycles but have never swapped an engine (and will be paying someone to do this one) and have never owned a Honda automobile so I thought I would ask some experts. I understand that mechanically the D15Z1 engine drops straight in to all the del Sol models but I'm not sure about other stuff. 1. Do I need to replace the entire ECU or can I replace just the chip(s)? 2. Can I go with a non-VTEC del Sol S and keep its wiring harness but run the VTEC wires separately, assuming I can break into the harness connectors? 3. What else is going to bite me in the ? thanks from the new guy, |
Matt and I were making fun
Matt and I were making fun of the del sol vx in your profile, but I ended up being correct about the swap, he thought you were confused. Haha, no offense of course.
The D15Z1 will not drop into any del sol, some del sols had a b16 in them, which has different mounting stuff, get the del sol s, lightest stuff. (you could also consider a crx, :p) The ecu question depends on what ecu you have and how you plan on running the engine. You could go the stock route, or have me chip a p28 for you or something to run the maps, then tune it, which would be peachy also, better than stock for sure. Going from non vtec to vtec is just a pain in the ***, you'll have to wire up a bunch of crap, but matt'll know more about that. And finally, I ain't done a swap yet, but we could always meet up and do it ourselves, since I'm nearby. Good luck and welcome to the site. |
Hey Moses...
A few things
Hey Moses...
A few things you're going to run into: The computer will be different for the d15z1. The z1 uses a p07 ECU. The p07 ECU is slightly different than other obd1 Honda ECUs. This being said, you'll have to make a few modifications to you existing wiring harness for it to work properly. One obvious difference is the fact that the z1 engine uses a 5-wire wideband o2 sensor, where the del sol uses a 4 wire o2 sensor. The existance of vtec is another difference. You can wire most of these up directly, but it takes a little bit of work and lots of patience. If you really want a two seater that gets good gas mileage, I'd suggest looking to swap the z1 into a 88-91 CRX HF. The HF is lighter and has a longer geared transmission (for better gas mileage). You can bolt the z1 up to the HF transmission and use a specially made conversion harness for the wiring issues. These harnesses usually cost around $150, or you can make your own if you like soldering. I have the pinouts to make your own. One thing you're going to have to be cautious of is the transmission you use. The VX Transmission is hydrolic and is very long geared (good for us). I'm certain that most Del Sols are not as long geared but are also hydrolic. If at all possible you want to find the engine with the transmission. It will save you a few MPG in the long run. If you choose to put it in a CRX, you want to find a HF transmission. This is what I'm doing for my 89 sedan. For an engine, if you have the money to spare I'd recommend getting one from an engine importer. I bought my engine for $350 plus shipping. It is the japanese equivilant of the z1 engine, but it has less than 60k miles on it. Good luck finding a US engine with that few miles on it. ANyway, I'm ranting now. I'm doing the same swap in my sedan, so I've learned a lot about the z1 engine and the civic VX. I'd be more than happy to help you along the way. Just stick around and post any questions you have. Just FYI, the lightest Del Sol is the 1993 S Manual Tranmission, which weighs 2277lbs. The Civic VX weighs 2000lbs. If you can find a 88 CRX HF it weights 1819 lbs. 400 pounds will make a big difference in acceleration, mpg, etc. A friend of mine put a z1 engine in a 88HF and with some weight reduction manages to get about 60mpg. See stock honda weights here: https://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=403871#4156615 ANyway, I'll be sure to help you any way I can. Oh, and hondas are really easy to work on, so don't let them scare you :) |
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Good luck, found the engine already? |
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quick thanks
Wow, thanks for the fast and detailed responses, even if you were laughing at me :-) It's going to take me a little while to try to sort out some of the stuff you wrote, I don't know one ECU from another and I've obviously been misinformed about some of the mechanical aspects of the swap.
I wanted a CRX, I love the looks and the layout and knew about the weight, but really don't want to be fighting rust and other old-age disabilities from the day I buy the car. I can theoretically get a del Sol as recent as '97, going on 10 years younger than a CRX, worse since the CRX's got heavier as the model years passed. Plus since this would be a winter car in central PA I would really like to get anti-lock brakes, so it looked like a del Sol even if CRX's had my heart. Even if the del Sol's (and other recent cars) are relatively heavier, at least they are shorter than other Civics, and I like the small exterior size. Of course finding ABS on the S model is not going to be easy, especially on a car cheap enough to make the enging swap not totally stupid. I think ABS is stock on the DOHC VTEC, and I've seen it on SI's but not many S's. I'm not too worried about the gear ratios, this car would probably not see much highway driving and for the rest of the gears (except 1st) the driver gets to pick the ratio, I'm only thinking manual transmission. But what's a hydrolic transmission? Are we talking about cable vs. hydraulic clutch? That I understand, but if this is some weird hondamatic transmission, it's another thing I don't know anything about. I haven't picked out an engine, it's more like I noticed that one seems to come up on Ebay regularly and there are a couple of importers that sell them surprisingly cheap. More importantly I also haven't found a chassis, not a lot of Hondas with blown motors I guess. I still don't know for sure if this project is just too stupid to do. Probably is. It would just be so cool, much cooler than an Insight, which any fool can buy. Do the 5 wire O2 sensors fit the standard threaded hole in the cat? IF so it's just a matter of getting the wires up to the brain, right? A p28 ECU normally uses a 5-wire O2 sensor which SVO is making work with a 4-wire? While I would always prefer to avoid work, one thing I can do is solder. I build electronics in a research lab, I know how to hack a cable. If I get a chassis and an engine then I'm definitely light the ECU, 4 or 5 wires. thanks again for the support. |
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As for the ECU, I purchased mine for $30 online. The p07 is not desired at all by the racing community ,so they often ditch them. For the z1 engine you'll also need to have an EGR box. I'm not certain if del sols had them or not, but I think they did. You can use one out of a CRX HF from a junkyard too. If you really want a CRX I say go for it. Not only are they the new hotrod, but there is a huge support community for them. They have tons of aftermarket parts and look pretty cool. It's pretty nice when a late 80s car still can look new two decades later. I would be much more able to help you with this swap if you went the CRX route as it is the same generation as my car. But the trick is to find a 88-91 CRX with little or no rust. I think it's possible, and can be very cheap if you shop around. |
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SVO - you are slightly
SVO - you are slightly mistaken about using a chipped P28 ECU in lieu of the P07. The P07 not only controls the wideband sensor with an additional processor [the board in the P07 looks so tuff with two processors!], but it also controls the additional emission control items, and the EGR valve, which D16Z6's lack. Running the P28, you'll have to forego these gas mileage boosting amenities.
If finding a P07 is your problem, it isn't any more, as I have one in my closet. =D |
Oh true, I forgot about the
Oh true, I forgot about the EGR. I was mainly taking this knowledge from people on pgmfi who had used a chipped p28 in order to tune their boosted z1s and things like that, but I overlooked the obvious fact that anyone boosting their z1 would not keept their stock intake manifold. Meh, that's true. Word on the street is that there are three types of p07 board architecture, and one is identical to the p28, so that board is chippable. I think it's the california model. Never seen it confirmed with pictures though.
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That's true, but once you
That's true, but once you chipped it it won't matter if it's california model or not, you could drive an ITR around with it. So it'd still have lean-burn.
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I talked with the guys @
I talked with the guys @ Hondata once about socketing a P07 and they said it's not doable. But, when I opened my P07, there is clearly a spot for an external ROM and all the rest of the stuff needed for socketing. I actually practiced my desolder technique on the blank spot for the ROM in this ECU.
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Do you still have that
Do you still have that ecu/pictures of it? I think the code for the chippable p07s is p07-000, and they should be board type 1720 or something like that.
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I still have the ECU. I can
I still have the ECU. I can take shots of it if you'd like, and I'll try to remember to look at the code on it tonight.
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That'd be cool! Thanks.
That'd be cool! Thanks.
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Here you go - a picture of
Here you go - a picture of the P07 board. Sorry for the blurriness.
https://www.filefarmer.com/2/daxifus/ecu.jpeg |
Tells me that this site it
Tells me that this site it not supported! Oh no! :p
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Bah, WTDR is getting to be a
Fixed the link, switched to FileFarmer. Thanks for the suggestion!
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Haha, WTF, couldn't read the
Haha, WTF, couldn't read the code number, but not the same board architecture, so bah indeed.
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It is P07-A00
It is P07-A00
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I meant the board number.
I meant the board number. It's in white on the board itself towars the top edge (if the plugs are to the left).
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The board # 02D01560-1500
The board # 02D01560-1500 H8Y-D
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Currently not chippable, ,
Currently not chippable, :p, you could be a pioneer though.
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dropout
I'm sorry I dropped out of this thread after you guys gave me so much worthwhile information. I got some bad personal news right after Christmas and it pretty much took the wind out of me. I'm just getting my feet back under me now.
I'm still whaffling on this project, sometimes I think I should take your advice and go with the CRX, other times I'm pretty sure I'm biting off way too much work and should just get a VX. I know I'm going to be tied up this month and out of town next month so there's no point in rushing a decision. I'm keeping my eye on autotrader and cars.com, thing turn up from time to time, a candidate donor chassis or a VX, maybe sometime I'll see somethig and actually make a commitment. I'll be in Texas in Feb, maybe I'll see something rust-free there. thanks a ton, |
Hey Moses,
If it's worth
Hey Moses,
If it's worth anything, I regret not getting a VX. While I love my sedan and all of the work I've done (and still have yet to do) I sort of wish I'd just gotten a VX from the beginning. I think they're cute cars. I didn't even know the VX existed until after I bought my sedan though. I'd keep your eye open for a cheap VX. If the engine dies you can always get a new one for about $500 (or less, depending on where you live). Or, if you really love the CRX, do it. the VX engine in the CRX seems to be the next big thing for Honda enthusiants. I've already heard of about a half dozen people who have done it or are about to. Good luck with anything in your personal life. An extra head is always good around here. I hope you stick around. |
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