Excessive oil changes
 

I've been trying to get to the bottom of this for a while now, I know very little about oil and the various grades etc, and as everything is so different in the US compared to the rest of the World, it's very difficult to compare.

I've been looking at modern engines and noticed the oil change intervals getting longer and longer and longer. This is to be expected with technological advances in both oil, and the refinement and additives found in fuel now. However I still hear stories around the web of people in the US changing their oil more than once a year, in fact, and it makes me shiver to say it, but even after 3000 miles!?

Most European manufactures now recommend a service/oil change every 2 years/24,000 miles, whichever occurs first. Some up to 30,000 miles, and the big trucks can do 60,000 on one oil change. Taken from VW's UK website:

" These engines use built-in sensors that continually monitor the oil quality, making it possible to enjoy reliable and confident motoring for up to a maximum of 18,000* miles or 24 months (whichever occurs first)."

Audi is the same, so is my Renault, but I can't figure out why the US change their oil so often? I appreciate almost everything in the US is pretty much controlled by oil, but the big companies wanting you to change your oil every 3k is just too obvious.

Is it to do with the oil types available in the US? Or is it to do with the amount of Sulphur in US fuel, which I've read is up to 1000% more than the fuel in the UK. Or is it just the refinement and additives in the two comparable fuels?

It kind of bugs me to think a two year old car here with 60,000 on the clock might have only needed 2 oil changes, whereas the same car in the US would have required 20 oil changes and used 10 times more oil. The US is constantly criticized for it's oil usage, but to me, there are obvious ways to cut back and this almost seems too obvious. To think each car could be using up to 1000% more in the US than each car in Europe is quite worrying.

Theres a few reasons I can think of why new cars have greatly extended oil change intervals compared to older cars:
1) Engines are becoming more efficient and generally don't load the oil up with fuel
2) Manufacuters will be learning how long they can stretch out changes to the point where it dosent affect the car within its warranty period
3) Enviromental pressure to reduce the amount of pollutants used

Oil technology hasn't greatly improved(excluding full synthetics), we have improved a lot in analysis of used oil however and that will be assisting in point 2 above. I personally am not a fan of some of the long oil change intervals a lot of new cars are using. Sure if you only have new cars and get rid of them before the warranty ends its great. But for people like me who mostly have older cars and keep them long term I believe the longer oil change intervals may be doing more harm to the engine long term. Best answer to how long the oil is good for is by doing used oil analysis. But for the long change intervals its best to use good quality synthetics as they are much better for the long haul compared to mineral, but that comes at a cost

No, no, and no. There's no technical need for it. Manufacturers specify longer oil change intervals here just as they do there.

It's just really great marketing by the oil and service industries. They've got the 3000 mile myth so thoroughly ingrained in US automotive culture that we get what you describe. Our junkyards are full of cars that never suffered any kind of failure or wear that could have been prevented by more frequent oil changes, with only rare examples of complete oil neglect mixed in.

Now, there is one minor technical reason I can think of. Here in the US, we can keep a vehicle on the road for much longer than can be done in places like yours with tighter regulations. For you, it might be okay to consider the engine as a wear part, as long as its wear outlasts the useful service life. In the US, useful service life is much longer, indefinite, and we like to imagine that it is infinite. Realistically, however, very few people keep a vehicle for its useful service life and most vehicles go to the junkyard before the end of their useful service life because of a lot of small repairs or a transmission failure (because somehow the oil change myth doesn't extend to automatic transmissions, which often keep their OEM fill until the end).

The shortest recommended oil change interval I can think of for a new car is now 5000 miles in the US. Despite this, oil change shops and car dealers still put a next change in 3000 mile or 3 months sticker on the windshield.

Outside of some extreme cases, like driving through a dust storm, there is no technical reason to change oil at 3000 miles. People commonly do it here out of the pressure from for profit companies, or simply because that was how it was done for engines that are now several generations old.

I remember a news bit on this topic asking a racing crew pit chief how often he changed his own car's oil back in the late '80s, early'90s. His answer was 7000 miles. Taxis, even the old Crown Vic ones, would get their oil changed every 6000 miles.

The scorched bits that form in oil from being exposed to high heat are what ages the oil. They can restrict flow and even sludge up in the worse conditions. A bigger concern is that when water gets into the oil, and it will, they will mix with the water and form acids. Motor oils have improved over time to deal with scorched bits better.

Group I oils were what were in use back when a 3000 mile change interval actually needed. The cheapest engine oil on the store shelf is a Group II oil. It is further refined and purified than the Group I stuff. This gives better performance and less particle formation. Group III oils are even further refined. The majority of synthetic oils are actually Group III mineral oils(except in Germany and Japan). Group IV are true synthetics using PAOs, and Group V is anything not covered by the other groups.

Then the basic additives have improved. Being better at keeping any burnt bits in suspension, neutralizing any acids, reducing oxidation of the oil, and inhibiting corrosion of engine parts.

Even cars with shorter OCIs don't need to have the oil changed as often when using current oils. The looser manufacturing tolerances and wear may mean they consume more oil, but that consumption rate will be the same whether changed later or sooner.

As for going for longer than a year between changes. My wife's car is used little enough that it could probably go 2 years between changes. It is just easier record keeping to change it once a year, during warm weather. Besides, it sees mostly short trips, so the oil may have more water and fuel in it than a typical car's. Oil analysis is an option. I'm just not a diehard enough conservationist to save a few bucks and 5 quarts of oil a year.

Thanks all for your comprehensive answers. So it appears that cars in the US can and will go just as far on the same oil as any other car in any other country. But it seems to be more of a cutural thing to change oil too often. Perhaps like fuel in the US, oil is almost too cheap? I seem to remember seeing a roadside sign in the states readin "oil change $20" I guess with this kind of low cost maitainence, it just encourages people to do uneccesary oil changes. I think in the UK, which by the way is the most expensive place in the World to run a car, the cheapest you could get an oil change for would be around the equivelent of $170, if not more.

It's nice to know some people actually reconize this stupidity too, for a long while, every time I asked a question regarding oil changes, somone would say something like "Have you ever seen what happens to oil after 3000 miles?" and the like.

There is a belief that the longer oil change intervals recommended by car makers are no more than a ploy to have engines wear out sooner. The belief says that as long as the engine lasts longer than the warranty, the sooner it fails the more new cars are sold. It is probably true that frequent oil changes help engine life, but there is a point of diminishing returns. Those more frequent than necessary oil changes are wasteful both of resources and money.

Some recommend sending oil samples to testing labs for spectroscopic analysis, with the idea of determining the "proper" oil change interval. Trouble is, at least here in the USA, the analysis is likely to cost as much or more than the oil change, making saving rather illusory. And the results of testing themselves can lead to argument, since there isn't really any standard for whatever might show up. Some even go so far as to send virgin oil (straight from the container) for what is called a base-line analysis, so any changes can be identified.

The great watershed in oil change interval extension was the phase-out of leaded gasoline. The lead contaminated the oil (along with spark plugs). Once leaded fuel vanished the recommended oil change went from about 3000 miles to about 7500 miles, although makers still recommend more frequent changes under "severe operating conditions." I have seen a few places here in Nebraska which say that Nebraska's heat, cold, and dust constitute "severe operating conditions" which require the more frequent intervals.

My Toyota Tundra has a maker-specified interval of 5000 miles for an oil change, using full-synthetic 0W-20 oil. It also says if E-85 fuel is used, the interval becomes 2500 miles. That, from the Owner's Manual.

I'm a little sceptical about the manufactures making you change your oil late so the engine fails sooner theory. People these days expect good value for money regardless of brand, and reliability reputation accounts for a lot over here, and once a car brand is considered unreliable, it's can take years, sometimes decades to shake that reputation.

I'm probably going to change my oil when the car is 1 year old in December, the mileage won't exceed 12,000 but as my first 2 services are free anyway, I might as well get it done early. If I can find a place that analysis oil, then I'll consider doing this just to see if the oil would be good for another 12k.

Wow, I didn't realize that an oil change is so expensive across the pond. Is that because of the cost of the oil itself, the cost of labor, or because some laws or cultural expectations result in a more comprehensive service? Any guesses on how the costs break down?

The $20 oil change is with the cheapest oil and filter and even then may be a loss leader if the shop isn't buying in bulk (i.e. tanker truck deliveries or 200 liter drums instead of 1 or 5 liter bottles). They drain, remove and replace filter, fill, and send you on your way.

Most people probably pay more like $40 to $100. After years of doing my own oil changes with inexpensive oil, I was shocked when I went to the dealer with my 2008 VW and they wanted $90 for an oil change. An oil change like that might have $20 to $35 worth of oil, an oil filter costing $3 to $10, a complete fluid check and top-off and tire check, all chassis lube/grease service, and various stuff inspected (i.e. lights and brakes).

And along with the 3000 mile myth, there persists a myth that "severe operating conditions" includes all normal conditions that exist in the real world, because in the beginning it was indeed defined that way. It's been decades since then and now manufacturers define normal/severe conditions much more realistically.

I agree entirely. Nobody wants to be known as that company whose engines need to be replaced after 120,000 miles.

Well oil is quite expensive. To be fair I did used to use the top of the range stuff for my little Fiat Abarth, it cost £50 for 4 litres, that's around $85 USD but the biggest cost here is labour. Most garages charge £48 an hour, that's about $75 USD an hour, but one garage charged up to £148 an hour ($230 approx)

Self servicing is not an option for most people here, a lot of houses here were built long before cars existed so they don't even have a driveway, never mind a garage! Luckily I have a friend who builds and races Rally cars with his own workshop within spitting distance of where I work, so once my car's run out of warranty, money can be saved there paying "mates rates" ;)

Those labor rates sound about right for an actual shop. I wouldn't want the techs at a cheap lube place doing anything more than changing my oil.

The most expensive oil on the store shelf might hit $10 a liter/quart, but I've heard of the oil for high performance sports cars, like the Nissan GT-R, costing more.

Here in the states that's a six pack and a pizza. What's the rate on your side of the pond?

Ha it could be anything found hiding in my trunk, just recently an Abarth themed flag, but usualy I throw him £10 or £20 per job, depending how long it takes. Much cheaper than garages anyhow.

My '11 Subaru specifies an OCI of 7500 miles. I will adhere to that until my warranty period isover and then will immediately go to 10,000 miles. I may extend that to 12,000 but at 10,000 I will get an analysis of my oil. If it comes back good I'll start using 12K miles as the new OCI.
I do all of my maintainence work on my cars because I don't really trust others to do the work correctly. A DIY oil change costs me approximately $30 (and about 30 minutes of my time) using top-of-the-line synthetic and OEM filter.
I don't really know why some people still insist on 3K OCIs. Back in the 70's engines only lasted 100K miles before needing a rebuild and OCIs really were 3K miles. Nowadays, completely unnecessary and massive overkill unless you live at the end of a 20 mile dirt road.

I ran 5,000 mile intervals on my old 74 Chevy pickup, and I had well over 300,000 miles on it when I sold it.

So you think the car would have died if you had changed it every 20,000 or 30,000 then?

IDK, it ran well, but the valve guides on the #8 cylinder were worn. Every oil change I used to pull the #8 plug and spray it out with some carb cleaner and recheck the gap. Never had any visible oil burning from the tailpipe though. I would not have felt comfortable extending the oil change interval considering the oil and filter technologies prevalent at the time. I still go by the 5,000 mile interval, but I use better filters and synthetic oil now. My 98 GMC pickup runs so smooth and quiet that with almost 200,000 miles on it you can't hear it idling from 10 feet away.

I'm still sceptical whether it makes a difference. I mean sure, any car would run smooth for decades if you changed the oil every few months, but unless you've done hundreds of thousands of miles and changed the oil every 20,000 or 30,000, how do you really know if it makes a difference.

It tends to be smaller engines need more frequent oil changes too, so it seems even more excessive that US drivers use close intervals when the engines tend to be 3 to 5 times larger. As mentioned before, a large haulage truck in Europe, big engine lots of miles, has oil change intervals at 60,000 miles. I might ask my friend who's a courier driver how often he changed the oil on his van. He drives an 06 Merc diesel van, he must be close to 700,000 if not 800,000 miles now. Admitadley he has rebuilt the engine once, but I think thats expected with this extreme mileage.

Engine displacement has very little to do with oil change interval requirements. There are many, many variables that deplete the additive package in new oil to the point where acid formation will cause damage from internal corrosion.

Google "oil TBN number". Total Base Number is the quantification of the oil's ability to neutralize acid formation during engine operation. Contrary to popular myth, oil DOES "wear out" as well as get dirty. The goal is to change the oil before the TBN is less than "1", and thus has worn-out.

And another interesting Google research project is "Synthetic Motor Oil defined". "Synthetic" is more a marketing term, than an indication of characteristics of the oil itself.

Interesting info. So are you suggesting the oil used in the US "wears out" quicker? A combination of poorer quality of fuel and oil too perhaps?

The basic lubricating qualities of the oil itself don't wear out. It thicken over time from various causes, but will still lube.

The additives do get used up. The acid neutralizers that make up the TBN are the ones of usual concern. Contaminates from the air or fuel, along with scorched oil particles from hot spots in the engine, cause the oil to get 'dirty'. These particles are generally benign on their own. Large ones get caught in the filter, and detergents in the oil keep the smaller stuff suspended and forming sludge.

However, these particles can form acids when mixed with water, and water will always find its way into the oil. When this happens, the acid neutralizers do their job and get used up in the process. When used up, the acids can start attacking materials in the engine. Even with the TBN just low, the acids can cause some harm before being neutralized.

There is also antiwear additives that get used up over time. They prevent damage at times when the available oil itself isn't enough. Start up is where they obviously get used, but it also happens at other times. GM's oil monitor system doesn't look at the oil in the car at all. It is making a calculation on oil life left based on the known consumption rate of a common antiwear additive at various air temps, engine temps, and rpms. It has shown to be accurate on that calculation based on some used oil analysis.

Oil change intervals in the US are shorter simply due to marketing and tradition. IMHO. Our gasoline may contain more sulfur than in Europe at present, but seems a to have minor effect. People using oil analysis to determine when to change their oil have gone over 10k miles between changes. Depending on car usage and climate, GM's OLM may even say the same.

There are 5 classified groups of base oil. The first 3 come from refined petroleum. Group IV are the synthetic PAOs, and group V is a catch all for everything else. Synthetic became a marketing term, at least in the US, when Castrol successfully defended its use for a group III containing oil in court on the claim it provided the benefits of a full group IV one. A synthetic labelled oil in the US should be better in terms of properties than a non-synthetic one. 0w ones will have some group IV or V base mixed in at least.

So my car had its first service last week, at 13 Months old with 10,500 miles I persumed they would do an oil change. But after speaking to the garage, they say the intervals are 18,000 miles or two years for the oil change. I just assumed it would be done once a year, but as it is, the car will be about 18 months old by the time I hit that mileage.

Trust me, if Americans had to pay $300 or more for an oil change as they do in many other countries. they wouldn't be doing an oil change every 3000 miles.

5 US quarts / 4.73 liters of Mobil 1 synthetic oil costs $26 at Wal-Mart. What does a jug cost in the UK or Germany...about $80.

Like most things, oil is probably more expensive this side of the pond, but most people are willing to spend money maintaining their cars if it needs it. But when manufacturers recommend 20,000 intervals, what's the point wasting oil?

Exactly.

Different cultures and mentalities. For example, the US constitutes 5% of the world's population, yet consumes 25% of the world's energy.

It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out if all other countries were as ignorant, there would not be enough energy to go around.

This love affair with large pick-ups and SUVs with only one person in them driving to work is another example. :rolleyes:

I was asked why I was letting my engine idle after washing my motorcycle while on tour in Europe. I said I was drying it out. I was told what a waste of fuel and I was unnecessarily polluting. No question, I was.

Yea, I was shot down in flames the other day for suggesting fuel and oil were "too cheap" in the US, but the truth is, if fuel and oil remain so cheap, people will continue to exploit and waste it. If fuel was that cheap here, and we didn't have pollution tax, I'd probably drive a nice Sports car.

Yeah well, that is usually the case when the truth hurts.

They should raise the price by taxing it and then using the money to provide free health care.

Americans don't seem to have issues having their tax dollars pissed away on wars they can't win, yet they are so opposed to free medical care...or any other social programs. Let them lose their house when they need to pay for that operation.

They talk about their infrastructure crumbling away, yet nobody wants to pay for anything through higher taxes. Well duhhhhh, I too would like everything for free, but that is not how things work. All they need to do is divert the trillions spent in Iraq and spend it on roads, bridges, hospitals. Of course, some powerful politicians would not get rich doing that.

Runningonfumes I couldn't agree more with you, we do stupid things, like re-electing politicians that do NOT represent the majority of people they represent (?). Of course the pols are the ones that set the rules, and set them so that they are re-elected time after time (no term limits except for the President). The special interest groups have so loaded the system with $$$ contributions that a candidate that represents the people hasn't got a chance to get elected. The net result is that our system favors big money, and big money profits from wars, Wall Street, low priced energy to keep consumption high.
We are a debtor nation that owes our high standard of living (and wasteful excesses) to ever increasing national debt that can not be sustained forever.
Please don't lump ALL Americans into the same dung pile as our politicians, but rather help us find a way to change. Some of us DO feel guilty about the path or pols have led us down, and actually feel a need to identify with the rest of the world. Count me as being on YOUR side!
Tenderfoot

It still shocks me to think there's no free healthcare in the US, I mean the tax on alcahol, cigarettes and food, where does that go exactly? The UK's Health Service is 67 years old this year, money well spent, even if it's one of the governments most expensive purchases! ;)

Whatever happened to "we the people" from your constitution.

Americans have to take their government back because it is really getting out of hand these last few decades.

The president, and any of them, will tell you what you want to hear, but he is a puppet of the guys with financial interests who put him there.

The last SOTU address sounded all very nice, but it sounded like a broken record.

What high standard of living? Maybe in Hollywood or Wall Street, but every time I go stateside I am disgusted by the poverty. OK maybe not in major centers, but in smaller centers like upstate NY. I see people at the cash register counting their money to see if they have enough and putting things back...that is sad!

I don't as I have a few friends stateside and they feel the same way.

I remember hearing the debates a few years ago about health care in the US. Poor old Obama! I am flabbergasted why the masses would be against a government-run medicare as we have. Although not the best in the world, our medicare is free or at least paid for by our taxes. My mom's last two operations with a total of 6 weeks in the hospital cost $0 out the door.

By the way France and Italy are/were ranked 1st and 2nd in health care.

Why the distrust? And if you distrust your government that much, why not revolt? Why not have a referendum on military spending versus health care spending?

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but this is not the place to post them.
Please keep political discussions off the board.
Off-topic posts can and will be deleted at the discretion of staff.

Back on topic. So what do ya think?

I'm coming up on 5000 kms (3000 miles) since my last synthetic oil change.

I can just imagine my cams wearing out while I sit here and type away. :eek:

Not due for another 15,000 if you ask me ;)

I would let it go to at least 5,000 miles. What does your owner's manual say? I do 5,000 miles on all of my vehicles except the Escape. The manual says 10,000 for that.

Actualy I just checked, the OCI's for the Jetta are 20,000 to 30,000. Still dont fully understand why it would be different in other countries.

Guys, I was just being sarcastic and having fun.

I'm not one of those that unnecessarily worries about my engine wearing away.

I follow the manufacturer's recommendations in the Owner's Manual for both interval and oil type, which has me wondering why we have all those stupid "what oil" threads on forums...can't people read? I have yet to have an oil related engine failure in over 40 years of vehicle ownership. :rolleyes:

My VW manual specifies oil changes every 15K kilometers.

By the way, a co-worker who owns a BMW 330 Ci since new changed his oil every 22K to 24K kilometers. He now has well over 300K kilometers and amazingly, the engine is fine. He would get the old oil tested in our labs and it was still fine.

You see there's a huge difference again, the intervals for the Jetta here are 35000 to 50000 km, and you've just said yours are 15000!!!

The temperature extremes have something to do with it I am sure. We go from -30C to +30C where I am. Also the oil available in Europe is not necessarily available here. They have different standards.

VW Canada (and VW NA) is likely covering their butt with respect to warranty and we all know that everything revolves around the almighty buck. Some unscrupulous dealers have set that oil change interval via VCDS to 10,000 kilometers just to increase business. I verified mine and sure enough it was. I reset it to the VW Canada recommended oil change interval of 15,000 kilometers using my VCDS. Mind you, I might do it sooner to avoid having to do it mid-winter outside in the driveway.

Someone has a 35K or 50K kilometer oil change interval? Who exactly? That I would like to see in the Owner's Manual or on-line maintenance schedule. Wow!

Most European manufactures now advise anywhere between 18,000 and 30,000 mile oil change intervals. My car recently had it's first service with 10700 miles, I assumed they would change the oil. But it's 18,000 miles or once every two years, whichever occurs first. I think the 30,000 mile interval applies to people doing that mileage in a year, sales reps and people who travel on the highway a lot.

For one thing, the US court ruling that using 'synthetic' on the label to mean near synthetic levels of properties and performance was alright wouldn't apply to Europe. It technically shouldn't apply to Canada, but it generally is how it goes in the US is how goes in Canada in these matters.

So nearly all the 'synthetic' oil on the store shelves here is really just a synthetic blend. There are a few, but they are pricy or hard to get. Ironically, as the term is used now, the Castrol Syntec, the product that lead to this ruling, 0w40 is German made and a true 100% group IV synthetic.

So the manufacturers don't have an oil change interval here as long as in Europe in order to CYA in case that near synthetic performance isn't enough, in part.

The big part is likely the dealer associations. Besides Tesla, no car maker sells direct to the public. They have to go through independent dealers. These dealers do a lot of business in service. So they likely pushed to keep the interval shorter.

I read that Mobil 1 and Valvoline High Performance are or at least were fully synthetic.

Was that the case then and still now?

Having used Mobil 1 in my last car from the 1st inspection at 1000 kilometers for 15 years, all I can say was there were no scuffs on the approach side of the cam lobes the last I checked at about 189,000 kilometers.