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-   -   Hybrid V's diesel (http://www.fuelly.com/forums/f35/hybrid-vs-diesel-17011.html)

Draigflag 11-07-2014 11:39 PM

Hybrid V's diesel
 
I found this interesting report where hybrids wefe compared to diesels. Some of this might be obvious to a lot of people, but basically they found that diesels offer better average economy overall, however hybrids are more suited to urban driving. Obviously hybrids are cleaner too, so its considered more ethical to use a hybrid around town to keep emission levels down.

The report is here:

http://www.thegreencarwebsite.co.uk/...-environments/

trollbait 11-08-2014 08:51 AM

The main points are probably obvious to those following the diesel v. hybrid debate, and what is best for an individual is depends on their daily drive. It is disappointing that the study only used, or presented in the article, Toyota hybrids though.

Ford and Toyota hybrids have the city greater than highway ratings, but other hybrids have the usual highway greater split of traditional cars. I would like to have seen some of those tested. Even better would be to see a comparison of the Jettas, Civics, and Accords. Those are the only models I can think of with gasoline, diesel, and hybrid models available.

I would like to know what, "In contrast, by doubling the average rate of acceleration, the MPG falls by more for hybrids - especially diesel hybrids,' exactly means. I'm not disputing the findings, I just want to know the details beyond average rate.

The A/C results in the linked article are a bit of a red herring. Hybrids can suffer a larger percentage drop in fuel economy with the air on, but they probably still have a better total fuel economy, which is what people care about.

Jay2TheRescue 11-08-2014 09:01 AM

I wish someone out there would make a full hybrid turbo diesel. Get the best of both. Audi is close with auto stop on their TDI's, but there is no full hybrid TDI available in the North American market.

Draigflag 11-08-2014 01:38 PM

Yea I find it strange too how most hybrids are mated to a small not especialy efficient gas engine, you'd think with fuel saving being a priority, using a small diesel engine thats already good fuel would be a good place to start. Could be because diesel engines are heavy, require a turbo and additional cooling in most cases too, so weight/space may be an issue.

Draigflag 11-08-2014 01:43 PM

I also think they need to change the rating tests here in the UK, not least beacsue most people get less than the cars are rated for, but ive noticed the figures for hybrids can be misleading too. With most of the hybrids tested, the city/highway figures are almost identical besides 2 or 3 MPG's so I think the tests need to be adapted for hybrids. It is rumoured in 2017 the government lab tests will change here to give more accurate "real life" figures.

Jay2TheRescue 11-08-2014 03:28 PM

Here in the US, the diesels are rated well under their capability, and the hybrids tend to be rated so high the average driver may not reach the rated figures. The problems with the ratings of the hybrids have been addressed, but I think the diesels are still underrated.

Draigflag 11-09-2014 12:36 AM

I guess every car/engine configuration is different. What they should do is drive the car say 500 miles with a mix of city/highway, open roads/heavy traffic and take an average. I found a garage offering a 24 hour test drive a few years back. It was a great oppurtunity to test the economy, I took the car for a 340 mile drive as there was no mileage limit, its a shame more garages don't do that.

Jay2TheRescue 11-09-2014 06:11 AM

I think that may be part of the problem. They don't drive the car. Its put on a treadmill in a laboratory.

Charon 11-11-2014 06:26 PM

And that is the reason I want to see the mileage as reported by the likes of Consumers Union. They use real-world data for part of their testing. It may not be as repeatable as results from a lab, but I think it is probably closer to what everyday drivers will achieve. As far as I know none of the "official" tests include any full-power acceleration tests, but especially in cars with small engines real drivers often need all the power available to keep up in traffic.

Draigflag 11-11-2014 11:09 PM

I guess that's one of the main priorities of fuelly, thousands of drivers driving millions of miles, overall it gives people a much clearer picture of what they can really expect out of their cars. I'm not sure about the "using all the power" statement though, I don't know anyone that uses full throttle here, but then again there are no highways or traffic lights here so the need to get back up to speed quickly simply isn't there. That's why I hate it when people compare 0-60 times too, the times quoted are the quickest possible, but how many people actually drive to the red line each and every time the accelerate up to 60? Very few.

trollbait 11-12-2014 05:42 AM

The average mpg for the gen3 Prius here runs from 48 to near 50. Consumer Reports got only 44 average, and only 35 for their city portion, which should have been the best number. The only time I came close to fuel economy that low in a gen2 was while doing 90+mph on an interstate. CR must flog their test cars as badly as any writer at Motor Trend, Car and Driver, and the rest of the automobilephile mags. Most drivers on the road do not drive that way.

The real problem with CR, and other magazine, testing is that it is not comparable between models while being presented as it is. Achievable or not, the EPA and other standard tests are repeatable, which allows a comparison of car A's to car B's fuel economy. That can't be done with CR because the car's may have been tested at different times of the year, under different weather conditions, with different fuel blends.

Draigflag 11-12-2014 06:23 AM

Yes hybrids are difficult to test as there are so many varients involved. With a gas or diesel car, you know you're going to be burning gas or diesel for the whole trip so results may be predictable. Im just wondering how the new range of plug ins that have ratings of anywhere from 155 MPG to 470 MPG are going to come out in the real world.

I remember Top Gear doing a silly test in a BMW M5 Vs a Prius. The prius was driven as fast as possible around the track, and the BMW had to keep up. The 4.0 litre BMW got 22 MPG, the prius got 19 MPG. A pointless test, but interesting none the less!

Draigflag 12-31-2014 06:45 AM

Well finally Audi is releasing the World's first plug in diesel hybrid. With a total of almost 400 HP, and official fuel consumption of 166 MPG, I think this car makes more sense than a gas hybrid. The diesel engine will be great for highway cruising, whilst the electric motor should be very efficient in urban environments. More info here:

http://www.greencarguide.co.uk/2014/...conomy-figure/

trollbait 12-31-2014 07:56 AM

Volvo came out with a plug in diesel a few years ago, so Audi isn't the first.

A diesel should do better than a gas on the highway, but they produce torque on the low end. This means more overlap with the electric motor on when which one is the best to use. A gasoline engine's output synchs up better to the motor. But there is a turbo gas(VW) and super charged(Nissan) hybrid system out there.

The hold back on diesel hybrids is simply cost. The engine and its emission controls weigh and cost more than the gas equivalent. The hybrid components add weight and cost. Combined the cost becomes unattractive to buyers.

The increased cost for a plug in's battery bumps up the extra premium, but makes the diesel cost an overall smaller portion of it. So a diesel PHV may be successful. Volvo's has been, and more so than expected.

I don't think this Audi has been ruled out for the US yet, but our higher diesel prices work against it.

Draigflag 12-31-2014 10:29 AM

Yea sure, but as you've said before, these premium expensive hybrids are more to do with status, it probably costs 3 or 4 times more than a small gas non hybrid car, but if it makes wealthy people feel like they are saving the planet, then fair enough! ;)

The weight is an issue like you say, even with the extreme measures theyve atempted, the car still weighs 2 tons.

itripper 01-04-2015 11:39 PM

Yes, I agree with Dragflag, fuelly gives a very realistic expectation of the mpg range a particular vehicle may have. I do not think there is a better way of measuring end user mpg than social media data gathering from sources like fuelly.


http://badges.fuelly.com/images/smallsig-us/319192.png

Draigflag 02-22-2015 10:44 AM

Been hearing some scary stories recently for the newer hybrids. The BMW i8, a design and engeneering masterpiece in my opinion, yet when Top Gear presenter Jeremy Clarkson took it on a 400 mile trip recently, he averaged just 31 MPG. That might not sound bad for a "hybrid supercar" that does 0-60 in just over 4 seconds, but compare it to the test cycle, and it's out by about 100 MPG!

Another auto journalist tested the Mitsubishi Outlander hybrid recently too, rated at 148 MPG, and again, it got a dissapointing 47 MPG.

If there's ever a time to change the EU test cycle, its now, how they can quote these figures and use them as the main selling point, it's almost criminal!

trollbait 02-22-2015 11:55 AM

I wouldn't use Top Gear as a source for fuel economy. They drive cars hard.

The Euro numbers for plug in hybrids let the cars use a full charge, but don't don't include the electric consumed in the figures.

Here's the EPA numbers for the i8: https://www.fueleconomy.gov/FEG/bymo...4_BMW_i8.shtml

Jcp385 02-22-2015 07:55 PM

I'll chime in with a +1 for diesel-hybrids.

Still wouldn't make me buy a hybrid, but...

...I can understand why it's not done. The start-stop nature of the ICE would kill a turbo exceptionally quickly.

Draigflag 02-22-2015 11:10 PM

No I would never use Top Gear as a source for economy, but its just another test by a real human in real world conditions. I hope in a way he did drive hard, it is designed to be driven in such a way.

Jcp385, I still having found a hybrid that I would buy yet either, apart from an old Civic, an old insight or a new CRZ, everything seems to have an auto box! Puke! ;)

Jay2TheRescue 02-23-2015 09:34 AM

Audi has Start/Stop on their turbo diesels.

trollbait 02-23-2015 12:09 PM

Material science hasn't stood still, so the turbos are better at handling heat.

Toyota and Ford hybrids don't have an automatic in the traditional sense. Mechanically, they are a single speed manual without a clutch. The computer controls engine and motor inputs to vary the effective ratio.

The first Insight and early Civic hybrid had a manual, but they suffered from early battery failure. Drivers were able to ,well, 'lug' the battery and overdraw from it.

Draigflag 02-23-2015 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay2TheRescue (Post 182064)
Audi has Start/Stop on their turbo diesels.

Most cars have stop/start now, mine included. It's a great way of saving fuel without consciously having to do anything. Pretty clever how they keep the heating and/or AC running too!

RunningOnFumes 02-23-2015 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draigflag (Post 180298)
Obviously hybrids are cleaner too, so its considered more ethical to use a hybrid around town to keep emission levels down.

You hear and read that about a lot or "renewable energy" devices but what did it cost environmentally to produce that electricity and same for the manufacture and disposal of solar panels.

You have to look at the whole picture, not just what is coming out the exhaust pipe that instant.

Draigflag 02-23-2015 11:06 PM

That's always been my point too, most of the electricity they use comes from burning fossil fuels anyway, but having a vehicle that has zero emissions in a crowded city urban environment within close proximity of humans is better than the fumes from petrol or diesel cars.

trollbait 02-24-2015 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RunningOnFumes (Post 182068)
You hear and read that about a lot or "renewable energy" devices but what did it cost environmentally to produce that electricity and same for the manufacture and disposal of solar panels.

You have to look at the whole picture, not just what is coming out the exhaust pipe that instant.

Whole picture includes many details.

Non-plugin hybrids generally come out ahead over their life time. The fuel saved, and less brake work to a small degree, and what gets reused or recycled, will cover the extra environmental cost that want into their manufacturer.

In regards to plugins, just moving the emissions out of the city can mean a big health and quality of life improvement for residents, even if the power generator is dirty. It is easier to monitor, regulate, and clean up emissions from a few central, sationary sources than from thousands of tiny, mobile ones.

Electricity can also be made cleaner and increase the renewables percentage over time. With a non-plugin, the ICE and emission equipment wears over time, getting dirtier. Then renewable fuels are still a tiny portion, and then needed gasoline and diesel will come increasingly more costly, energy intensive, and dirtier sources.

Then there are the national security advantages in the US's case of switching from a foreign energy source to domestic ones. Look what effect the Saudis have had on world oil prices in order to hurt political and economic rivals. Tar sands and shale oil are the economic ones. Shale oil exploration is stopping because of the ow cost of crude, and the current wells will only last 18 months or so.

shrey2smart 07-17-2015 01:58 PM

More city driving -> Hybrid. More highway driving -> Diesel vehicle.


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Draigflag 07-17-2015 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shrey2smart (Post 184450)
More city driving -> Hybrid. More highway driving -> Diesel vehicle.


http://badges.fuelly.com/images/sig-us/364764.png

True to some extent yes, however people who drive diesels have noticed they have benefits in urban environments. The low down torque and acceleration makes for brisk manouvers, away from traffic lights and or overtaking. And of course diesels use less fuel when idling than an ice. Diesel hybrids in my opinion offer the best of both worlds.

shrey2smart 07-17-2015 04:16 PM

Agreed, Diesel hybrid car if there were any right now I would have bought it. I dont see that happening here in US anytime soon. I see cars with bigger electric motors generating more torque and gas fuelled range extendor attached to them (similar to bmw i3 and volt to some extent) being a more practical approach for future cars to reduce emissions. I think pure electric drives accelerate from 0 (wheel spin is irritating sometimes) well also have good highway capabilities.

benlovesgoddess 08-01-2015 12:10 PM

I've been a diesel lover since the first time I realised I needed half as much money to cover the same amount of miles as in a petrol car. However, after hearing Mk1 Honda Insight and Mitsubishi PHEV owners in forums here, I would like to try either of those as my next car. Sort of academic for now (barring a lottery win, or netting an international customer!) as I will be keeping my Hyundai i20 for the next 8 and a half years to justify the cost of buying it from new. I guess a new Mitsubishi Outlander Diesel PHEV would be the sensible choice, but I absolutely love the look of the 1st gen Insight, especially in green with those silver wheels! I'm not interested in power and speed, though four wheel drive capabilities will be useful.

benlovesgoddess 08-01-2015 12:15 PM

And I agree that ISG, stop/start is great. I don't have A/C, but even with just the blower or stereo on, it won't always activate. The missus gets annoyed as she sits shivering in winter traffic jams while I make sure the engine will stop when the car does!

Draigflag 08-01-2015 12:16 PM

The Outlander is petrol/hybrid, plug in only. With the price of diesel now below petrol, you'd have to get over 62 MPG to match the fuel costs, and the only way to do that with a plug is to charge it every night (even then you only get 20 or 30 miles per charge) The smallest cheapest hybrid similar size to your Hyundai is probably an Auris or a Yaris perhaps.

benlovesgoddess 08-16-2015 01:21 PM

I think there is a Jazz too. When I bought my i20, I could have put down 2 000, but they d only take a 1k deposit. 1-2 months later I could have stuck another 1-2 grand to it and got a Mk1 insight. Thats what I would do if in the same situation, but with knowledge of the insight! If it turned out to be no good, I would have found out in year or 2 and gone for a new small diesel again. Possibly a MiTo. However, I m sticking with the hyundai for 10 years, thats the plan...

benlovesgoddess 08-16-2015 01:25 PM

Sorry, I thought the outlander phev had a diesel version!

Draigflag 08-16-2015 11:01 PM

There is a non hybrid version of the plug in which is diesel, perhaps that's where the confusion lies ;)

benlovesgoddess 08-18-2015 02:19 PM

Yes, that does explain it - I thought the plug in was also a diesel hybrid!

cuius 08-19-2015 07:35 AM

Most car magazine group tests of hybrids tend to compare them with diesel manuals, but don't take account of the fact that hybrids are automatics. Completely different animals, and with modern driving conditions an automatic is a large bonus.

Incidentally, checking my accounts for the last 10 years to December 2014, I've spent an average of €1470 per year on fuel (I usually do about 20,000 km a year) - so compared with the overall cost of motoring, a 10% rise/fall in fuel consumption is not a big deal

Draigflag 08-19-2015 08:22 AM

I disagree with the comment regarding the automatic gearbox, it's one of many reasons hybrids have never appealed to me. They are fine for disabled people and the very elderly, but I find them nasty to drive, noisy, unresponsive, they make that dreadful droning noise and in general have higher emissions and use more fuel too. There are several situations when they are very dangerous too, so I would never own one unless it's duel clutch with manual selector, but I still prefer having a clutch and gearstick any day.

benlovesgoddess 08-19-2015 10:42 AM

I agree about automatics being a poor choice - although a colleague has mentioned the new Smart he test drove having dual clutch 6 speed auto with manual override, said it was very good (though he prefers power to economy). Cuius, if 147 Euros is no big deal, you must be getting a better wage than I am! I always think of it as losing a frivolous item I could otherwise afford - the difference between owning or not owning a pedalo!
The whole point of improving economy,- whether in a diesel or hybrid, is surely geared at spending as little money on fuel as possible.

Draigflag 08-19-2015 11:23 AM

That's why we buy them yes, but the EU wants us to buy them to reduce C02 emissions ;)


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