Instead of being an early EV adopter...
 

...I've changed my mind. I now plan to be the last person to be driving a fossil fuel car.

My 26 y/o Honda will likely be 50 y/o when all of you are driving electric vehicles. And, I plan to drive like Mr. Magoo and loving it.

Paul, if you don't know who Mr. Magoo is, here's an American documentary...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjp8ctcdzdw

I thought that was going to be me with my 98 K1500. I still own the 81 Regal too, but she's not currently on the road.

It's easy to say that now, but the reasons for keeping a fossil fueled car will start to become few and far between, as costs fall, range increases and infrastructure is developed, you'll probably consider one in the future. There are probably only two in my tiny town, a BMW i3 and a Renault Zoe, like me, these owners have no where to park at home to charge, and there are jobs public charging points out here in the country, but they still make it work somehow.

My fuel costs less than insurance. I considered a new Nissan Leaf but the increased taxes and insurance easily surpassed the fuel cost in the Mirage. There is a Nissan Leaf on the local Craigslist with 34k miles, asking $7950. KBB says $6200 for a 5 year old Leaf car that was close to $30k new even with the $7500 tax credit.

Where are the glorious predicted battery improvements and cost reductions over the last 6 years, since that same Leaf was new? Not pie in the sky, purchaseable TODAY 6 YEARS LATER.

If those predictions were even barely accurate, that same Leaf would be a bargain, buy it and eventually replace the battery with one with twice the range, right? 200 mile electric car for $12k, would work perfectly for me, and I have 220 service in my geothermally heated garage (50 degrees minimum year round, $0 cost).

For now I love the 3.3 cents per mile fuel costs and $23 a month for insurance. Property taxes under $100 a year. Oil changes every 7500 for $16 using Mobil 1 and quality filters.

You only have to look at the multi billion dollar investments by huge companies to see how quickly things are changing, VW are bringing out about 30 new EV'S in the next few years, as are many other companies. There is probably a slower uptake in the US where emission standards are different, and fuel is cheaper than water, but over here, things will probably move quicker as fossil fueled cars become illegal in cities etc. Alot of the EV's coming out this year have ranges of 200-250, including the new VW Golf, Renault Zoe etc, and this range will go up every year, and the cost of batteries will fall.

The demand for used car batteries will also rise, for electricity storage etc, so this this generates a secondary market, bringing costs down even more. If you can't see the change happening, you're looking in the wrong place ;)

When they appear on the secondary market, I'm gonna connect a Tesla car battery to my Chromebook. It'll be the world's first laptop computer with a LIFETIME battery.

It wont be very portable, unless you attach it to a Fork lift truck!

For NEVER having to worry about recharging my laptop, I can live with that.

Laughing all the way to the bank. One of the reasons I can afford to pay cash for my new car, is I look at it like an accountant. I think my $12.9k (out the door-including everything) Mirage cost less than the DEPRECIATION on that Renault.

You can get a new Zoe for £6999, or $8600 US dollars, starting to make sense yet?

When self-driving cars are common and can be hailed and pick you up within minutes, car ownership will be a passe.

Speaking of accounting, they claim the average car sits unused 95% of the day. That's a costly asset to sit idle.

Ultimately, the cost of maintenance, inconvenience of storage, inconvenience of parking, rising cost of petrol, and just the stress of being wary of other drivers, AND the initial cost of buying a car will drive (pun unintended) people away from car ownership. It just won't pencil out.

Sure,
IF it had a 200 mile range.
IF it was available in the US.
If the battery was warranted for 10-100 at 80% of original capacity.

Been a long time since Renault sold cars here, but they are affiliated with Nissan, which seems to have developed some of their quality issues.

I have nothing against EVs, it's the price of admission that makes me hesitate.

The Mirage has 26k miles, 2 years owned in May 17. Should last me to 71 or so, for about another $6000. I can drive coast to coast for $100 in fuel and never stop for more than a few minutes.

The new model has a 250 mile official range, expected 186-200 real world. In another 3 year, it will no doubt be double that again. Renault/Nissan also own Mitsubishi remember, and Renault rank just below Toyota in the reliability stakes. Renault also have the largest choice of commercial electric vehicles as far as I can tell. I was kind of in the same boat as you, getting over 60 MPG in my previous car, it made an electric car cost twice as much to run, but that's probably because I don't do enough miles, for a lot of people, they can yield huge savings. Even the Mercedes B220 EV which shares a lot of parts with the Tesla Model S can be had for less than £200 a month now.

"In another 3 years it will be double that"

Yet another ludicrous prediction. The first EV available in the US in mass quantities has seen no significant range increase IN 6 YEARS.

FACT

Renault-Nissan does NOT own Mitsubishi. Mitsubishi is something like the 5th largest global conglomerate and could probably buy Renault-Nissan with their available cash-securities. After the fuel mileage fiasco Renault-Nissan bought around 35% of Mitsubishi's vehicle manufacturing subdivision.

FACT

How about posting facts capable of being verified with real evidence.

If the trajectory of your fantasy battery prediction was even close to factual then based on the over 100 year existence of lithium battery tech we could drive a car around the world on a single charge.

I remember the e-store claim of a 250 miles range after a 5 minute recharge.

The claim was so ludicrous they did not even bother to consider the fact that that much energy can NOT be transmitted through any residential power grid without instantly incinerating the residence itself.

In California and Colorado, the total incentive value is over $12k for a new Leaf. Then there are many used ones going on the market because of higher lease rates, with expected improvements in next generation, this all leads to low prices on used cars.

When the federal tax credit law was written, the prediction was that Li-ion costs would drop 7% per year; not glorious but slow and steady. The actual rate has been better; 8% to 10% on average.

We are talking cars with 5 to 6 year generation cycles, not smart phones with one year ones. There are costs involved in upgrading a major component on a car that can make waiting until the next generation more attractive to the manufacturer. Toyota had developed the 40% peak thermal efficiency ICE in the new Prius a few years before, and chose not to put it into the gen3 as soon as it was ready.

In BEVs, the Leaf and iMiEV received battery upgrades during a model generation. The Leaf got the lizard pack that was resistant to heat damage, and the iMiEV got a chemistry that performed better in the cold. Neither resulted in an increase to range.

The Spark EV got a battery upgrade too, but I don't know what it improved. The Volt got the same upgrade with a slight boost to EV performance, but the car got a bigger boost when GM released their initial capacity buffer was too conservative, and they let the car use more of it.

The 101 mile Leaf has a MSRP of around $34k. The next generation BEV Bolt has 238 miles for a little more than three grand more. The next gen Leaf should arrive in 2018, and will have a range comparable to the Bolt.

The only manufacturer that will likely support upgraded packs for older cars is Tesla. The others won't for the same reason phone and tablet manufacturers don't support upgrading components on their products; they want you to buy the new model.

An aside, the leaf is a larger, and nicer car than a Mirage.

In the week I was away for the holidays, gas rose over twenty cents a gallon where I live.

If you're going to be a grumpy old bugger about stuff, at least quote me properly, I said it will "no doubt be double that" that's not a quoted fact, just a personnel assumption based on how quickly the tech is developing. Lithuim air battery tech is currently being developed, Lithium-air means using oxygen as the oxidiser, rather than a material. The result is batteries that can be a fifth of the price and a fifth as light as lithium-ion, plus they could make phones and cars last five times longer. Then there's silicon-graphene, a huge breakthrough in energy density that could in a few years give a 300% jump in battery energy density, that could triple electric car driving range. Batteries are already priced lower than the 2020 predictions, the cost will only keep falling.

These "break through's" are happening all the time, you need to keep up old boy!

In a Netherlands interview, Elon Musk claims technology advances extend battery capacity by 5-10% per year. Keep in mind that's compounded annually. That's how we're about to jump from the typical 80 mile EV range to the 2017 Bolts and Model 3 Teslas with 200+ mile ranges.

Of course, this won't affect me, as I will the last man standing with the ONLY petrol car in the world. I just need to build my own backyard oil refinery to process crude oil.

Musk followed in the footsteps of Joseph Kennedy. Both bailed out of a stock market that was oversold and overhyped. Both contributed greatly to the depressions that followed with old Joe's depression taking 25 years and a World War to see the market recover to the levels of late 1929.

Roosevelt was so impressed with Joe Kennedy's timing he made him the first head of the securities and exchange commission. In essence "the fox running the chicken coop", but it was an expensive lesson for old Joe, costing him two sons and one lobotomized daughter.

Has the Nasdac reached the $5k level where it was when Musk bailed with his half billion.

Been reading about battery tech advancements for at least 4 decades. Ain't happened yet.

If the world was so close to a catastrophic global climate situation, then why would Toyota still be practicing the century old planned obsolescence with their hybrid advancements. Maybe their customers are complaining about saving too much fuel.

Ah, don't answer anything directly that might reveal your flawed thinking. Use a propaganda tactic called "killing the messenger"
While you act as a proponent of better efficiency, your actions are just the opposite. I had my "crazy with the power period" with cars when gas was 30 cents a gallon in the US, pre OPEC. I held CDs that paid 5% in 2008-9 while the US stock market crashed from $14k to $6.5k and never lost a dime in that market. People that laughed at me for staying out of the market lost hundreds of thousands of dollars.

You get one chance at this life. For your own sake maybe listening and respecting those whose life experiences exceed your own by vast amounts, just might save you a few predictable and easily avoidable situations, but based on what you post here, I doubt it.

Nope, I'm one of those people who just doesn't give a hoot about anyone's opinions, especially dinosaurs like you, stuck in the past with your exceedingly niave and outdated thoughts, like mentioning 600 year old Historical events and applying them to the gun laws of today, keep it up, it's hilarious to read you dig your own grave haha. There's no point trying to analyse me buddy, you know very little about me and my personal life, but I can assure you, it's very fun, I make the most of it and the fact that I spent double my wage in 2016 proves that. Learn not to be a wimp and take things personaly and you'll start loving what's left of your life too ;)

I read Joe Kennedy made his fortune as a "drug dealer" of his era by transporting alcohol during the prohibition. It's this fact that modern day drug dealers feel they, too, will be eventually "legitimized" and accepted, such as what happened with Joe Kennedy.

I just went to Wikipedia to corroborate that detail about Joe Kennedy and there was zero mention about it. There was a mention about Joe Kennedy negotiating his importing UK alcohol AFTER the prohibition. Was the Joe Kennedy Wiki page sanitized?

Wikipedia, while accurate for most things, can be wildly inaccurate for others. For example, the Scientologist's Wiki has a running battle with people updating their Wiki page. Scientologist members continuously have to rewrite the page to stop the "truth" about their organization from being revealed.

Ah yet another personal attack. Only one here digging their own grave is he who sees spending twice, what he made, in a year as good judgement. Invest maybe, spend, nope. I like my assets pushing 7 digits.

His investment strategy, "trading in tomorrow for today"

His hobby complaining about legal situations in a country where he can not vote and his words mean nada.

Chewchew, Joe had the concession for scotch whisky in the USA, maybe Canada also, so if you wanted scotch legally it came through Joe. I never really googled or wickied the history but seldom did one making money on alcohol stop making money during prohibition. Probably sanitized to make him more saintly, but he still has a lot of death and suffering on his back from the consequences of the great depression.

They pulled about 10 million of their capital out of the market a week before it crashed.

LMAO at the "depreciation' rationale concerning a 5 year old EV. I guess you are advocating a strategy of planned obsolescence on steroids as far as any secondary market on EVs.

Kind of hard to "delete" a section of a printed manuscript, unless you have a couple of thousand years to do a bunch of later editions. Pre war bibles dated the existence of mankind at 4000 BC.

About as accurate as DFs EV evolution predictions.

You made it personal RIDE, when me and trollbait proved you wrong several times, rather than thank us for the interesting and useful information, you get all frustrated by being so wrong and start insulting people, it's bizarre behaviour. Here we call it "throwing your teddies out the pram" haha. Just relax, this is a forum, not a conference with global leaders.

(p.s. Don't mention, the 400+ mile range EV available in March, he might just flip his lid)

But, I'm a global leader in my own mind. ;)

RIDE if you're reading this, be more like this guy ^^^^ Doug from California, and stop taking things so seriously ;)

Yeah. But don't mimic my dancing-ability. That would be just plain wrong. :)

So how's Briexit turning out so far, Paul? I heard it could take years to disentangle the UK from the union.

I've not watched the news this year, mainstream media is mainly for the gullible masses of whom I'm not a part of. But from what I hear, nobody has a Brexit plan, and depending who you talk to, its either going to make or break Britain.

How's Trump? Has he draped those red banners over the whitehouse yet? ;)

Hey Doug, here's an idea for you, Renault has just announced its going to sell its all electric twizy platform minus the body, to anyone who wants to build thier own EV. Now if you shortened your Honda, and narrowed it down a tad, you could still have the look and feel of your car, but with an electric powertrain. Sounds any good? ;)

Renault launches opensource EV at CES 2017 | Next Green Car

https://www.nationalchurchillmuseum....quote-history/

Laughing all the way to the bank. Enjoy your $6 a gallon fuel in a car that basically gets the same mileage as my 25 year old truck.

They're renting Twizzies in San Francisco. I saw one. SF gets pretty cold, so the ride can be uncomfortable, as I recall the Twizzy doesn't have side windows.

Hmmm. I suppose they can't sell the Twizzy as-is, because it won't pass US crash testing. So they're selling JUST the platform and letting other builders deal with the gov't regulations.

Any mention about the cost, Paul?

LMAO, maybe they should take the guns away from the Palace Guards. Replace them with machetes. While your at it take away, hammers, frying pans, anything with a blade, sticks, stones, anything with wheels.

It's charming people outside the US take more interest in US politics than many US citizens.

According to Obama and Hillary, YOU are allowed to vote, too, Paul!

Just saw a YouTube video explaining why governments are encouraging wholesale emigration of Muslims into Europe. It's NOT humanitarian. It's financial.

The birthrate is not at replacement levels in developed Western and Asian countries (Japan and South Korea). The South Korean population graph curve means they could be "extinct" by 2050.

With a low birthrate there's not enough of a tax base paid by younger people to fund the retiree social benefits.

Government leaders likely communicated through back channel communications to hatch the "Muslim humanitarian" plan.

They knew that Muslim and European cultures would are ideology opposed. Islam is not JUST a religion. Islam brings Sharia law, too. There's no separation between church and state.

Given a choice between a world in financial ruin or a clash of cultures, western leaders chose the later, likely hoping the friction would eventually settle down. But it doesn't look like it.

It's one thing to practice your religion privately. It's another thing when your religion requires I must convert or your must kill me.

I'm not religious. I don't even blindly follow a political platform. For example, I supported Bernie Saunders over Hillary. But given a choice between caught lying 5x to congress, cheating Bernie Saunders in the primary, stealing $$$ from the Haitian children, starting more military conflicts than Bush (7 vs 5), political-insider Hillary OR a political outsider Trump, for me, the choice was so obvious.

Interestingly, another YouTube video reports that Japan is NOT allowing Muslim immigrants. The Japanese have a history of being a closed society, so this is no surprise.

Also, I read the primary reason for Japanese robotics is to have a robot population available to care for their elderly.

Like you, Paul, I don't trust Mainstream Media, which is has been exposed as a big-business propaganda mouthpiece for governments to control their citizens.

News is no longer journalism. It's entertainment, which brings more viewers, which translates into higher advertising rates. The more sensational the more viewers. It's a tailspin that journalism, if you can call it that anymore, will never recover.

Been going through a week of rain here in the San Francisco area. Days have started getting longer for the northern hemisphere since Dec. 21. How's the weather there, Paul?

25y/o truck?! HA! I see your truck and raise that with my 28y/o Civic.

What the #^%# why bring Canada into the cat fight ??? Just paid $1.51 a litre cdn for my last fill up so converting to US gallons it works out to be close to $6 or over in Imperial.

I got rid of my 65 mpg car for this one because I can afford it, and I favoured performance over economy this time. It's actually exceptionally good on fuel for a car that does 0-60 in just over 5 seconds and 155 MPH, and no doubt it's 10 tens the car that horrible little plastic thing is that you drive. You can still get very nice fuel efficient cars without having to sacrifice comfort, luxury, build quality, performance, safety, dignity, style but maybe those things aren't important to you?

Anyway, I can see the transition from grumpy old man to full blown Internet troll is almost complete, happy days! Haha

Hey Doug. The Twizy has been here for a while, some have doors, others don't, but there are lots of aftermarket kits available, windows etc to add if you want. It's only designed for short journeys, comfier than a motorcycle, but not as a car. It's actually classed a quadricylce here, so no need for safety regs, similar to motorcycle. I wanted one for a while, but the battery rental wouldn't be worth the limited use it would get.

It's a good idea though, I like the idea of having the base, drivetrain etc and just building up from there, we'll no doubt see some creative ideas. No mention of cost yet.

An issue for a Twizy platform in the US is that there isn't a quadricycle class here. So it needs to lose a wheel or meet the safe regs for a full size car.

What class do ATV's fall under over there? It should be the same class technically, although probably safer due to the roll cage, seat belt, air bag etc.

Geez, reading through the comments it looks like there are a lot of political comments by everybody. Nowadays it is hard to talk about politics, global warming or the over population problem without offending somebody.

https://www.fuelly.com/attachments/fo...ce9dad396d.jpg

Regarding EV cars. Car And Driver did an article on the battery price, and there is a certain dollar number that everybody is watching closely, as soon as batteries reach this cost per kwh, it will be more profitable for car makers to sell electrical cars than cars with engines. They are predicting this year to be 2020. The price of a battery will be also affected by the opening of the Giga Factory, I read that they started production this month.

The same thing happened to carburetors on cars versus fuel injection. There was a time when carburetors were just not efficient enough to meet emission regulations compared to fuel injection. The latest carburetors had a lot of electronic controls on them to make them meet emissions, it was more costly to make them than having fuel injection. I think the same thing will happen to ICE cars versus electric. Eventually regulations will be so strict that it will not make financial sense to produce ICE cars.

Paul, should I be happy that my 11 years old car is quicker and faster than your new car or sad that a 1.6L 4cylinder car has almost the same performance as a 5.5L V8 from 11 years ago? I'm planning on doing some modifications this summer to get to 400hp and 420lbft before they come and take my fun away.

I'm tryin' my best. But, I'm JUST one person. Gimme a chance. I can only offend so many people at one time. ;)

Sometimes it turns into a "3 Stooges" pie fight in here.

Paul, in case you don't know, the "3 Stooges" were a famous American political alliance that formed the bedrock of the current Obama and Hillary democratic party policies. BTW, I voted TWICE for Obama, in case anyone is thinking about throwing pies in my direction. Paul, no need to research this fact. Take my word for it. You're welcome to chat that up that fact at your local pub. People will be impressed. I'm sure of that.