Electric V's Hybrid
 

A well renowned consumer magazine has a nice comparison between the latest Renault Zoë, and the updated Toyota Yaris hybrid this month. Both cars are similar in class, size, shape, price and performance. So how do the stats stack up?

The Toyota hybrid scored very badly during their real world fuel consumption tests. In town, as you'd expect, it was good, they recorded 80 MPG. On the motorway however, the yaris returned an average of 37.7 MPG, pretty horrific for any small car, never mind a hybrid. Out in the rural roads, they got 57.5 MPG, overall they averaged just 49.2 MPG, the official NEDC figures were 85.6 MPG, although we're all used to how optimistic they are by now. Cost per 10000 miles is £1098 in the UK.

The Zoë offered real world range of around 138 miles, costing £4.80 to fully charge on a 12p per kWh Tariff, so the 10000 mile cost in the Zoë is just £348, almost a third of that of the Yaris hybrid.

Whilst both cars have a near identical 0-60 time and hp figure, the Zoë has twice as much torque making it feel much quicker, and the 30-50 mph number is identical too at 5 seconds. Whilst the Zoë zips away in silence, the yaris gets a thumbs down for its noisy engine, no thanks to the dreadful CVT gearbox setup.

Most people assume electric cars are far more expensive to buy, especially with those that have battery lease. But amazingly, the Zoë works out cheaper to buy and run over 3 years than the Yaris. With the government £4500 plug in grant, the Zoë works out a whooping £5000 cheaper to buy than the Toyota. The cost breakdown is as follows.

Renault Zoë: list price £22,670 target price £13,231

Depreciation = £9377

Insurance = £1566

Servicing = £654

Road tax = £0

Electricity = £1043

Battery lease = £3204

Total = £15844



Yaris hybrid: list price £19,545 target price £18,289

Depreciation = £10,862

Insurance = £1101

Servicing = £571

Road tax = £260

Petrol = £3295

Total = £16089

So there you go, we know the benefits of going electric, besides cleaner, greener, quieter, smoother, more refined, more reliable, instant torque and more of it, the convenience of being able to start every day fully charged if you have a driveway, and all the other perks, we now know they're cheaper to buy and run, even with battery lease included which has the added benefit of never needing to pay for a replacement battery in the future. Ever heard the term tipping point?

Very interesting article. I recently read some research that electric car like Tesla produce more C02 than small petrol car with economic engine.

Those articles are biased by only talking about the production emissions.

Yes, the electric car does have higher CO2 emissions from production, but the emissions from burning fossil fuels in an ICE quickly over shadow that. Leaving the electric with lower emissions over the car's lifetime.

There's a lot of garbage out there, not sure why whenever a revolutionary concept comes along, people always question it's credentials. Funny how no one really cared about the carbon footprint, or C02 production emissions of any car, or the fuel used until EV's came along.

That Zoe's styling looks great, but you kind of have to factor in an electric car charger when you get that car, unless there is a charger where you work. New Toyotas look so unfortunate, that Yaris looks like a dog's breakfast.

I could do do my daily commute for a week and only have to charge the car on the weekends. Others wouldn't even have the range to GET to work. It's horses for courses.

I believe there's a £500 grant from the government to have a fast charger installed at your place of work, or home.

Some suggest the real world range of the Zoë is closer to 186 miles, I can't imagine there are too many people, besides the likes of those that earn a living on the road reps etc, that have a commute to work longer than that, perhaps a small handful.

I used to do 100 mile each way and that was enough for me.

As much as those who really like to push for electrification of personal transportation want to minimize the negatives and to fictionally demonize all other technologies in order to make electric cars look better comparatively; I am very skeptical of the promise of any products coming to market to deliver on "said" ratings, longevity, range, performance, etc. Comparing a full electric to a hybrid doesn't impress me, as the concept of a parallel hybrid is one of the least attractive technologies to enter production ever. I mean, as I do try to stay open-minded regarding all auto tech concepts, how does two fuels, two fuel tanks, two power plants, working, and two drives working in parallel, in one car compete with any single system from a cost standpoint. Hurray to Toyota for making this work from a business sense, but mass marketing this concept into many auto segments seems unlikely as anything close to a fuel-saving solution. On the other hand, if serial hybrid systems could ever prove efficient (more efficient than Chevy Volt with the gas generator running), then I'm very interested in that concept.

My main issue with e cars is the same as it is with all other cordless products, at least as they are marketed in the U.S. The manufacturers and distributors all get away with exaggerating performance and price-to own-and-operate, and do not face near the scrutiny from gov't regulators, the media, and most-importantly, they do not self regulate and do not join together to produce products that are adaptable to all brands in the same classes. Imagine if an owner of a gas-powered car had to drive around looking for a Honda gas pump to fill his/her tank with the same fuel as what a Ford uses, and the industry is doing this to themselves, because they want to compete with each other instead of ICEs. I'm all for the concept of electric cars for the future, but the industry must start to get it together and start giving us realistic performance data that matches the real world.

I can give many examples of the disparity between the two power sources and how ICEs are required to over promise while e everything under promises and disappoints; especially cordless. I love electric motors and would love not to own or use any ICE equipment if I could get value and performance and be told the truth. I tried a 21" corded electric push mower. Unlike cordless stuff, at least the corded equipment lists amps instead of volts, but when a 13 amp mower draws only 8 amps and when the 21" mower is actually the deck size and not the blade size (MTD lost a law suit over a slight hp rating exaggeration and no gas mower could ever get away with using deck size instead of blade size as a deception). I've got Black and Decker weed trimmer and dealt dill. Same company, same amp-hr batteries, but the batteries are not compatible. Zero motorcycles claim 100 mile highway range, but can't even go a fraction of that distance in an FE contest even streamlined.

So maybe the cars are better, but I can't risk $30K to find out.

I too see hybrids as a thole to range in electric vehicles. As EVs get usable range and recharging times, hybrids will go the way of VCRs.
Charging points needs government legislation. As mains electrical outlets needed legislation to create standards, albeit different in different countries, so too will charging points. However, in these early years of EV technology, until some standardisation in technology is reached there can be no standardisation in charging protocol.
Stand by for graphene-based hybrid supercapacitor technology...
500 mile range and 1 minute recharge!

https://electrek.co/2017/11/14/fiske...electric-cars/

Something along these lines could completely change charging (High Voltage - Low Current), so until some sort of technology is settled on there is no point in forcing standardisation of charging points. Hopefully, as the big manufacturers get on board, they will work out some standard, especially as there seems to be many collaborations coming to the fore.

I'm enjoying 4.5 cents a mile in a rescue from the scrapper Echo that cost me $850. The Mirage is taking a break to get the 10-100 power train and 5-60 bumper to bumper warranty back in sync, by next june it will be there, but that's only 833 miles a month so actually it needs to take a one year break. Difference in fuel is $10 per 1000 miles at current prices, which are far below what was predicted just a few years ago. :D

With AVERAGE vehicle ages in the US close to 11 years, any transition will be glacially slow. To me it's like watching movies, pay a lot to see it now, or a small fraction to see it later. Until then I have a garage full of stuff I bought with the coin I did not spend on fuel. Nothing borrowed either, makes for a comfortable life on a relatively small income and even lower tax liabilities, kind of a snowball effect anyone can exercise if they have the determination. :angel:

Jack up the fuel price? Just ride the bike more at 2.5 cents a mile. Property taxes are almost a joke with the Mirage depreciated to $5k with 37 k on the odometer. By far my greatest annual cost is insurance and if I bought a $30k plus car the insurance and taxes would wipe out and fuel savings altogether. :)

At garage sales you can buy battery powered tools for a few cents on the dollar, since the batteries cost more to replace than the residual value on the tools. The last IC powered tool I have is a pressure washer that I paid $50 for, Haven't used it in months. :lol:

06 Prius $3k with new $3k battery 214k miles.
https://norfolk.craigslist.org/cto/d...392911497.html

I recommended a Black & Decker cordless electric lawn mower to my brother years ago. I usually don't give out bad advise, but that was one of them. The three batteries that came with the machine were not usable after two years and Black & Decker changed their batteries; so the lawn mower with the batteries were junk after two years. F... Black & Decker for not supporting their products. I told my brother that if the batteries go in a few years, just replace them with better ones. How wrong I was. He bought a double blade Honda lawn mower (with catalytic converter) last year with the cheating diesel money he got from Volkswagen; he's never been happier.

I rode a Zero electric bike a few years ago, it was nice; but not $15,000 nice; more like $5,000 nice. All the electric bike manufacturers went belly up a few years ago.

I like electric cars, but I'm cheap; so I would like them even more for half price. Here is a video I watched years ago that compares EVs vs ICE:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9m9WDxmSN8

I think Renault are doing the right thing leasing batteries, ok so it's another monthly payment, but so is fuel. As you can see with the comparison, even with an efficient hybrid, the costs now are still cheaper. It will help depreciation too, imagine 10-12 years down the line when the battery has lost a bit of capacity, who's going to pay Russian roulette and risk buying an EV with a tired battery, knowing they may have to fork out more than the cars value in the near future? If you buy a used EV where the battery has been leased, and it needs replacing 2 months after you bought it, well the previous owners monthly payments have covered it, and you essentialy get a "new" car, with the same range it left the factory with. In fact, used EV's with tired batteries might be worth MORE as people will be hoping for a new battery to be fitted.

The trouble with cars with leased batteries is no one wants to buy them secondhand. The sellers are having to buy the lease out before they can sell them.
New car buyers find a lease just an additional payment to their car finance. However, for the punter buying a used car, they are not in a position to fork out a large monthly payment (if they were they would probably be purchasing a much newer vehicle). With the Zoe it will cost £89 a month for battery hire, if you do 10,000 miles per year. My local Ford dealer is offering a new Fiesta for £139/mth!

The lease is transferred to the next buyer until the battery needs replacing. As batteries become more durable and last longer, the costs will be adjusted and keep falling. Yea a new Fiesta is £139 a month, but add another £100 for fuel. I spent £10,000 on fuel on my Fiat 500, with parts, servicing and everything else, I spent over £21,000 in 5 years, and that's a tiny car.

A Nissan Leaf coming off a 3 year lease depreciates about $21k, not including taxes, registration, cost of fuel (electricity), insurance and maintenance (at least a set of tires).

While it's not really fair to compare per mile costs between the US and UK. We have not even considered the option of used, which brings the Echo into the equation, where the depreciation for 37 k miles is basically non-existent. It's entirely possible after bringing everything up to date, that I could cover another 37k miles for a total cost of less than $5k, and sell the car for $1500 to $2k when that distance is covered, bringing TCO down to less than 10 cents a mile.

I know the lease is transferred. But second hand buyers, of older cars, don't want a car with a lease. Most don't have the wherewithal for a steep monthly payment.
If I was in the position to buy a new car, I would. I cannot, so I buy secondhand. I still have the on costs to pay for whether new or secondhand.

Yea I used to do that, my first few cars were all second hand, saved a fortune, enough to buy my first brand new car aged 21. I could continue doing that too, but I love cars, and I don't mind spending or loosing money on them. As long as you get a good discount to begin with, and sell before it looses too much money. Not worth comparing a car about to be scrapped to a brand new one in my opinion.

I do the opposite. I buy a fairly old car, run it until it is done, then replace it. Not doing too bad. I have only had 4 cars (including the Jazz) in the last 26 years, and I hope to get at least another 5 years out of the one I have at present.

If I knew my Mirage was going to depreciate as much as it did, as well as how close the Echo was in MPG potential, I probably would not have bought new. I could not agree more, let someone else rent the depreciation, then pluck it up with 30k miles for less than half the new cost. Saves on insurance and taxes as well.

A $7k leaf would work fine for my parents, even for us locally, but then she wants to go to her two daughters houses which would make on impractical and she has not driven one of my manual trans cars once.

A quick technical correction first, Toyota hybrids are power-split ones; they have both parallel and series operation. The Volt is also a power-split, though it prefers series operation. The i3 REx is the only pure series hybrid I am aware off. Hyundai, and what Ford is putting into the F150, is a straight parallel hybrid.

Hybrids can be very effective in reducing fuel use. They are a tough sell in the US because our fuel is cheap. That isn't the case in the other major car markets.

We are going to see some degree of hybridization spread to all cars in the future as regulations push better efficiency and cleaner emissions. The 2018 Equinox, Malibu, and F150 already have an auto start/stop system standard across the line up.. Going mild hybrid won't take much more.

Plug in cars under go the same EPA testing that ICE cars do, with the same limits of advertising. An electric car's EV range on the window sticker can not exceed what was possible from the the testing and adjusting. Just like fuel economy numbers, there is the your mileage may vary disclaimer.

The AC charging plug and protocol is standardized. This is the one used for level 1 and level 2 charging, and almost everyone uses it. Tesla is the exception, but they include an adapter with their cars. The plug in Europe is different than the one in other markets, but so is the plug to charge your phone.

The different DC charging standards is because of greed and ego, and need need. ChAdeMO from Japan was the first. The company that held its rights was charging high licensing fees at first, and even charging companies to just experiment with it. CHAdeMO, at the time, wasn't fast enough for Tesla, so they developed Supercharger. Because of the fees, and maybe baser reasons, the European and American car companies developed and supported CCS.

To the user, the difference between CHAdeMO and CCS is the plug, and diesel cars face that issue because the nozzles for commercial trucks won't fit. When CCS arrived, the tird party charging networks started installing chargers with both plugs. It adds a couple hundred or so to the cost, but installing the charger already costs $60k to $100k. They are also free to add a Supercharger plug if they wanted too.

The faster rates needed for solid state batteries and capacitors will likely be built upon those standards. There issues beyond the plug shape that need to be addressed. First is in supplying power fast enough to the charger for those 5min or less rates. Next is in making a manageable cable for the plug. It will be thick and heavy if just increasing the gauge for the power.

I can give many examples of the disparity between the two power sources and how ICEs are required to over promise while e everything under promises and disappoints; especially cordless. I love electric motors and would love not to own or use any ICE equipment if I could get value and performance and be told the truth. I tried a 21" corded electric push mower. Unlike cordless stuff, at least the corded equipment lists amps instead of volts, but when a 13 amp mower draws only 8 amps and when the 21" mower is actually the deck size and not the blade size (MTD lost a law suit over a slight hp rating exaggeration and no gas mower could ever get away with using deck size instead of blade size as a deception). I've got Black and Decker weed trimmer and dealt dill. Same company, same amp-hr batteries, but the batteries are not compatible. Zero motorcycles claim 100 mile highway range, but can't even go a fraction of that distance in an FE contest even streamlined.

So maybe the cars are better, but I can't risk $30K to find out.[/QUOTE]

If you can solder, you can refurbish the battery. Just crack open the case and replace the cells, which are generic, off the shelf parts. You can't switch between Li-ion and NiMH, because of the different voltages and charging needs though.

Some are still around.

Incentives are skewing those numbers. Between the federal and state ones, a new Leaf will get $10k or more off in California and Colorado. That depresses the used car prices.

Then the batteries have been steadily improving in ability and cost. Which hurts the previous models' value. Then early Leafs had batteries suspectable to heat degradation.

If you want to pick up a used BEV to try out, it is a buyers market now.

I'm currently watching an EV on eBay, fairly local to me within 60 miles (most are several hundred miles away in places like London) so watch this space ;)

I am somebody who has hovered round the EV scene for nearly a year now. As a low mileage driver I had come to the conclusion that they made sense as a used buy. I was happy to hire an ICE car for longer trips. Indeed I made a rough note each day as to how many times even a 24 kwh Nissan Leaf might struggle and I got right through to late September. (I'd had a long trip down to Cornwall for a week but I'd have hired an ICE for that). Then 2 trips have come up which would have been an absolute nightmare in even a 30kwh Leaf because of gaps in the charging infrastructure. For me, at any rate, as a one car family, hybrids seem a more logical way to go until gaps in the charging infrastructure are filled in. If I had 2 cars? Well one would be an EV no question.

Paul, which EV are you considering? I saw a Mitsubishi iMev on the highway the other day, it was one of those "I have no idea what kind of car this is" moments when I passed it. It was going 70mph and was in front of me for like 10 miles on the highway, I never see EVs on the highway here.

The Mitsubishi iMev is a full EV, with 62 mile EPA range, since replaced by the PHEV. My intention is to get a full EV (Leaf, ZOE or e-Golf), but hang on to my Jazz (no point in scrapping it) for trips I need the extended mileage (3 or 4 a year).

Yea that started life as a Kei car in Japan, with the 660cc rear mounted turbo, which was sold in small numbers in the UK. The EV version is also available as a Peugeot and a Citroën, although its tiny real world range makes it a bit useless, and I'm not sure where they got the batteries from, but I've heard they can be problematic.

I was watching a twizy with 7k on the clock, the battery rental is about £40 a month, but for more or less the same price, you can get a Zoe with 38k on the clock. Owner was asking £3900, I think a Zoe is a better buy with its extra comfort, practicality, safety etc etc.

Renault ZOE 22kW battery rental starts at £49 for <4500 miles per annum and goes up to £89 for a maximum mileage of 10,500. The 40kW costs £10 a month more, and for £110 you can use car for unlimited mileage.
Twizy starts at £45 for <4500 miles for a 3 year contract and £55 for a 1 year contract.
Puts me off completely.

Why does it put you off? The whole comparison took everything into account including battery rental, it's still cheaper than a hybrid, maybe not a small diesel. I spend around £120 a month on fuel, for £10 a month less, I could do as many miles as I want on the unlimited tarif.

You have also to factor in the cost of the electricity you use (unless you can charge the vehicle from self generated solar energy).
I do 10,000 miles a year and spend £75/month (average ) on petrol. That would cost me £89/ month for lease of a 22kW battery. Add to that £26/month for electricity (figures for a 30kW Leaf from https://pod-point.com/landing-pages/...g-electric-car ) and I would be £40/month worse off.

I would say £10 extra a week isn't bad for an EV, you have to factor in the benefits too, such as larger wider parking spaces closer to the entrance of shops when you do a weekly shop (which I believe is still free in most stores to charge) full free charge when you get a service, being able to charge at home and start every day with a full tank so to speak, free fuel in lots of places, performance, smoothness, refinement, quietness, ease of driving, environmental/local air quality impact, lower maintenance etc. That £10 a week more might be worth it to some.

I can have all that without forking out for battery leasing, if I buy an EV with an "owned" battery. That is what I intend doing.
And only 3% of UK supermarkets offer free EV charging to customers.
https://www.zap-map.com/zap-analysis-supermarkets/
And none are within EV range of me!
Are there any near you?

No you make fair points, we both live fairly rural with poor charging infrastructure, this is why I havn't got an EV yet, that and the ones I can afford are not "Sporty" or sexy enough for me haha. I couldn't even charge at home as I have no parking, driveway, garage etc, but I would have a charger put in my place of work with the grant available. I think my nearest Tesla supercharger is almost 100 miles away too. Still £400,000,000 allocated in the Autumn budget towards charging infrastructure, this could change pretty quick.

I think your plan of keeping the Jazz (Fit) as an occasional longer range car is a good one Jocko. My Jazz is quite new (well to me anyway - it's 4 years old) and I've got a bit of the capital I would need to buy a used EV tied up in my present car but it's something I'm mulling over. In fact, if I went down that route, I could even cope with a Nissan Leaf with, say, 10 bars on the battery.
I change my mind every day!

PS

Just to add, it would be a bit like having a PHEV but with 2 vehicles instead of one!

I too do not have suitable parking, though that will change shortly. Another of the budget items was free charging for EVs, at work, won't be classed as benefit-in-kind, so won't be taxed.
My Jazz is 11 years old and not worth the selling, so for £130/year VED, plus low cost, extremely low mileage insurance, make it worth hanging on to. It will give me something to tinker with!
Once I move to the new house, just south of Edinburgh, I will probably be down to about 10-15 miles a week, mainly for shopping, with free bus travel every time I need to go into the city. The odd 90 mile round trip, once every couple of months, will see the Jazz brought out.

Admittedly I've been making the most of our free public transport here, until May next year, regardless of age, anyone can travel on the busses at weekends for free, even as far as Wrexham which is a 100 mile trip. It's a great taxi service late at night when me and my friends have had 18 pints! ;)

Good debate y'all, glad to see it.

Drove 170 miles today to visit the daughters for Thanksgiving. Driving home on a route I am not real familiar with, at night, the wife tells me I need to move over one lane to change routes. I'm in the center of 5 lanes. so I go to check the right mirror, with about 4 seconds to execute the lane change. She has her hand blocking the passenger rear view mirror. Instead of moving her hand as requested, she wants to argue that her hand is not blocking the rear view mirror. As my voice escalates in volume she gets mad about that volume but finally gets her friggin hand out of the way so I can check the lane before moving over.

The sad thing is I predicted this a few weeks back when I told her, what happens when an emergency is imminent and you do not follow my order in order to prevent a catastrophe. Now she wants to debate the voice volume, but finally admits she was not thinking about the passengers outside mirror but the inside rear view mirror.

"You finally got it, You were not thinking, when you should have just done what I told you".

"you could have got us both killed tonight".

End of stupid debate.

Nothing to do with this thread but just need to vent a little. Keep it going mates.

That tends to be a US problem, not seen in the UK, regarding use of lanes. In the UK, on multi-lane roads, we drive on the nearside lane, moving out a lane only to pass slower traffic. On a busy road you have slow traffic (trucks) in lane 1, cars and such in lane 2 and overtaking traffic in lane 3. Most drivers (though not all) stick to those rules.
Drivers coming up on your inside are most unusual, except in slow moving traffic, such as approaching junctions.
When I drove in the States I was flabbergasted at the lack of lane discipline. I was told, "Just drive in whatever lane you feel comfortable in".
YouTube videos are full of drivers being overtaken, at speed, on both sides, simultaneously. And the resulting accidents.
In the UK, if you have to "Undertake" as we call it, you do so very carefully, fully expecting someone to switch lanes without seeing you.
Regarding nearside mirror, my wife loves to gather her stuff and get ready to leave the car, just when I need my nearside mirror most. When trying to park between other vehicles!
And so back to thread!

Another reason why fully/semi autonomous cars are safer, with 2-3 rear facing cameras all on the outside of the vehicle, blinds spots are a thing of the past.

Love the set up on the new Tesla truck.
It will need a law change in the UK to replace mirrors with cameras.