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-   -   A shot with a mix... (http://www.fuelly.com/forums/f12/a-shot-with-a-mix-7020.html)

GasSavers_SD26 12-12-2007 07:33 AM

A shot with a mix...
 
Ok, first, a big thanks to ZugyNA...

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZugyNA (Post 85328)
Besides the airtabs...try this?

www.oilcrusher.5u.com

ListerEngine forum:

"I had a horse trader cowboy from west Okla., call me one night? He was not a farmer, nor had time to press seeds. He had 3 Duramax Chevys pulling horses all over the USA. He said the $3.00 fuel was killing his profits. ?What can I do he pleaded?. Well off the top of my head ,, I told him to go to the store and buy a cheap gallon of cooking oil.. Take it home and mix it with 2 gallons of gas and add that mixture to his 40 gallon pu tank.. Well he called me several days later, wanting to pay me for my help. He said his pu went from 12mpg to 18mpg on his first tank."

50% gains are hard to come by?

I had a email with Daniel who has the website that ZugyNA put up, and Daniel also posted the information about what he offered as an idea to the guy from Oklahoma.

Some background, I read through Daniel's site, and it was really interesting, but nothing particularly ground breaking. Until he started to talk about how the plastics industry has caused the removal of some important chemicals from fuels, both diesel and gas, over some period of time.

Now, I've raced motorcycles for a long time. I have a racing fuel company that I've worked with for most of that time too. They are family owned, and they are the oldest racing fuel company on earth with their history dating back into the late 30's, as I remember. http://www.powermist.com

Anyway, Daniel's discussion of how fuels have changed led me back to a period when Power Mist had an additive that could be added to a street gas, specifically, their recommendation was Amoco (now owned and known as BP) premium unleaded. However, buy the early, mid 90's they did say that because of refining and EPA mandates for the recipies of regular and the new at the time oxygenated fuels, there was no longer a big distinction between any fuel refiner's premium unleaded fuel.

Daniel responded to my email very quickly, and he agreed that the 2 gallons of vegetable oil with one gallon of unleaded gasoline added to a 40 gallon tank would be good even for winter time use.

I had a rear end seal replaced in the E350, and I needed fuel. So, I'm in. I mixed up two gallons of new vegetable oil with one gallon of regular unleaded gasoline, and I topped off my tank this AM.

Certainly, the winter cold here will affect my results with some issues of warm up times, my lack of use of the ol' bus even during the colder months. Doesn't get used unless I'm going to go ride on the ice or if I have to transport a whole motorcycle.

I drove around doing some things with the mix. I feel that the engine ran very smoothly, and, seat of the pants, I am very, very interested in my long term mileage results.

DarbyWalters 12-12-2007 10:21 AM

Well the vegetable oil will increase lubrication and the "gas" will act like a cetane booster (make the fuel easier to ignite)...so it might work, maybe.

I think you do have to worry about what kind of fuel pump you have when it comes to any changes...but let us know how it goes.

theclencher 12-12-2007 11:02 AM

See the following (abbreviated to stay in post limit ) service bulletin from 2005:

Info - Fuel and Oil Additives - Facts and Myths/Maximizing Fuel Economy #05-00-89-072 - (Oct 24, 2005)

2006 and Prior All GM Cars and Trucks

2003-2006 HUMMER H2

2006 HUMMER H3

2005-2006 Saab 9-7X
...

A Statement About Fuel Economy
...
The information below contains reasonable and prudent advice for your dealership and the consumer to get the most from every gallon of gas.

The information below is presented in two easy to understand sections:

• What Not To Do: Engine and Fuel Additives, Alternate Fuels, and "Miracle" Products

• What to Do: Maximizing Fuel Economy/Minimizing Costs

WHAT NOT TO DO: Engine and Fuel Additives, Alternate Fuels, and "Miracle" Products
Various unproven products to improve vehicle fuel economy have been reported ranging from magnets that align molecules to chemical combustion improvers.

Most products claiming to provide benefits are based on unsubstantiated claims. Those that do present "scientific" results generally either have too little supporting data to be conclusive, have not conducted experiments in a controlled fashion, or cannot be substantiated by anyone else but the product's manufacturer.

The U.S. Federal Trade Commission summarizes results for products tested by the federal government at www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/autos/gasave.htm. A review of the list shows that the majority did not work, and for those that showed some effect, the benefit was too small to be cost effective.


Harmful Ideas That May Damage Your Vehicle and Increase Emissions
One more recent poor idea to improve fuel economy that should not be attempted is to blend either kerosene or diesel fuel into gasoline. Why? Both kerosene and diesel fuel are distillate fuels meant for use in compression ignition engines, not spark ignition engines. They have very low octane and since they are heavier (higher density) than gasoline, they will cause heavy engine deposits and degradation of engine oil.

Notice: Never put Kerosene or Diesel Fuel in your Gasoline Engine vehicle. This may result in inconsistent performance and permanent damage to your vehicle that is not covered by your New Vehicle Warranty.

Chemicals that are normally used as solvents also should not be used. These include acetone, ketones, and methanol. These solvents can be incompatible with your vehicles rubber or sealing components, and may dissolve the vehicle’s paint finish. In the case of methanol, corrosion of metal parts in the fuel system also may occur.

Notice: Never use acetone, ketones, or methanol additives in your vehicle. Some of these solvents may damage or corrode your fuel system. They are also very damaging to the painted surfaces of the vehicle if spilled.
WHAT TO DO: Maximizing Fuel Economy/Minimizing Costs
The best fuel economy possible is the direct result of proper maintenance and good driving habits. Listed below are GM's recommendations to achieve the best mileage possible. The first group are things to consider for your vehicle, while the second are tips relating to your driving habits.
...
• Top Tier Fuels - Some fuel manufacturers provide gasoline advertised asTOP TIER DETERGENT GASOLINE (Chevron, Conoco, Phillips 66, Shell, Entec Stations, MFA , 76, Somerset Oil, QuikTrip, and Kwik Trip in the U.S. and Chevron in Canada. These fuels are preferable when and where available. They help to keep your fuel injectors and intake valves free of deposits. Clean engines provide optimal fuel economy, performance and reduced emissions. When Top Tier fuels are not available, consider a bottle of GM Fuel System treatment PLUS, P/N# 88861011 (in Canada, #88861012), at oil change time which will remove intake system and injector deposits. GM does not recommend any other fuel system cleaner.
Important: DO NOT confuse Top Tier Fuels with Higher Octane (Plus/Premium Grade Fuel) commonly sold at most all gas stations. Plus and Premium fuels are required in some high performance GM vehicles. However, they do not necessarily represent higher detergency present in TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline.

Important: For additional information regarding Top Tier fuels and availability, please refer to Corporate Bulletin Number 04-06-04-047E for U.S. or 05-06-04-022 for Canada.
...
? Copyright General Motors Corporation. All Rights Reserved

GasSavers_Bruce 12-12-2007 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SD26 (Post 85638)
go to the store and buy a cheap gallon of cooking oil.. Take it home and mix it with 2 gallons of gas and add that mixture to his 40 gallon pu tank

...

I mixed up two gallons of new vegetable oil with one gallon of regular unleaded gasoline, and I topped off my tank this AM.

Any reason for two gallons instead of one?

GasSavers_SD26 12-12-2007 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theclencher (Post 85644)
Notice: Never put Kerosene or Diesel Fuel in your Gasoline Engine vehicle.

I think I'm in the diesel forum. I am putting a small amount of gasoline in diesel fuel.

GasSavers_SD26 12-12-2007 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce (Post 85646)
Any reason for two gallons instead of one?

Was based on Daniel's experience.

During summer months, he was running 8 parts sunflower oil to one part gasoline.



Pump problems...

Well, my girl is going to be twelve model years old with 250k. Two years ago, I started putting used engine oil in my diesel tank quite regularly. I don't make a lot in oil changes, but I don't get anyplace to drop it off, and if I can recycle the oil as a fuel, which I've already paid for, I get a return.

There are many pluses and minuses to it, but, on my end, I don't generate any extra cost in storage or transportation. I haven't seen any additional wear, maintenance, smoke, etc. When I use it on the heavy side, she has ran smoother. Potentially, this appears to be related to the fact that used engine oil has more BTU's that diesel fuel. The extra BTU's clean up the nicest RPM of a little below 2000 RPM's, but it's a traditionally lumpy sound from the 7.3 Power Strokes. Some talk of an exhaust drone from 1800 to 2000 RPM's.

GasSavers_SD26 12-12-2007 12:51 PM

LOL! No, problem. You're just trying to help.

DarbyWalters 12-12-2007 01:43 PM

I think you mean 1 part sunflower oil to 8 parts diesel...or about 12%.

As for Pump Problems...it is usually the newer Bosch Style that are finiky. Old Mercedes can run theu about anything. I have a friend with an old Datsun 720 truck that runs used oil also...as long as he doesn't get too oil happy, it works fine.
For the newer "high pressure" type systems, you have to make sure the fuel you put in is of the best quality/very clean to protect the injectors and pumps.

GasSavers_SD26 12-12-2007 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarbyWalters (Post 85659)
I think you mean 1 part sunflower oil to 8 parts diesel...or about 12%.

Actually, no.

"The magic happens with the unleaded gas/veg oil and diesel. The mixture
reforms into a totally new fuel atom chain. With oxygen planted between the
carbon/hydrogen. Super fuel as one fuel chemist called it.

I always mix my veg fuel for what ever temps it will be ran in. That is to
say I can get away with allot less gas in the mix at 90f than I can at 20f.
The mixture I ran all summer was 8 parts oil to 1 part gas. This was fine
for #2 diesel blending up to 50%.. At this time and temps I am running 5
parts veg oil and 1 part gas. This I have found is safe down to 0f at 100%
and good to the same value mixing with diesel."

No, it doesn't change the atomic chain, but the opportunities of having pieces of each item, petrol diesel, actual vegetable oil, and gasoline, has a lot of opportunities available that current diesel doesn't have, nor does manufactured bio diesel. So he's found in his experience.

Similarly, when one builds a fuel, its a combination of items. It's not just the items, but often an order of the items as they are put together.

Specifically, in how I'm using this, think of the three total gallons (one gallon regular unleaded gasoline & two gallons vegetable oil) that I added to my 37 gallon tank as a supplement only at this time to the other 34 gallons.

Specifically, I'm doing a 2 & 1 mix to my tank based on his seeing that as safe to -37F. I don't think we'll see that this year, but certainly the potential is there.

For me, this is a test. I really recommend going to his site and just browsing a bit. Nothing special, but it has gotten my attention.


In the past before I put my used engine oil in my fuel, I had read how others were using used engine oil with gasoline, similarly as a supplement, to their diesel fuel.

joy123 03-09-2008 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SD26 (Post 85661)
Actually, no.

"The magic happens with the unleaded gas/veg oil and diesel. The mixture
reforms into a totally new fuel atom chain. With oxygen planted between the
carbon/hydrogen. Super fuel as one fuel chemist called it.

I always mix my veg fuel for what ever temps it will be ran in. That is to
say I can get away with allot less gas in the mix at 90f than I can at 20f.
The mixture I ran all summer was 8 parts oil to 1 part gas. This was fine
for #2 diesel blending up to 50%.. At this time and temps I am running 5
parts veg oil and 1 part gas. This I have found is safe down to 0f at 100%
and good to the same value mixing with diesel."

No, it doesn't change the atomic chain, but the opportunities of having pieces of each item, petrol diesel, actual vegetable oil, and gasoline, has a lot of opportunities available that current diesel doesn't have, nor does manufactured bio diesel. So he's found in his experience.

Similarly, when one builds a fuel, its a combination of items. It's not just the items, but often an order of the items as they are put together.

Specifically, in how I'm using this, think of the three total gallons (one gallon regular unleaded gasoline & two gallons vegetable oil) that I added to my 37 gallon tank as a supplement only at this time to the other 34 gallons.

Specifically, I'm doing a 2 & 1 mix to my tank based on his seeing that as safe to -37F. I don't think we'll see that this year, but certainly the potential is there.

For me, this is a test. I really recommend going to his site and just browsing a bit. Nothing special, but it has gotten my attention.


In the past before I put my used engine oil in my fuel, I had read how others were using used engine oil with gasoline, similarly as a supplement, to their diesel fuel.

can u tell us what happend when u used to use used engine oil? and is there any possibility to harm ur engine by using veg oil?

GasSavers_SD26 03-09-2008 01:26 PM

I've been using used engine oil for a couple years...about 20,000 miles easy. I'd like a better filtration program from myself, but that's a matter of time an money. Regardless, it hasn't had me changing the fuel filter more, and I have no performance issues. The bus had 180k on it when I bought it, so it has wear on it as it is. Still, no problems.

I don't see why vegetable oil would harm anything. Rudolph diesel orginally used vegetable oil on his new engine, so...

I've started "spiking" my diesel with the new vegetable oil and a little gasoline since December. Not a lot of miles, but it has been very, very cold. No problems with starting or operation even at temperatures from -10F to 10F.

Next month, I start a lot of traveling. So, I'll know a little more then maybe about vegetable oil and gasoline.

Still looking for a source for cold pressed vegetable oils at a reasonable cost.

GasSavers_SD26 03-09-2008 01:26 PM

And with diesel prices continuing to rise, used engine oil is becoming more and more valuable to me.

GasSavers_Dust 03-09-2008 07:21 PM

You guys are talking about blending

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/foru...m/f/9751014871

http://www.frybrid.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=4

and some interesting info for the engineer types

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread...ighlight=water

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarbyWalters (Post 85643)
Well the vegetable oil will increase lubrication and the "gas" will act like a cetane booster (make the fuel easier to ignite)...so it might work, maybe.

I think you are confusing cetane with octane. They are kinda opposite. If you have access to old gas, like year old, from boat yards or similar, then it wouldn’t be a problem, but you risk pre-ignition if you have too much octane in your diesel. Some who work in airfields get the drained jet2, and oil/lube people use the leftovers filtered into their tanks.

GasSavers_Dust 03-09-2008 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joy123 (Post 93149)
can u tell us what happend when u used to use used engine oil? and is there any possibility to harm ur engine by using veg oil?

You can clog your nozzles, and you can polymerize your oil if the vegetable oil gets into your engine oil. People who blend recommend cutting your OCI down below 5000 miles. if you are a 3000 miler, I don't know how well it would affect you. some have also noticed their oil level increasing when burning engine oil, because it gets past the rings and into the sump.

Lug_Nut 03-10-2008 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SD26 (Post 93153)
Rudolph diesel orginally used vegetable oil on his new engine, so...

No, He originally used coal dust. Didn't work as well as he wanted. Maybe you'll have better success than he did if you go ALL the way back to the original intent. I mean, if the original fuel is better, veg oil in your view, why not go all the way back to the original original fuel?
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dust
but you risk pre-ignition if you have too much octane in your diesel.

Can't happen. Compression ignition DEPENDS on enough compressive heat being available to spontaneously ignite the fuel, it's just that there isn't any fuel available as the air alone is being compressed. Fuel is injected at roughly TDC, not before.

GasSavers_SD26 03-10-2008 06:08 AM

Right, Rudolph's machine didn't work on the dust. I guess that wasn't successful. Does that make it an engine?

I have no intention of using all vegetable oil. No reason. Additionally, the expense is high. The thread should make that understandable.

If you have something positive to add, I'd appreciate it.

BumblingB 03-10-2008 05:38 PM

Dust, you got it. Blending. Once it gets a TRUE summertime (HOT) I am going to start putting WVO in my tank as I am sitting on a nice surplus of it. I run so many miles a day it won't be sitting in there long anyway. For starters I am only going to add about 2 gallons per my 13 gallon tank (Jetta).

I thought about getting ahold of some RUG (Raw Unused Gas) from some of the boat places around here. From my research (but no testing yet) is too bad to be used anymore any but has a higher cetane rating than standard diesel. Of course this will be added small amounts too, from what I've read it seems most use it as a thinner for their WVO.

GasSavers_Dust 03-11-2008 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wazabi Owner (Post 93246)
Dust, you got it. Blending.

And here is a link to old gasoline discussion.

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/foru...1/m/5101050991

Lug_Nut 03-12-2008 04:26 AM

Point, Counterpoint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SD26 (Post 85638)
... he started to talk about how the plastics industry has caused the removal of some important chemicals from fuels, both diesel and gas, over some period of time.

Thermoplastic compounds are predominantly from natural gas, not from the liquid portion used for fuels. I don't doubt there will be some diversion of the vaporous fossil hydrocarbon compounds if and when Shell's 'gas-to-liquid' petrodiesel production becomes economically profitable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SD26 (Post 85638)
... Anyway, Daniel's discussion of how fuels have changed led me back to a period when Power Mist had an additive that could be added to a street gas, specifically, their recommendation was Amoco (now owned and known as BP) premium unleaded. However, buy the early, mid 90's they did say that because of refining and EPA mandates for the recipies of regular and the new at the time oxygenated fuels, there was no longer a big distinction between any fuel refiner's premium unleaded fuel.

Daniel responded to my email very quickly, and he agreed that the 2 gallons of vegetable oil with one gallon of unleaded gasoline added to a 40 gallon tank would be good even for winter time use.

What happened? You were going on about an additive for gasoline and then jumped to home concocted additive for diesel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SD26 (Post 85638)
... Right, Rudolph's machine didn't work on the dust. I guess that wasn't successful. Does that make it an engine?

It did 'work' on dust, just not as reliably as the spark ignited engines then available. The big problem he has was in metering the dust which tended to clump. When the dust fed in OK, the engine did work, but the consistency issue meant that his engine was no improvement. Changing to a plant oil provided better consistency in fuel delivery and eliminated that problem.
And my comment about going back to the original fuel wasn't directed at your original post, but at this later one:
Quote:

I don't see why vegetable oil would harm anything. Rudolph diesel orginally used vegetable oil on his new engine, so...
Quote:

Originally Posted by SD26 (Post 85638)
... If you have something positive to add, I'd appreciate it.

OK, I positively hope you have better success in repeating the same experiment than others have had.
At 4.7% veg oil and 2.3% gasoline it'll be some time before your results become statistically significant. Here's hoping it lasts long enough that you can provide the verifiable data.

Wazabi Owner, RUG is more commonly Regular octane, Unleaded Gasoline, but I like your twist on the acronym. And best of success to you, too.

GasSavers_SD26 03-12-2008 05:39 AM

Actually, this is the diesel section. The origin of the NVO stuff was for my diesel as the volume that I consume fuel is a big part of my business overhead.

Have done it with gasoline too, but the original goal is diesel.

BumblingB 03-12-2008 12:02 PM

Ahh, touche. (hey, did I use that right as it's not really an argument :D ) I knew that but it slipped my mind, plus I prefer the Raw instead as people seem to understand it better. I have heard it both ways so it really wasn't my twist. :o I guess I can take the credit. Did I tell you about that time I invented the internet..............

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lug_Nut (Post 93363)
Wazabi Owner, RUG is more commonly Regular octane, Unleaded Gasoline, but I like your twist on the acronym. And best of success to you, too.


Lug_Nut 03-13-2008 04:30 AM

It was the incongruous mental image of "unused gas" that grabbed my attention.


Used firecrackers for sale, cheap!

omgwtfbyobbq 03-13-2008 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarbyWalters (Post 85659)
As for Pump Problems...it is usually the newer Bosch Style that are finiky. Old Mercedes can run theu about anything. I have a friend with an old Datsun 720 truck that runs used oil also...as long as he doesn't get too oil happy, it works fine.

With VE pumps timing depends on internal pressure, which depends on viscosity. :thumbup: According to my Bentley up to 5% gasoline is o.k. but I really wouldn't push my luck. Other things to increase the viscosity of the fuel such as paraffin wax and non-detergent motor oil can also help. Ideally though, the best thing to do is just adjust the internal ump pressure to what it should be running on whatever fuel ya happen to be running on. That being said, veggie oil doesn't spray very well out of the injectors, so I would keep an eye on 'em.

BumblingB 03-13-2008 05:20 PM

I've normally known it as "bad gas" but if I went around asking people if they had bad gas I'd probably get my butt kicked. :p "Old gas" works too I suppose.

Regular octane Unleaded Gasoline doesn't seem to scream to me that it isn't bad unusable gas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lug_Nut (Post 93472)
It was the incongruous mental image of "unused gas" that grabbed my attention.


Used firecrackers for sale, cheap!



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