My HHO Generator
 

Hey everyone, I finally finished my HHO Generator (mostly) I'm missing a few pieces but otherwise entirely finished. I'm getting pretty good results, just need to make a few adjustments. Any suggestions are, as always, greatly appreciated! The link to my video run through is below. Thanks for viewing!


HHO Generator Walk Through

-Nate

* might try baking soda or NaOH with distilled water? Use a bit less than what is recommended for the smackbooster? salt is not good to use.

* make sure you seal ALL connxs very well...the gas gets away easily

* use a bubbler

* good idea to use an ammeter in the circuit...along with a remote temp probe on the cell...for testing best to start low in the 5-6 amp cold range? Most multimeters can handle up to 10 amps.

* if you can set up a connx to the intake and pull the gas with some regulated vacuum you will lose less of it....if you can find a port on the air cleaner side of your throttle valve and right above it...that would be ideal. Will need a one way valve inlet into the cell...don't want to pull a vacuum on the cell.

* be safe

Wow that looks very simple ( I remember doing that experiment in elementary school with a battery and a wire in a bottle of water).

I got a question, what is the purpose of the filter? Shouldn't the hydrogen be relatively clean Out of the water?

And of course, what gains did you see :)

Two reason for the filter. The first reason is because there are some impurities that follow with the HHO. Secondly, sometimes when the generator is running too long and the water gets too hot it bubbles into the tube, the filter keeps this run off from getting in the main tube. In addition it cools it down a bit (and everyone I've seen recommends one ;)

I have yet to test it because of a 30 cent end cap I broke GRRRR!!! But I should have that part shortly and will update then.

THANKS FOR VIEWING!!!

-Nate

Do you have a PWM circuit? I heard circuits that chop the electricity into MHz does wonders.

I hate to show my ineptness but I don't understand any of what you just said, could you elaborate? Thanks for the reply though!

PWM = Pulse Width Modulation.

I think the idea is that gas production capacity is somewhat limited by the speed the bubbles rise off the plates, so applying power during the times that the gas cannot form just wastes power and puts heat in the cell... ergo chopping the power into intervals long enough to produce a bubble and chopping it off again to give it time to float off the plate gives some efficiency savings.... also there's some theories about cell resonance snowballing the output, and some suggestion that the voltage and current peaks at the edge of the square wave can approach extremely high values which creates effects not otherwise observed in steady state operation.

pwm part two
 

Not meaning to hijack the thread however I have a question near your HHO generator.
" Has anyone EVER proved that using pulsed waveforms significantly increased HOH production for the same or less power input than straight DC. Does anyone share this information. Who can I connect with ? "
I was also wondering if you could run a smaller generator feeding into the main generator and using the small generator to produce gas to bubble up in the big generator and knock the main gen's gasses off the plates?

Ok, I get what you're saying. Correct me if I'm wrong, bu here's something that still makes me doubt this a bit. So the amount of surface area effects the resistance in the water. More surface area = less resistance = more power being drawn. If bubbles cover the plates then there will be less surface area, therefore more resistance and less power be drawn.

I'm not going to pretend I know entirely what's going on, but that was my understanding....

I experimented with PWM and got less production. The idea of using the bubbles to knock other bubbles off has merit, but I had excellent results by changing the electrode shape.

One thing that needs to be addressed is the warmer solution rises to the top, so that is where the most activity is. You don't have to build a generator to try this. A coffee mug will suffice with electrodes clamped to the sides and attached to a 12 volt battery. Be careful not to let the electrodes touch, and make sure electrolyte does not get in your eyes.

Yea supposedly the PWM creates brown's gas while straight regular electrolysis makes H2 + O2. Browns Grass Has single H (monatomic) vs the H2 Hydrogen gas (Diatomic).

I think i got that right correct me if im wrong lol. But One form explodes while the other implodes. One has very fine bubles while the other has bigger ones.

I had bad luck with straight electrolysis because I had a jar of red/brown mud after a week. PWM is supposed to cut that down to 6 months.

Suggestions on how to do PWM cheapest and most effectively?

Thanks
-Nate

I tried building my own from this site
https://electronic-light.com/advan.html

Somehow I messed up & the guy is looking it over for me.

ProtonXX -

Hmmmmmmmmm. I actually have a variable DC Motor Controller Kit from Ramsey Electronics :

MSC1C - DC Motor Speed Control Kit - $34.95
https://www.ramseyelectronics.com/cgi...tion&key=MSC1C
https://www.ramseyelectronics.com/images/hk/msc1-W.gif
I wonder if this would work for me. I have been thinking lately that I *want* 10 Amps or less. Curiouser and curiouser ....

CarloSW2

Yeah that PMW motor controller looks like it should work just watch out for the peak current flow not the average since the pass transistor is going to pop if too much current flows through it. I just think however that lower resistance and lower voltage would be better since it is the current (the flow of electrons) that separates the water into H and O and having higher voltage than the few volts it takes just makes more heat. Another way to use 12 volts directly is to setup 3 or 4 cells in series in separate containers dividing the voltage between them all.

I don't know about the mon-atomic Hydrogen - but taller plates in a taller container would produce more gas and electrolite flow vertically helping to knock off the gas bubbles as they rise to the top and may end up producing quite a circulating flow knocking all the bubbles loose from top to bottom.

Thought I'd run through some numbers...

Recorded MPGs
Low- 19.7
High- 22.3
Average- 21

A few days ago my gas light went on and I reset my trip-meter. 20 miles later I filled up:

$19.17 @ $3.499/gal = 5.4787082 gals

My trip-meter was @ 159.8 when my gas light went off.

159.8M / 5.4787082 gals = 29.17 MPG

Unless I've figured incorrectly that leaves me with a MPG gain of over 8 MPG over my previous average.

More interesting is that I've only had my HHO Generator running for the past 50 or so miles.

I'll be able to do much more defined tests as soon as I get some more gas $$, but as of now, I'm pretty impressed.


**Other Calculations
50 miles with HHO generator
159.8 - 50 = 109.8 miles without HHO.

109.8 M @ 21MPG (avg without HHO) = 5.22857143 Gal

5.4787082 gal put in initially
5.4787082 - 5.22857143 = 0.25013677 gals while running HHO

50 miles running HHO with 0.25013677 Gals = 199.890644 MPG (obviously there must be some margin error in this math, but the point is that there's the potential for a GREAT increase.)

Try to use full tank mpg readings? Better yet a 3 tank avg removes the short fill inaccuracies.

Sounds like a good start though. :thumbup: Just hope your nasty old ECU doesn't catch on to what you are doing. :cool:

lol Yes, I realize that's the best way to do it, but my car hasn't had a full tank of gas for months hahaha. sucks being in high school.

nsrossman, have you experimented with different cell polarities? Right now you've got 6 cells, + - +- +- . How do you think + - - - - + Would do? Or even 7 cells with + - - + - - + ?

Also, how did you get those plates in the + - + - + - configuration? In the video you said that they are spaced apart with rubber grommets, so how do you make the connections to the inner plates?

Looking good, keep it up!

No board yet but In the mean time I decided to get some KOH (Potasium Hydroxide).

Was looking at the smack cell videos & he claimed his cells went 2 months w/o cleaning with distilled water & KOH, Only a slight gold hue from impurities from building he claims.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oh0x-...eature=related
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPGAK...eature=related

I used salt + water in my joe cell & also straight tap water. Also did +-+- Cell alignment with straight 12v. I had brown goop & melted fuses in a week :(.

MoHHo- I hadn't previously thought about other configurations, but I'm sure the change would be simple enough. Right now I have two holes in each plate, one 1/2" and one 3/8". The rod is also 3/8" so each plate connects on that side. The other side is insulated with some homemade spacers so that the inner dimension is also 3/8". Then I switch the direction of each plate so that the side which is connected to the rod is different every other plate.

I've got another problem for everyone out there in the forum world....

I've measured my resistance and, using distilled water and about 1/4tsp of salt, gotten it to a little over.6

12V/.6+ ohms = 20amps (or a bit below)

I set a block (that's what we've always called it in my area- basically a fuse but instead of popping it heats up, stops the current then allows it again later) this should break the connection @ 20amps. The first 5 minutes of running are fine, then it jumps over 20 amps and stays there most of the time.

I've tried lowering the salt even more so that its at about .8 resistance (thinking maybe the increased water temp has allowed for more current) but then I don't get nearly the productivity I previously did.

I'm up against a wall here guys and its really bugging me because I've spent so much time on my rig and built it to be so durable. (I'm figuring about $300 and 50 hrs worth of work have gone into this) I'm so close its just working out the bugs!!

Any help would be GREATLY APPRECIATED!!!
-Nate

I don't have an answer to your question, but I've got a quick question for you. Is your fuse inline with your positive or your negative lead?

Temperature can supply part of the energy necessary for the electrolysis, something like 270ish joules required per mole total, and 40ish is supplied by normal ambient temperatures... so go over ambient and you get more help.

But you're thinking backwards on the resistance thing, resistance is current limiting in this instance, so increasing resistance will mean less current = less power = less heat.

If you are inputting 12V...you should try setting the plates up as....

+ I I I -

...where the middle plates are neutral and you might see 3 V between plates.

This increases the cell efficiency and puts more of the current to work making gas rather than heat.

Might space the plates a little closer than 1/8th"?

But you will have some current bleed around.

Easiest would be to use baking soda...using just enough to have it draw maybe 6-8 amps cold and test it from there.


You have an ideal enclosure to eventually put a set of smackbooster plates in there...where you'd EXACTLY duplicate his most recent plate setup and use NaOH.

Need to monitor the cell temps and the amperage.

You could try a different modulator to vary the frequency in order to keep the amps down. The "special priced" one on www.pwmpower.com has gotten me intrigued enough to purchase one. I'm going to see if I can get mine up and running within a month or so. If you wanna wait that long, I'll have some info for everyone, but I think these PWMs with gating and freq adjustments are pretty applicable to keeping your amperage where you want it. As far as the money goes...maybe you should apply for a grant...don't ask me how, but someone hasta wanna give kids like us a grant, right? ...probably not...sigh...

Its funny you should mention the boosters, as I just recently found his page (even though I've been researching for months.) Smack basically has the exact same set up I do, only my plates are made out of a higher quality stainless. Recently I've ordered and received some sodium hydroxide (NaOH.) I thought the problem was that the salt was breaking down the plates, making the water they're in more electrolytic. However, I've filled my container with distilled water, then added small amounts (as small as 1/4 tsp) of NaOH, all of which show a resistance above my desired about, but my 40 amp fuse ALWAYS pops after about 5 mins.

Short Info-
about 1 liter distilled water
1/4 tsp NaOH
same setup mentioned earlier

Resistance- 1.2 ohms
Voltage- 12V

Calculated Draw= 10 amps

40 amp fuse breaks after 5 mins!!!!

I considered faulty wiring, fuses, and have narrowed it to either faulty equipment (voltage/resistance tester) or some other series of events I'm unaware of?

Readings seem about right, fuse breaks, and its not the wiring....IDK!!!!

Please help!

-Nate

It is not possible to calculate the current by standard resistance measurements. HHO cells act sort of like capacitors. A special AC resistance measuring setup is used in electrolysis.

You might invest in a cheap digital multimeter. I have seen them from $7 to $14 (Walmart). I got one from Ace harware for $9.95. It has a 10 amp scale, but will read to 19.9 amps if you do it for a short time. I believe you will see the current rise higher as the cell is operated.

Hang in there. It sounds like you are on the right track. :)

I'd say you have a heat related SHORT...plates heat up...move...you get a short?

Depends on the start temp...but I get a rise in amps of maybe 50% or so after warm up.

I'd just measure amp draw and cell temps and let it go at that.


I've got 2 of these..both still work...paid $3-4...

https://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=92020


This works too...I paid $6...

https://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=93983


And maybe gas output? :D This is pretty high tech though...requires a 5 G bucket and a small clear bottle that will fit in it sideways. :eek: Not razzing you...just the people who never measure gas output. :rolleyes:

I remembered another cause of fuse problems I had on my gen. It was blowing 20 amp fuses at 8 amps. Turned out it was a faulty fuse holder. The problem went away after I replaced it. The new holder did not get hot. dissecting the old one told me nothing, but had a poor connection somehow.

On the subject of fuse holders, I lost power to my electric fan install. Seems the plastic in-line holders get soft. Next time around I will use the more modern fuses with spade terminals.

so thought....i think i might put in circuit breakers rather then fuses when i do my full install in my car... thoughts?

First post, but I saw this thread and am planning on building an HHO cell after a vacation. I have seen on some sites various build methods, but have one question for the OP- Have you tried lowering the voltage to say 1.2v? Anything lower isn't going to create the reaction, but having such low voltage should reduce the energy needed for the reaction, and potentially reduce the amperage needed at 12v. Someone let me know if I am wrong, it's late and I have a head cold cold, but shouldn't 12v@10amps give you 1.2v@100amps resistance being equal? From what I have studied the voltage isn't the answer, it's the amperage draw. Higher amps means more generation, but with less voltage it will be less taxing on the electrical system. At the same time, using a PWM along with dropping the voltage might be an interesting test. If I am wrong, please let me know and let me know where I am wrong. I am very interested in this subject and have seen some insightful posts and would love to be fossil fuel free by the years end if at all possible!

I would appreciate your assistance. I had been reading about this for a while when a thread as a Subaru Forester forum started to address this technology. The latest guy to reply is being pretty condescending. In my limited knowledge I have read about exactly the method of lowering voltage but boosting amperage but I am not technically qualified to fully appreciate all that is involved or to be able to refute this guy's textbook arguments. Your assistance would therefore be appreciated.

Here is the post in question.

As much as I find his tone condescending I must hear what he is saying. The guy refers to the alternator having a built-in limitation, which stabilizes the energy output at about 12v. What if the alternator were altered so that that it generates whatever the engine rotation produces, without limitation or with a higher ceiling than before (i.e., remove the regulator)? I mean higher engine output would equal higher energy production and the drag of the alternator on the engine remains about constant, right? If that holds true, you could then have the alternator connect directly to the HHO generator and then to an external regulator that feeds and protects everything else in the car, as usual.(?) In theory, at least, based on what little I know it seems that with that setup when engine revs higher, demanding more fuel, the HHO generator follows suit and ups the production without disturbing the other components.

Am I thinking/talking nonsense here?

correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe in most cars the alternator is disengagd when the battery's charge reaches a certain point, otherwise the energy is wasted. Removing the regulator is really just turning your car into a generator for your HHO system?

Personally my biggest concern is how to produce the best results, regardless of the power needs (obviously they should be minized eventually, but at worst if I make a system that draws too much power but works well I'll add a seperate battery circuit that I'd charge from home.)

Just a few thoughts
 

I saw your video and I think you are off to a good start. A couple of thoughts though, Hydrogen is very explosive, you might want to think about moving the generator out of the interior or trunk and into the engine compartment were there is more air movement to disipate any gas that might leak and I would definately recomment that you not have any other electrical devices near it that could provide a loose spark. It would also shorten up your delivery hose. Good luck!

HHO generator companies say you'll increase gas mileage 10-45%. If this were true then you'd be use A LOT of hydrogen, a lot more than you could produce from an HHO generator. Even if you optimistically estimate that you can get 2 times the miles out of a kilo of hydrogen than you could out of gas, and then assume that the hydrogen is only accounting for 20% increase (lower than the average estimate from HHO companies) in your fuel mileage, so we'll say conservatively that you're getting an additional 5 miles from the hydrogen per gallon of gas consumed...Let's assume a vehicle that gets 25mpg. That 5 miles, once again "conservatively" would use 1/13th of a kilo of hydrogen. If you were to drive 25 miles round trip in a commute then you would need 1/13th a kilo of hydrogen to increase mileage 20%. A 1/13 kilo = 0.08 kilos. There is about 0.42 kilos in a gallon of water. So a quart would offer you about one-and-a-quarter "commutes" and that is if you could use every drop of water in the HHO generator (given a 1 qt. capacity generator)...which you can't. I don't have an HHO but I'm assuming that the electrodes need to stay covered with water to work, so if you have a 1 qt. HHO then the usable amount of water is well less than a pint, which would only allow you that 20% increase in mileage for about 10-15 miles before you have to fill up the water tank again. If you question my numbers and findings, then pick up a chemistry book, do some research, and find out for yourself. How often do you have to refill a HHO? If you have to fill it everyday, how much water do you add? Using my "optimistic" numbers, see how much mileage you could theoretically get from the hydrogen you produced. Once again you can only get .42 kilos or .92 pounds of hydrogen from a whole gallon of water.

Here is the kicker argument: The perpetual motion machine. If indeed you are getting more energy from the hydrogen you produced from the HHO generator than you put into it, you have to assume that most engineers/physicist/chemist are wrong when they say that it takes about as much energy to get the hydrogen as you get out of it when you use/burn it. Let's assume they are wrong and that all these scam artists are right. SO then we are getting more energy out of the hydrogen than it takes to get it. If this is true then why not put a bigger alternator on our engines, fill a tank in the trunk with water, and increase our mileage by 80%!! These scam artists says we get more energy out of the hydrogen than we're putting into it, so this must work!

If anyone has the science or absolute proof that this could work, then PLEASE tell me. I would love to win a nobel prize and put a 20 gallon HHO in the back of every American's car. Our dependence on foreign oil would all but go away. This is great!!

Disregard the sarcasm if you can. And please provide alternative "numbers" and "scientific proof" if you can. Ultimately, I'm just trying to save you money from a scam that simply is as impossible as a perpetual motion engine.

i don't know "JACK" about chemistry nor do i wish to because it would hurt my head. my question to you is this, "what about all of the people out there on the internet that make posts regarding increased MPG?" i really don't think they're all crack smokers.

What about the people that experienced no or negligible gains, and why has no reputable company/firm publicized the same results? If this is so great and real, then CNN would have done a story and Walmart would sell the kits.

The amount of "bubbles" formed by an HHO generator (really an H2+O2) generator)is extremely minimal compared to the volume of air flowing through the intake. There is NO scientific basis for this. I know I know, "but there are all these people getting great results". Firstly, these HHO generators do not produce enough "fuel" to increase mileage based on H2 burning by itself. If it is really true that it's not the fuel aspect of HHO, but that HHO simply helps the engine burn the gasoline more efficiently, then how does it work? How?

Of all these wonderful scam sites selling HHO (H2+O2) generators, not one of them explains the science. Many even promote IRS tax refunds that are NOT viable, and some promote false stories like "South Korea mandates all trucks to use HHO generators". The falsities, lies, and lack of scientific knowledge associated with HHO generators just supports the fact that it's all a scam. I suppose many people still believe in pyramid schemes also...but no, no, they're not a scam!

doug and Rower
 

Hey there doug2168 and Rower,

First of all, doug, the ignorance is bliss aproach will just get you in a whole lot of trouble and expence. If you are not going to take the time and energy to learn about what you want to do to your car, you had better wait until a major manufacturer develops a system that is idiot proof for any car. Every engine in every different car (even from the same company) is different. The same basic longblock can be built and tuned for each different aplication. Thus, one system and/or combination of components and settings will work well for one car and engine and not necessarily for any other. Each year/make/model would need its own combination of components and settings. You or your mechanic would need to tune your car and the system that you choose and had better know what you are doing.

Now Rower, lighten up!. No one is trying to run on h2 alone. Gasoline engines waist a lot energy in the form of unburnt fuel and fuel that is burnt too late or in the exhaust system. The idea is to use h2 to help burn more, or better yet, all of the gasoline fuel so that better efficiency is achieved. The theory is sound. H2, with its lower burn temp and faster and more powerful burn, could help spread the ignition flame in the cumbustion chamber faster so that more gasoline is ignited and used for more power and better efficiency. What these people, and soon myself, are trying to do is find a way to do it that is cost effective and safe. That no major company has tried this is no supprise. Between the liabillity for damages or injuries that could be cause by a mis-hap and the vast number of different engines out there, I would not expect anyone with a lot of money to lose to want to risk it promoting a system at this time. There are just still too many un-answered questions. Sure, there are a lot of hucksters selling snake oil out there. People like myself will need to spend a lot of time doing research and reading about what others are doing and have done before puchasing or building a system and then installing it safely. Ultimately, it may very well be that no one ever comes up with a single system that works universaly on any car. But a lot of people might find ways to get their individual cars to run better. If enough people do find success, then maybe a larger company might get involved. Maybe a few fools will lose a bit of money, but, maybe we might find a way to save a lot of people a lot of money on gas and help out the environment at the same time. Instead of dragging things down, get involved. Do your own research on the how and why. While I am interested in this idea, I do not think all the questions have been answered. I am at the point where I will make a generator and start to test for myself how to get the best production. Then it's on to solve demand/production qestions.

Wish me well and good luck to both of you!