Run you car with water
I'm interested in using water/HHO gas technology. I sent an e-mail to "runyourcarwithwater.com" and asked someone to contact me directly. Needles to say, it's been 3 days and I haven't heard from them. I'm leery of being scammed. Can anyone answer a few questions for me?
1. What kind of material costs can I expect to lay out after receiving the instructions? 2. How difficult are the instructions to follow? 3. Does that particular company offer any tech support? |
This is a scam. In order to make hydrogen, you have to split water. This takes more energy than it releases.
|
Wrong Sludgy.
People are doing it all over the world. I am doing it. I have friends that do it too. It works, but different people get different results. Depends on too many variables to list. Like the catalyst you are using, the Stainless Steel you are using, the how many Amps you are pulling. Are you using 1,2, 3 or more hydrogen cells to make your hydrogen (Browns Gas). Are you running the gas to one intake port on your manifold or two? Are you using a MAP sensor enhancer? What other things are you doing to help your mileage. Are you using extenders for your O2 sensors as they give a falso O2 reading to your ECU when you use HHO technology's to split water and feed it to your engine, thus, you need to trick your O2 sensors to not send this info back to the ECU or you will get worse mileage. I would suggest googling "hydrogen powered cars" or "water powered cars, or "youtube"-ing it to see the many videos of people who are doing it successfully. Google or you-tube "Stan Meyers", the master inventor or water for fuel technology. He is one of many. Why was Stan murdered recently? Could it possibly be that he, like many other water for fuel inventors, were seen as a threat to Big Oil concerns. Well, when you invent a car that runs totally on water and nothing else, I guess you need to look over your should at all times, wouldn't you agree? Splitting water is not new. Its been around for many, many years. The patent is something like 90 years old. YOU CAN IMPROVE your MPG with supplementing Browns Gas or H-H-O into your intake maniford. You will increase you mileage anywhere from 10 to 70 % from a combination of methods. Samy: I suggest you can start with Ozzie Newsom's site "water4gas.com" That's what I have done. HHO experimentors meet at some park in LA every Saturday at 1200 noon to show off their latest creations. Directon are on the website. Don't take my word for it. Look for yourself. Don't believe some naysayer who says "it takes more enery than it releases". That kind of logic is from someone who hasn't looked inot the science behind it and hasn't tried it. He is just repeating what Big Oil wants you to believe. I have been to 2 gatherings in LA so far and met Ozzie. I bought and down-loaded his ebook with easy to follow directions on how to build a simple HHO generator. I have built it. It works. Based on other designs I have seen from other experimentors, I am now trying to replicate their projects and designs. Its fun, its work, its a lot of driving around testing what you have done, and chasing around town or the internet for the material you need...but in the end, with $5.00 per gallon gas just around the corner here is south Florida...its worth it to me. If anyone isinterested in meeting Saturdays in south Florida, like they do in LA, to get the word out, please let me know. I have tried to get some interest on another thread but no luck so far. I am trying to get a group interested to share ideas and experiments and designs. Together we CAN and WILL beat the oil company crooks and the RAG Heads in the desert...and the crooked polititians who got us into this mess. |
hvyironfr8dog: Sorry, I've yet to see one so called water powered car that actually worked.
I've heard of "HHO" injection on a car with the intention of improving the combustion itself, thus boosting efficiency. Haven't seen it in person, but I know a local tinkerer who's giving it a shot. We'll see if it works even better than his methanol/water injection. :) But splitting water to produce energy, without using energy to split the water? Perpetual motion 100%. |
It is pointless trying to reason with people determined to deceive themselves.
They can make themselves believe ANYTHING. Run your car with water?? OK, So all you gotta do is believe in it. That was easy --- LOL!!!!!!! Belief - a state of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in something or someone. Truth - a known fact. Just gimme some truth. |
My take on how it should work...
Okay, here's what actually happens on the road... https://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_110216/article.html and refer to pretty picture... https://us1.webpublications.com.au/st...110216_9mg.jpg Now, I'm picking favorable conditions here, to show how it can work, any idiot can pick conditions where it won't (Mythbusters probably qualifies here) Now load is scaled in BMEP, max is 150. Imagine a vehicle cruising at 20% load on the highway, that would be 30 on the side of the graph, using about 20HP to keep moving at 3000 rpm 60mph, that puts us in the magenta region at a BSFC of about .65 lb/bhp-hr, a gallon of gas weighs about 6.5lb, so our car is getting .65x20HP=13lb/hr, dead on 30mpg. Now we've got a decent sized alternator in the thing 160 Amp, sounds a little large, but that size is on many light trucks now and is optional on vehicles like the Dodge Magnum, dB draggers are putting 200+ amp units in. Using this size because it makes the numbers convenient, it gives us about 2250W, which is around an even 3HP, which at 60% efficiency makes for a 5HP load on the engine, when fully loaded, so we fully load it..... So we've increased load by 5HP, so now we're using .65x25HP=16.25lb/hr = 24mpg right? WRONG No, we're going back to our graph... we had to crack the throttle a little more to hold 60mph, so we've reduced pumping loss... so reading across from our new 25% load, 37.5 on the left, ye gods! now we're using about .55lb/bhp-hr so .55x25HP=13.75lbhr, 28.4mpg... So we're effectively getting 2250W of useable electrical power at a "cost" of only .75lb of gasoline an hour... So, the electrolysis process for H2 is about 80% efficient in terms of energy input, however, ~20% of the energy comes from environmental heat, usually presumed to be at a temperature of 20-25*C.... but our electrolysis tank is sitting in a toasty warm engine bay, soaking up a proportion of that 75% of the wasted energy in the gasoline that doesn't get to the road. If the electrolyte temperature gets up to about 40-50C from heat soak, we can expect about 40% of the energy of the process to come from heat, electricity needs only to supply the remaining 60%. So we need to supply 1.25x the energy we get out of the hydrogen, to overcome the 20% efficiency loss, but since 40% is supplied by heat, we only need 75% of the energy to come from the alternator... so 2250W of electrical energy, makes 3000W worth of hydrogen... So, the energy before losses in that extra .75lb of gas we're burning is about 3800Watt-hours.... we see from the graphs here https://www.transportation.anl.gov/tr...en_engine.html that 50% efficiency is achieved by pure hydrogen in conversion to mechanical energy in an IC motor, where it's limiting factor is the mechanical limits of IC engine design, in diluted quantities, it is reasonable to expect it to exceed 50% efficiency, perhaps approaching 80% or more. So at best case efficiency for the gasoline of 25%, and at this point on the graph (3000 rpm 25% load) we're only seeing 20% efficiency, that 3800Wh of gasoline is only worth 950 Wh at the wheels, whereas our 3000Wh of hydrogen would be worth 1500Wh at the wheels, this is best case for gasoline, medium case for H2, therefore our H2 is worth the equivalent of 1.2lb of gasoline... 13.75-1.2=12.55lb/hr consumption, our mileage went up to 31mpg... However... doing it as a "better case" for the H2 at 80% burn efficiency and using actual gasoline efficiency at this load point of 20% the gas is only worth 760Wh at the wheels, where the H2 is worth 2400 Wh at the wheels... making the H2 worth 3.16lb of gasoline, taking us up to around 37mpg of actual gasoline consumption. This also neglects synergistic efficiency increases of the H2 and remember the "extra free" O2 on the burn efficiency of the gasoline mixture, and the improved efficiency of heat to cylinder pressure conversion which is likely to occur with extra steam in the chamber as a working fluid, all which may be worth another couple of mpg at least... There is no "free" energy here, it's just improving the efficiency of the system as a whole, the car is getting 30mpg at 20% efficiency, that means it would get 150mpg if all that energy were harnessed as propulsive effort. All you're doing is clawing some of that back. MIT knows that H2 increases combustion efficiency, they are working with Arvin-Merritor to crack H2 from gasoline in a plasma chamber called the plasmatron, they are conservatively estimating efficiency gains of up to 33% when 25% of the gasoline is cracked to H2. This process appears more efficient than electrolysis cells. Remember the gasoline has to remain in the picture to provide the inefficiencies to scavenge the rewards from, you're not going to get your car running on 100% water electrolysis like this. On hot days with a favourable engine design (one with relatively high piston speeds) you might take a few hours to run your battery down with a really efficient cell, but it ain't gonna run constant. It could be said that using electricity this way is overall more efficient than many electric hybrid motors.... in warm climates at least. There's gonna be a point where making more H2 doesn't get you any more MPG and MPG starts dropping, don't know where that is, most of these commercial kits are making relatively small amounts of H2 off stock alternators. Some of them seem to be giving apparently freaky results on small cars, like 70mpg in an Escort... well... the Escort could get 40mpg highway for a start, driven carefully, and with a relatively small motor has further to jump across the BSFC graph when loaded and is requiring relatively less H2 production to hit peak potential. Other ways of getting H2 into the motor might be investigated to get better overall efficiency than these electrolysis cells. Waste heat might be scavenged directly for H2 generation, and then you don't even drop that .75 lb/hr that you have to make back again. A possibility I will be investigating shortly is that ethanol can be cracked to H2 at relatively low heat, ~100C... with a catalyst... copper... doped with lanthanum (found in lighter flints) for improved specificity for H2 and reduced coking... so I'm going to copper plate my intake ports.. reasoning that it will crack the ethanol in the fuel to H2 as it is evaporating off the port walls, waiting for the intake to open (injectors are spraying at a closed valve during 90% of driving) So anyway, if you wanna screw with it, do so, use a big alternator, put lots of cells in series for best results (Best efficiency is at low voltage per cell, electrolysis starts somewhere around 1.7V so 6 cells across 12V is about 2V per cell. you can probably go to 7 cells, since alt output is probably at 13.5-13.8V) Road Warrior |
Actual car that ran on water
here's something interesting:
https://waterpoweredcar.com/1978camero.html claims to have ran a car just on water alone, seems that the key is high voltage going into the engine which instantly splits the water molecules right before combustion. whether it's true or not, don't really know. here's another one that is somewhate believable: https://waterpoweredcar.com/herman.html if anyone here get these to work let me know! LOL! |
Crossing over
I have been on the BS side of this debate. I am going to cross over to the other side. This reminds me of other developments whose early advocates received at best skepticism and at worst derision for concepts now widely accepted. Admittedly many articles supporting this are not written by scientists. The tinkerers invent new words and sometimes make statements that are not correct. They are however getting anomalous results that we could benefit from understanding.
https://auto.howstuffworks.com/how-a-...ine-works1.htm That was a well written article that clearly indicates that Hydrogen and gasoline mixtures can burn with an overall benefit. It also makes the point that the engine should be run lean for optimum benefit when using the hydrogen. We are talking MIT here. It probably is true. Generating enough hydrogen electrically is a challenge. Leaning out a computer controlled car can be done but it takes some doing. Some of those that claim they are doing this probably are. |
Hey clown, "Stan Meyers" was not murdered. He died of a brain aneurysm. Yes, I'm currently on the "HHO works" bandwagon but I am sick of morons spinning up the truth.
https://www.dispatch.com/live/content...1_4V77MOK.html Oh yeah, good old Stan was found guilty of "gross and egregious fraud" and ordered to repay investors $25,000. Why did he die recently? Well -- he DIDN'T unless you call 1998 "recent". Go back and sit in the corner! |
Here's one of my post from another thread:
adjusting air fuel mixture -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- products are marketed as to help adjust your air/fuel ratio and get more efficiency from your HHO generator: https://www.protiumfuelsystems.com/optimizer.html The Optimizer (also known as a dual edge map sensor enhancer) gives you full control of the air/fuel mixture on any fuel injected engine* by attenuating the analog signal of either the MAF (Mass Air Flow) Sensor or the MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) Sensor. This allows you to increase your fuel economy while tailoring the settings to work with your driving habits and horsepower needs. Most newer vehicles only need one adjustable parameter, however, the Optimizer is designed with two identical adjustment circuits giving you the ability to fine tune for low speeds under 40 MPH ('city') and a fine tuning for higher speeds ('Highway'). Plus, the control console can return your vehicle to it's normal operation or set for 'Performance' when extra horsepower is needed under a heavy load. here's another one: https://www.fuelsaver-mpg.com/store/ The purpose of this site is to bring to you gas savers that really work, thus saving you money, increasing the performance of your car, and making your car more environmentally friendly. Our current product line is limited to EFIE (Electronic Fuel Injection Enhancment) devices. I am planning on installing my own HHO generator and have ordered the Protium engine optimizer. Don't know if it'll work but what the heck...won't know until I actually try it. I am not affiliated with any of the above websites. ================================================== ======== I think that HHO assisted cars are better than any electric hybrid vehicle out there...but there's still a lot of work to be done to ensure safety. There are many different approaches to it and I simply don't like the use of baking soda in an HHO generator which I read (not really sure if it's true since I'm not a chemist) may generate poisonous gasses. I have found some HHO generation products that uses straight tap water which would be the most economical and safer that baking soda based kits. leaning out the engine is quite easy now with the products I've listed above and you can even build your own, there are plenty of schematic diagrams out on the net. I think that if more people start tinkering with it and the HHO community grows, standards can be established. it is somewhat of a "cottage industry" right now but there are many manufacturers out there with good to excellent HHO generators being marketed. I think that one thing that needs to be solved is the high amperage needed in order to generate enough HHO gas but with voltage modulators, it can be done as well. https://www.protiumfuelsystems.com has HHO generators which I think are among the best in the market right now, and their Optimizer is well built as well that would allow the engine to be leaned out. I am not attached to any of the websites above but I do think that Protium products are good (at least from what I've seen so far). I am still on the early stages of creating my own kit myself and looking forward to boosting my mpg to around 60 mpg. My civic has been getting 38 mpg with hypermiling techniques, a fuel heater, and Acetone/Xylene fuel additive, but it appears that I'm surpassing that now with the installation of Halo spark plugs (www.greenplugs.com). I'm just on my first gas tank with the Halo plugs but at 125 miles driven and not even a quarter tank spent (used to get around 90 to 100 miles for a quarter tank) it looks like it is working pretty well. I'm sure that it will get better with the other mods I'm planning and ultimately will get maximum results when I install an HHO generator (just the basic mason jar kit for now). I am quite pleased with my results so far. |
Nice post civic matic.
A lot of know-it-alls on this board who like to say that something is impossible only because that is is "what they heard", or "science says it can't be because you expend more energy then you are making". Last week I witnessed a new design of an HHO cell, (a simple Mason Jar design from a fellow experimenter) making alot of gas and only pulling 1 Amp. And the jar never gets hot at that amperage. Usually 1 Amp is not enougn to get much gas, and more than 3 Amps, the cell gets too hot, the water gets too Brown, and other problems occur. his design proved he could get a pretty good amount of gas for such a small Amp draw. Not normal. What I've learned is that the key is in the design. I am trying to replicate that design this week. It's people like yourself who go out and try it and prove it to themselves, whether something works or not, that will benefit. So be it. The unvarnished truth is some people are getting anywhere from 10% to 40% better fuel ecomomy with HHO being introduced into thier intake manifolds. With other gas saving techniques, like the PVC enhancer, the acetone and xylene mixer, etc, the fuel heater, the and ESPECIALLY the MAP sensor enhancer, savings are being made in the 70% range. Some people have little or no success with HHO only because of their faulty design or wrong hardware they are using, etc. You are right my friend about one thing. HHO will not work long term without a MAP sensor enhancer or a way to lean out your mixture. You may see better fuel economy for half a tank, but the second half will be significantly less, I am told, unless you can lean the mixture out. My understanding is that the ECU makes an adjustment for the cleaner exhaust it's reading by way of the O2 sensor in/near the catalytic converter. The ECU thinks the mixture is too lean...thus is wrongly then enriches the mixture causing much worse Fuel Economy during the last half tank. One way to beat this problem, (I learned from my last saturday meeting in LA with my HHO group), is to erase the memory of the ECU by simply disconnecting your battery at the half empty mark. By reconnecting your battery, all previous saved information from your first half tank is erased. It apparrantly needs about a half tank to adjust to what it is reading from the sensors. Try that and see if that works for you. Otherwise you will need a MAP sensor enhancer and/or another way to lean the mixture "on-demand", like the products you mentioned. Lets the naysayers suck up the gas at $5/gal. HHO experimentors like you and me and real thinkers like Road Warrrior, know that it works. Thanks Road Warrior for the MIT article. You got to believe that there is something to this when they write quotes like this: "Fuel efficiency is also gained through the use of higher engine compression ratios made possible by the hydrogen-rich charge characteristics. A hydrogen-boosted fuel system also saves energy because of the remarkably low amount of electrical energy needed to power the reformer. According to the developers, it needs less than 75 watts, which is less than the electric needs of one standard headlight." "An industry-accepted virtual vehicle analysis based on engine test data indicated the potential for a 20 percent to 30 percent improvement in fuel economy for a turbocharged downsized version of the hydrogen-boosted engine when compared with conventional gasoline engines." Of course the real geniouses on this site know better than MIT I suppose. LOL |
thanks.
a 1 amp HHO generator is awesome! that is super efficient. did he use a voltage modulator to power it up? I agree that the fuel savings that many HHO generator enthusiast are getting are undeniable. the key is just to lean out the air/fuel mixture. even a simple O2 sensor isolator can do it but a combination of both O2 isolator and a Map sensor enhancer can give the most FE. both the Map sensor enhancer and O2 isolator can even be used with a water injection system to increase FE. we just need more people to give it a try and see what works. the more people that try it (and to try it properly by leaning out the air/fuel mixture when the hho generator works) the more success stories can be seen and with that, the more acceptance the idea would get. I see many people on many forums shoot down an idea before even giving it a try themselves. I like to prove or disprove it myself instead of just jumping to conclusions that something does not work without ever trying it out. that just doesn't make sense to me. |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qc-Ci459kA0
Just thought i would add a you tube link from a news cast. Interesting stuff. Thats a lot of reading above, i think there is a bunch of knowledgeable people on this site and it would be awesome if one of you guys would make something like this work. Ill get some popcorn and continue reading the above post.:D |
hi.
there's already a lot of hydrogen welders in the market today. here's a link that lists companies that have been marketing hydrogen and HHO gas welders, generators, boilers, etc. https://www.waterfuelconverters.com/theindustry.html Companies Involved with Pure Hydrogen, Brown's Gas, and Oxy-HydrogenAir Products and Chemicals, Inc. USA As the world's largest supplier of merchant Hydrogen and an industry leader in Hydrogen fuel infrastructure, Air Products is in the forefront of the development of Hydrogen energy technologies. Alternative Energy Corporation - Canada An organization dealing with on-demand Hydrogen production technologies designed for the bulk production of pure Hydrogen fuel. Their technology is not electrolysis based and is grounded on fundamental chemical reactions (typically pure aluminum induced). B.E.S.T. Korea Company, Ltd. - Korea BEST appears to be the Worlds largest ongoing manufacturer of Brown's Gas Generators. They also have a number of intellectual property rights Patents in Korea. They possess novel designs for systems that use Brown's Gas Generators [up to 500,000lph] as the sole fuel in residential heating and incineration systems. Domnick Hunter Limited UK Manufactures a Hydrogen Generator that produces a continuous flow of ultra-pure Hydrogen reliably and cost effectively from de-ionized water and electricity. Eagle Research, Inc. - USA A Research Organization that has authored substantive information about Brown's Gas i.e. "Brown's Gas Book 1" and "Brown's Gas Book 2" covering some of the most important contributions to the field of Brown's Gas since the invention of Browns Gas in the 1960s. Eltron Research and Development USA This project deals with the development of a new compact Hydrogen generation reactor. It will perform the current multi-step generation of Hydrogen Gas from fossil fuels into a single reactor system. Epoch Energy Enviroment Corporation Taiwan Epoch manufactures a mid range of Hydrogen Generators [up to 20,000lph] and provides excellent information about Oxy-Hydrogen and Browns Gas technologies. FuelCellStore's.com - USA HG300 laboratory Hydrogen generator [up to 300lph] advertises as the superior choice for GC fuel and carrier gas supply. General Motors Inc. - USA General Motors has conducted extensive research and development into Hydrogen Fuel Cell technologies. General Hydrogen Canada Corporation - Canada A manufacturer of Hydrogen Fuel Cell solutions and pure Hydrogen Generator technologies. Green Hydrogen Ltd. - UK The UK's major supplier of renewable Hydrogen and Oxygen for industry and transportation. H2 Innovations, Inc. - USA Designs, manufactures and markets low-cost on-site Hydrogen generators and gas purification plants. Heliocentris Energiesysteme GmbH - Germany Fuel Cell and Hydrogen education. Hgenerators - USA Manufactures a Liquid Hydrogen and Gas Hydrogen [300lph] Generators. Hydrogen LLC. - USA Hydrogen LLC. is a research and development initiative formerly controlled by Westinghouse. The company is pursuing Hydrogen Fuel Cell technologies incorporating solid oxide design and air-cooled Fuel Cell technologies. Hydrogenics Corporation - Canada A manufacturer of pure Hydrogen high-pressure generators and Fuel Cell solutions HyRadix Inc. - USA HyRadix's flagship hydrogen generation systems the Aptus and Adio produce hydrogen tailored to customers' specific purity, flow, pressure and volume requirements. Mahler AGS GmbH - Germany Manufacturer of on-site gas plants for Hydrogen, Oxygen and Nitrogen generation, as well as plants for the purification and recovery of technical gases and process waste gases. Matheson Tri-Gas, Inc. - USA The Chrysalis. II "SEPG" Hydrogen Generator produces a reliable continuous output of >99.999% pure Hydrogen using only deionized water. NanoLogix, Inc. - USA A Nano-biotechnology company, with a portfolio of patents, has applications and marketability in the following areas: production of high value Hydrogen from industrial wastewater, municipal waste streams and agricultural feedstock. Has announced the initial sale of Hydrogen powered generator engines, which had been converted from gas engines. Parker Hannifin Corporation - USA Parker Balston. Hydrogen Generators produce flows of 90 cc/min, 150 cc/min, 300 cc/min, 500 cc/min, 800 cc/min, and 1200 cc/min of ultra-pure Hydrogen (99.99999%) gas safely and conveniently at regulated pressures from 0 to 100 psig. Peak Scientific - Scotland Manufactures a scientific Hydrogen Generator delivers high purity Hydrogen gas. Proton Energy Systems - USA A manufacturer of Proton Exchange Membrane on-site Hydrogen Generation technology. REB Research and Consulting - USA A Methanol-Water Reformer/Hydrogen generation solution producing a pure Hydrogen Gas to supply fuel cells, for brazing and other applications. Also researches and manufactures membranes, catalysts and Hydrogen purifiers. RTI International USA RTI engineers are developing membrane technologies for separating Hydrogen from the high-temperature synthesis gas produced by fossil fuel gasification. Silverwood Energy Inc. USA Designs and installs Solar electric and Hydrogen Fuel Cell systems to power residential and commercial energy applications. Teledyne Energy Systems, INC - USA This manufacturer produces a variety of Hydrogen Fuel Cell and Electrical Power generation technologies. TsvetChrom Ltd. Russia The TsvetChrom Hydrogen generators give you the ability to produce Hydrogen gas economically and consistently, right in the laboratory. USMagneFuels, Inc. USA Utilizes Prof. Santillis research to recycle to develop a Generator that can convert water-base, oil-base or liquid wastes into usable byproducts, including a clean burning Hydrogen Fuel Biogas, known as Magnegas. Virent Energy Systems, Inc. USA The potential of Virents patented BioForming TM process, an unrivaled method for converting the carbohydrates in plant matter into Hydrogen Gas, carbon neutral - renewable fuels and chemicals. Hydrogen Fuel Torch CompaniesArizona Hydrogen Manufacturing, Inc. - USA Manufactures small Browns Gas Generators [up to 300lph] driving Hydrogen Gas welding and cutting torches born from the work of William Rhodes. Equipnet UK Complete line of Oxy-Hydrogen Generators [from 200 to 2,000lph] primarily utilized for Welding, Jewelry and Dental Applications. Greengas Singapore Manufactures Browns Gas Hydrogen Generators up to 2,000lph to be utilized for all welding/cutting applications. Hydrogen Technology Applications, Inc. - USA The originator of the Hydrogen Fuel terminology "HHO" and also the trademark holder of "AquygenTM". Their Hydrogen Generator [1,500lph] is a Patent Pending Technology, however, it appears that it is utilizing older technology utilizing substantially higher electrical input to separate the HHO [Browns Gas] output. Oxyweld SNC. Italy Manufactures Oxy-Hydrogen Generators for welding/cutting applications with output up to 2,400lph. Peak Energy.net - USA Manufactures Hydrogen Gas Generators producing R-Gas [Browns Gas] for use in the welding and cutting industry. Rokura Aplicatii Industriale RAI Romania Distributor in Europe for HHO Hydrogen Gas Generators [output up to 1,500lph]. Siam Waterflame Company Limited Thailand Manufactures Hydrogen generators [up to 300lph] to be utilized for both Industrial and Jewelry applications. Stan Rubinstein Associates SRA Solder - USA Manufactures Jewelry solder, welders and cutters utilizing Hydrogen Browns Gas. Water Torch Collective, LTD - Canada This company distributes the premier common ducted Browns Gas electrolyzer in the world. The design of the 1200/1600 Series [1,200 to 1,600lph] is of such a high caliber that competing technology [utilizing 40+% more electricity] appears antiquated. Provides substantial information concerning Brown's Gas. Companies Involved with Automotive Hydrogen Fuel TechnologyBallard Power Systems Inc. - Canada This Company is recognized as the World leader in the design, development and manufacture of zero-emission proton exchange membrane [PEM] Hydrogen Fuel Cells. Canadian Hydrogen Energy Company, Ltd. Canada The company is focused on Commercial Truckers using a Browns Gas on-demand electrolysis system in automotive Hydrogen Fuel enhancement applications. Energistx.com USA Hydrogen mileage booster, utilizing Browns Gas, to improve engine efficiency. Go Green Fuel - USA A manufacturer of Commercial Hydrogen Fuel Enhancement Systems. Gorilla Development LLC. - USA The manufacturer of Hydrogen Generators that utilize the Gorilla Cell electrolyzers producing Brown's Gas. The company conducts exhaust emission research that is pushing the threshold of scientific data available about automotive fuel enhancement technology. Hy-Drive Technologies Ltd. - Canada The industry leader in Commercial Trucking Hydrogen Fuel [Brown's Gas] applications, utilizing on-demand electrolysis systems, that enhances Diesel fuel mileage. Hydrogen-Boost - USA The Hydrogen-Boost Brown's Gas system out performs the Automotive competition on two fronts i.e. the design of the common ducted electrolyzer and the system comes with extra components, including an electronic control circuit to vary the air/fuel mixture, putting it in another league from competitors. Hydrogen Fleet Conversion USA Will produce and market a Brown's Gas Hydrogen Fuel enhancer for all engines. Hypower Fuel, INC. - USA The company is focused on Commercial Truckers using an on-demand electrolysis system in automotive Hydrogen Fuel enhancement applications. Hydrogen H2 - USA Currently marketing an existing product, but will soon release a much more concise, and streamlined version to update their current line. Innovative Hydrogen Solutions Inc. Canada Manufactures H2 N-Gen a Hydrogen based alternative that meets today's pollution problems and improves mileage. National Vapor Industries, Inc. USA Produces and markets a Browns Gas Hydrogen Generator. add-on for combustion engines. Savefuel.ca - Canada A manufacturer of Oxy-Hydrogen automotive fuel enhancement technologies. They will be adding air/fuel optimization technology to their product line during 2007. Agencies/Universities with Pertinent Hydrogen Fuel InformationBerkeley National Laboratory - USA Researchers with the U.S. Department of Energys Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (Berkeley Lab) and Argonne National Laboratory (ANL) have identified a new variation of a familiar platinum-nickel alloy that is far and away the most active oxygen-reducing catalyst ever reported. Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation Australia CSIRO offers internationally recognized expertise in developing new technologies to advance the hydrogen economy. Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy Agency USA Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy Agency - USA The EERIE of the US Government provides information about Hydrogen, Fuel Cells and infrastructure requirements. From here you can visit Web sites of research centers and institutes involved in hydrogen and fuel cell technologies. European Union Fuel Cell and Hydrogen Program Europe The European Commission believes that sustainable energy systems are fundamental to our objective for sustainable development. Sustainable energy systems require the right balance of appropriate policies with appropriate, well-targeted research and technology development. This research must cover conventional and innovative energy production and conversion technologies, including Hydrogen and Fuel Cells. Hydrogen Engineering Research Consortium - USA UCLA's Hydrogen Engineering Research Consortium (HERC) aims at research/development, and education/public outreach efforts, that will help accelerate the realization of the Hydrogen Economy. National Renewable Energy Institute USA NREL's Hydrogen & Fuel Cells research supports the U.S. Department of Energy's Hydrogen Program. National Research Council Canada A new NRC technology in commercialization could be the key to getting the hydrogen powered fuel cell market charged up. Sandia National Laboratories - USA Experiments examine hydrogen-production benefits of clean coal burning. Stanford University USA Hydrogen is often advocated as an energy medium. Here are some relevant facts. White House USA Fact Sheet: Hydrogen Fuel: a Clean and Secure Energy Future |
I read the thread by a fellow board member who spent some time trying to get a system working.
Why can't someone just feed compressed hydrogen and oxygen (cylinders available) into an engine at the same volume as the quantities generated, and record the mileage increase using a scan guage? From that data it can be calculated if the increased power is suffecient to overcome the power necessary to generate the HHO. I am neither pro or con on this topic. I am skeptical that the volume of Hydrogen and Oxygen is really a significant portion of the volume of air-fuel mix the engine consumes over a given period of time. Consider a two liter engine running at 2000 rpm at WOT and full load would consume 1 liter of air-fuel mix per revolution or 2000 liters of air fuel mix per minute (probably lower but a theoretical max) I find it hard to believe adding a couple of liters of hydrogen and oxygen would have such a dramatic effect. Simply adding the hydrogen and oxygen without the generator would allow you the opportunity to supply either hydrogen or oxygen separately to see which was the major component of any improvement. Adding oxygen would make the ECU add more fuel, and the resulting combustion temps would rise dramatically (just my guess). Adding hydrogen at a rate of a couple of liters per minute represents such a small amount of additional BTU's of energy, but it would cause the ECU to lean out the gas mix to compensate. Just thinking out loud. Browns gas has been around many years, so I am somewhat skeptical. I did like Road Warriors explanation, but I don't know if I can believe some of the efficiency improvement claims. Its also necessary to understand most engines overall efficiency is 18% while peak is in the 35% range. Diesels are in the 41% range unless you consider some of the giant ones like those in container ships that are about 51%. For a 60% improvement in overall mileage you would have to increase overall efficiency by that same amount at both highest and lowest percentages, without any other changes. That would mean a 60% reduction in idle fuel losses as well as a 60% gain in peak efficiency, from 35% to 56%. the most efficent engine designed so far is a free piston compression ignition diesel, that converts combustion pressure directly to hydraulic pressure storage, at 58%. basically a tube with combustion chambers at both ends, where the force of combustion at one end creates compression and combustion at the other. Adding 60% increase in efficiency to a 58% efficient design would get you to 92.8 % efficiency. If the HHO generator was capable of so great a percentage improvement over conventional fuel. That percentage is really pushing credibility to the absolute limit. A free piston design has no crankshaft, con rods, valve train, as well as other parts. Google free piston engine to see an illustration. It seems like the supporting data claims a dramatic improvement in combusting 100% of the gas. HCCI (homogenous charge compression ignition has the potential to increase efficiency by 25% by perfectly mixing and completely burning every trace of gasoline, to the point where no further treatment of exhaust is necessary. If you have to make the engine run more lean or with higher compression, the HH0 injection has to an integral part of the system requiring no constant monitoring or refilling of additives to keep it functioning, while being legal for emissions. This may all seem like a negative response, but it really isn't. I would love to think I can add a small generator and get 60% better mileage, it would immediately get me 93 MPG in my VX. It would be pretty stupid of me to not want that improvement, and it would save the US about 400 billion in balance of trade deficits and make OPEC disintegrate. Applied world wide the savings could feed everyone on the planet. regards gary |
A thought on "adding Oxygen will make the ECU add more fuel" scenario.
Oxygen is needed in combustion. the Oxygen being added by the HHO generator should aid the combustion of the hydrogen being produced. since it is the same amount of oxygen required to recombine both atoms into the H20 molecule, why is it that the ECU detects extra oxygen in the system. 1) that could be because the combustion within the cylinders are not efficient enough to burn the Oxygen + H2 + fuel. how do you compensate for that - reduce the fuel. how do you do that, map sensor enhancer 2) if the combustion is not complete, maybe the car does not have sufficient compression and/or spark. how do you compensate for that - add better spark plugs (don't know how to increase the compression, but if you lean out the fuel mixture then you will have less fuel to burn which may solve your extra Oxygen problem that the O2 sensors are detecting.) and/or add water vapor (as in a water injection system but at a smaller scale since it's only water vapor, this also can be integrated with the HHO generators system by adding an extra jar with a bubbler system). I'm not an expert on the subject, I'm just starting out on this journey. but extra oxygen in the system added by the HHO generator should be burned back into H2O by the combustion process because the same ratio of Oxygen and Hydorgen is going into the system. the only remaining factor that may be causing an increase in O2 would be the incomplete combustion of fuel in the engine. I think that that may be solved by leaning out the fuel wouldn't you think? |
Civic, my suggestion was to use two separate containers of oxygen and hydrogen (from a welding supply company) that you could add in metered amounts to the engine, and immediately record the increase in fuel efficiency using a scan gauge. Add each individually or combined in different amounts as an experiment. Not a great idea to have those two highly explosive gasses in any quantity in your car, but for the purpose of testing it could be done on a chassis dyno.
No generator, just the results of adding specific measured quantities of hydrogen and oxygen together or separately. The oxygen and hydrogen are not being fed through the injectors with the fuel, so the scan gauge will record the difference as increased fuel mileage immediately, because it will only measure the pulse width of the injectors to determine the amount of fuel delivered for combustion. Since your oxygen and hydrogen are not measured (as a fuel going through the injectors) the smaller pulse width will give you a higher fuel mileage reading that should be exactly the amount of real increase, even though it is actually a false reading becasue it does not measure the amount of oxygen and hydrogen you are adding. If the mileage difference shows that you have increased it by an amount that is greater than the fuel necessary to generate the HHO you have an improvement. Game set match, proof positive, it works. In closed loop the ECU reads the oxygen content in the exhaust and adjusts the injector pulse duration to keep the exhaust oxygen content in the desired range. If you change that system, your modifications may not be emission legal and you could be fined $2500 per offense (applicable to individuals now) for each violation. Virginia has passed a law that requires these systems to be emission legal, and tested to verify they comply. Fooling the feedback emissions system to compensate for the introduction of a perfect mix of HHO should not be necessary, unless the dilution of that HHO mix with the Nitrogen in the air (about 80%) creates problems with perfect recombination. The gasoline is also competing for that oxygen in the milliseconds combustion occurs. I certainly am not qualified to teach the complicated dynamics of this modification, but I believe the recommended test should give real statistics. It may not be accurate to conclude that the recombination will be perfect considering some of the issues. I don't know for sure but some questions I have would be. The consequences of introducing only oxygen. The consequences of introducing only hydrogen. The consequences of introducing various percentages of HHO while measuring the increased mileages instantly using a scan guage. Pure oxygen introduced into an engine in any significant quantity without hydrogen will have almost the same effect as supercharging, since it has 5 times the concentration of oxygen in the atmosphere. regards gary |
OK, got it.
that is an interesting suggestion. isn't that the same concept as hydrogen powered cars minus the oxygen tank? I would be leery of carrying hydrogen and oxygen in compressed tanks though...seems like a ticking time bomb. LOL! it would be interesting to see the results if someone does do it. |
Releases more energy than it takes in? Really...?
How do you explain the law of conservation of energy? But as some people already know, sometimes it's not the amount of energy you have, but the conditions in which you have it that changes the appearance of energy output. I am sure there is a lot of battery charging involved, and more technical info than your average person can follow, as you must be upsetting the gas composition for the in and out... Possible pseudo code for such a device that would give the illusion of free energy: Charge battery Fill tank with H2O Use catalyst in water to make a more efficient electrolysis. Use as much...(thinks) (H2)2 O2 gas as possible, Send rest, if any, to small engine recharging battery for next cycle. All of the water4gas.blah statements would be validated using the above method, however ultimately, it would be quite impossible to get "free" energy. Just as it always will be. Your engine is controlling a chemical reaction, and all reactions that are reversible are only reversible to a degree, ultimately leading to at least an immeasurable loss every time. There is no such this as 100% efficiency, ever. If you want to get around in the most efficient mechanism on earth, start walking dammit. |
someone sent the pdf book.
its all very interesting we are starting some experments with it. guys in the back shop said they have had 5 to7 mpg with a hho booster its not much but worth a shot. ( water filter design and mason jar) ive made two and have given them to coworker who know what thier normal mpg's are .. i just got my hx and have no idea what my base line is. ( working on one mile at a time) |
Quote:
|
If this actually worked and you could achieve big power and big savings why wouldn't a car company offer it? A car with too much power, that's too big and doesn't cost anything to drive. Hmm I wonder; how well that would sell?
|
liability and service life.... they've got to be 100% sure that it's not gonna blow up in the face of Joe Average, when he smacks it with a tire iron while he's changing his air filter, and they've probably gotta warranty it for 3 years or so. Don't forget it has to be freeze proof, relatively maintenance free, and not gum up when it inevitably gets tap water, ditch water, mississippi river water, florida swamp water etc etc put into it, nor blow up when, speedi-lubes latest half stoned high school dropout oil pan thread stripper tops it up with power steering fluid. So, when they can be assed spending $50 million on R+D to make the perfect foolproof HHO cell is when you'll see it in production cars. Meanwhile instead of investing to improve FE, chrysler seems to think it's worthwhile to put a few millions into subsidising gas for it's customers instead.
|
So if it's so easy and so great where's the data to back it up? Who converted their car?
|
If anybody questions the validity of using hydrogen as a fuel, why would NASA be so interested in finding ICE on other planets? Of course, you could make rocket fuel from ice with the right equipment, they have been making devices like that for years. S0 why not use hydrogen generated by hydrolysis to use in an IC engine?
You should check out the books at: https://www.knowledgepublications.com/ and tell me what you think! |
I don't see any flaw with the 60% claim.
Guy about 75 miles from me was selling his '94 Suburban and it was getting 13 city, 17 highway, in line with EPA ratings for that model. He added an HHO kit of some kind and the truck got 17 city, 22 highway. The mileage increase was not due to driving techniques, because it was his WIFE's truck and she was not informed of the HHO system and didn't think to drive differently to maximize the mileage. A blind test if you will. Say the engine was 20% efficient before, and is now 32% efficient (60% improvement). The mileage increased by about 30%, half of the improvement. But 30% is 2.5 times 12%, the change in efficiency. I imagine some of the HHO injected returned to a water state, and helped burn off the carbon in the engine that had built up over 150K or so before the system was installed. I think full-size trucks and SUV's can greatly benefit from these HHO systems, and if I get a chance I will put a setup in my 454 TBI Suburban. Right now I'm getting a constant 10-11mpg regardless of driving habits or AC usage or added cargo/passenger weight. If I can increase that by 30%, then I'm looking at 13-14mpg. For such a seldom used vehicle whose sole purpose is hauling all 7 of our kids, moving more cargo than my wife's car can carry, or towing a travel trailer, it would be a very welcome improvement. The $160 it takes to fill the 40-gallon tank would take me 120-160 miles further per tank. If the HHO system costs me $300 to install, then I will make that money back in 6-7 tanks. If I can get it done for the $120 this guy claims to have spent, then it will only take 3 tanks to realize the savings. Of course that's 2 months of driving in that truck (10K/year), but I plan to keep it for at least 5 years until our two oldest are in college and I can look at 7-passenger vehicles with 4500-5000lb towing capacity, and by then I might be able to get away with a 1994-1996 Caprice/Roadmaster wagon (LT1 V8, overdrive automatic) and get 24-26mpg highway. 5 years of driving getting 13mpg instead of 10mpg will save me about $4600 at $4/gallon. More than enough to buy a very well kept jellybean wagon. Oh, and I found a 2000 Saturn SL for a commuter, silver, 5-speed, just like my last one. Wrecked in front but only needs the core support, radiator, headlights, and a hood. High hit so no bumper or fender damage, and it runs smooth and still has cold air. Radiator is technically good but supports are cracked and I won't be able to make the cooling fan work until it's replaced. $600 car, so even though I prefer 80s bare-bones economy cars I don't think I can pass this deal up. EPA on those was what, 29 city, 40 highway? And there's someone on here with an SL1 who regularly gets 50-55mpg. Take off the power steering and other bits, add his wheel skirts and other bits, and I'm not too far from 60mpg. Forget the Insights selling for ten times that much with 200K on them. |
Quote:
|
Yeah, it makes you want to smack your head against a wall when you see things like "My minivan only got 14mpg and now it gets 21mpg that's 50% improvement, with this bolt in a jar/pill in the tank etc" or "This mid size sedan only got 20 now it gets 30" ... ... ... ... half the time you're thinking, "well I could have had that for an afternoon and got 5mpg better without that gizmo"
|
Here are some pics for those interested. Please know I'm not selling or endorsing anyone's product. Everything you see I made. I'll answer any questions to the best of my ability.
https://www.fuelly.com/attachments/fo...87ca7673bf.jpg[/URL][/IMG] https://www.fuelly.com/attachments/fo...50d36bd2bf.jpg[/URL][/IMG] https://www.fuelly.com/attachments/fo...d8bf87ed00.jpg[/URL][/IMG] |
Does nobody have a problem using water or food sources for energy? It will be hard to drive anywhere on water if you are parched or hungry. They are finite sources of energy that are most important for thier intended use...substanance! Calling CORN a replentishable resource is falacious. It uses water and land resources that are at a premium. Solar power is on the opposite end of that spectrum...it comes from outside our planet. Wind power is generated from sources that also do not use up natural resources.
|
We don't lose water in the process of growing corn. The water ends up back into the air where it falls from. Same goes for using water for fuel.
|
Quote:
I currently have a 1989 Trans Am that I have been running a Smack's booster on for a few months now. A couple of weeks ago I converted it to E85 since where I live I can get it for over a dollar less than gasoline, so I get a pretty good price spread. I will be able to run it on either gasoline or ethanol. I also have a 1992 Chevy 4WD Supercab using a Smack's booster and I will be converting it over to E85 soon. And I have one on of all things a 1952 Cub Farmall, the booster almost puts out enough to idle the tractor, lol. |
Quote:
ICALLBS |
Quote:
A user on another forum reports 25mpg from a 1987 S-10, and he doesn't claim to drive easy or slow (and most on that forum drive fast and hard). |
I got the same engine 2.2 liter but better aero and actually worse trans and my last tank was 38+mpg bringing my average to over 35.
|
Quote:
|
works for me.
Well, I'm back for the moment. I'd left this site because I don't have the time to argue with uneducatable morons, and it seems there were a few trolling about on the HHO issue. I've spent the last few months studying HHO usage and building generators, experimenting on the car and truck with them.
Thus far: The 02' Silverado 5.3 went from it's average 16 to a temporary 19.2 before the 'pooter took over. I put extenders on the o2 sensors to no effect. Haven't driven it much without the trailer, so haven't been able to do anything more, but MAP enhancers I built will go on next. (because they're cheap and easy to make) The '93 Toy Paseo had it's very best at 30 mpg when hypermiling with nothing added to it. Did that several times. Built a series unit that runs .9L/min @ 10-12 amps, ran the gas thru a copper tube across the exhaust manifold and got 36 mpg. The gas heater didn't add mileage, but restored a little power loss that the HHO seemed to create for some reason. Most say they feel more power, but I sort of think that's imagination. I wrote an article called "Subconscious Hypermiling", using a term I think came from this website; I probably should put it here. My vehicles always are tuned, with good oil, etc., so there's not anything to change or skew results there. I think the guys who notice their cars running smoooother...had something off to begin with; my stuff was always smooth, or I'd park it and FIX it. Biggest lesson to date was to shift to series cells. There is nothing else out there. Low amps, low heat, high output - what's to argue? Next biggest lessons are electronics. Ebay may be cheap, but don't expect service when you wire it wrong or it dies. Ultimate lesson: Don't attempt HHO enhancement if you don't have patience, and the willingness to see it through. MOST computer controlled fuel systems will have to have the inputs enhanced a bit to make the ECU leave things alone. Suggested monitoring devices are: Amp gauge: tells you when water is low or a problem with unit, or overheat. Clear bubbler: shows your production at a glance A/F gauge: keeps you from overleaning the engine and frying things. Anyone not using a bubbler is an idiot. Anyone not using a blowout plug needs to do some reading. Anyone not using an ammeter is flying blind. A neighbor who's been into this for a couple years (Hydrodine) had a pop in the garage and put pieces through the sheetrock wall. Examples like this are abundant, but were not at first. Live and learn...when you get your hearing back. https://www.fuelly.com/attachments/fo...ad3dc62c22.jpg |
I'm now convinced that the way to fracture water efficiently is the missing from all the basic internet theories I have seen so far, my Cantonese is ok but my Mandarin is good, I can understand some of the Chinese experimenters are doing strange things with the frequencies or resonance of the water cell, don't be down on a new technology guys, it needs all the support it can get.
|
Quote:
|
We've all seen the latest Popular Mechanics -HHO Test right?
More testing results from PM, coming in the near future... |
| All times are GMT -8. The time now is 02:16 AM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.