Bring Your Hho Questions!!!
 

I have been reading a lot of the hho threads and i can answer almost all of your questions, i dont have the time to hunt them down and then compete with the people that think the earth is flat.
Not everyone is suited for driving small cars in a smart way. I am nearly 7 foot tall and i have a size 15 foot. the only way i get a geo to move is if i throw it.
hydrogen is a viable solution and i do actually have a working model, i dont have the numbers you want right now, but that is only because i am to busy stress testing everything. i build my own cosm and my own pwm. if you want to learn or ask questions feel free. If you want to nit-pick and annoy i dont have the time. :D

Hey, welcome to the forum. I currently don't have any questions but thanks anyway for trying to help out. You're a lot better teaching people DIY solutions than those people who get on here advertising the latest HHO generators that cost $500 when you can build one for less than $50.

So thanks again, and welcome.

people have helped me to learn what i know, i dont mind helping others.
and besides if your systems is actually worthwhile you dont have to try and sell it, it will sell itself.

It will sell itself... That's a fantastic way to see it.

-Jay

Needless to say, but pics or it didn't happen... https://www.fuelly.com/attachments/fo...338efbe74f.gif

was that a question?

He's saying he wants several good pics of your installed setup.

Okay, i'm a little edgy this morning... i will work on it.
i dont even have a camera... yet :p

Oxygen content
 

Hello Lurch,
I am concerned with the lean out conditions of running Browns Gas in an internal combustion engine. My expereince is that lean engines run hot, and damage pistons and valves. Adding of Oxygen to combustion will increase efficancy. Nitrous oxide injection greatly increases power, but only can be done reliably if more fuel is added to prevent lean damage.
I am assuming that HHO is 66% hydrogen, and 33% oxygen. How much Oxygen is need to burn the Hydrogen? Would there be any Oxygen left to lean out the Gasoline/Air mixture?
I have read alot of post, Web sites, and watched many Videos on HHO generators this week. I have even made a generator, installed it, and made a MAP sensor Voltage adjuster. I am concerned about excessive leaning of the engine however. Most people seem to think that the lean condition of the O2 sensor is due to the clean burn of the Hydrogen. Is this the fact?
I also havn't seem to find any information as to Timing adjustments. Should engine timing remain the same, or is advance/retard in order?
Do you know of the longest someone has operated a vehicle on HHO assist? It seems most info I have run across has been; I just built this, I have just tested this, I am thinking of building this/or that.
Thanks for any help, AmachinistJeff

I know, I too would like to see long and imperical testing. People either just build it or disappear.

As for O2 sensor, it reads the amount of O2 in the exhaust (or is it %?). We know there is unused O2 and unburnt fuel in the exhaust of a typical car. If you did something to cause the fuel to burn better or more completely or could reduce the amount of fuel coming out the exhaust while using the same amount in the intake, then in order to burn this fuel we'd use O2 and there would be less O2 in the exhaust (lean). Sometimes this can be associated with increased exhaust heat as well and sometimes we burn all the O2 there is but still inject extra fuel to cool the charge and resulting exhaust.

So, if somehow you got a more complete burn in a normal car it would think it's lean and start dumping in more fuel, which is why people usually mod the O2 sensor or ECU. If you're worried about heat the first thing you should do is install an EGT gauge and if the numbers look too high here then I would suggest water injection. Either a mister, bubbler or ceramic vaporizer should help add extra cooling to the charge and add some efficiency advantages due to the expansion characteristics of steam.

Ideally 66% H2 and 33% O2 should 'burn' to create H2O steam, which is why many people call the inherent idea 'free' energy because you're hoping to split water into H2 and O2 and then burn it and somehow get more energy than you started. But the goal is that the H2 and extra O2 also help burn the unburnt gasoline and cause a more complete burn which is why the O2 sensor would read lean. Otherwise if H2 and O2 fully combine back to water then they will not affect the O2 sensor reading at all, if anything they'll take up some room in the intake charge that otherwise would be taken by air (with 8% O2), so I would think you might even see a rich condition.

Since narrowband sensors are only responsive around normal stoich, there's no real good way to mod a system to still "fully" use a narrowband. The best way would be to go with a wideband that can emulate a narrowband at whatever ratio you want, so you can define a new "stoich". While I probably won't be jumping onto hho myself in the near near future, once I get my car sorted out in terms of just car issues to get it to run fully properly stock, I'm thinking of playing with water injection. While it'd help me with advancing timing, overall, I'd want to be able to go leaner across the board if possible, and the only way I can think of doing this with the ecu functioning in normal open/closed loop modes would be to have a wideband emulate narrowband at a leaner ratio.

Sorry guys, been busy last few days and havent had a chance to get on here.
Hydrogen systems arent as simple as ebay or youtube would have someone believe. I have a water cooled intercooler on my test car just to cool the intake air, i also have a temp sensor directly on the head of my car. but as far as changing the timing, it shouldnt be an issue as of yet.
Most generators reach fairly high temps and therefore create more of the excited hydrogen knows as Orthohydrogen, ortho burns hot and fast thats what makes us have to reset the timing and watch engine temp.
I have a secondary generator on my car that produces Parahydrogen. para burns slower and not very hot at all. we can get around temp and timing issues by regulating the mix of these 2 different kinds of hydrogen being put into your engine.. adjusted right it can completely simulate the octane rating of the fuel your car requires.
i have been running my system for roughly a month now, and no i dont have any numbers on the mileage i was actually working on this for the power increase. i have a 280z built for drifting and just thought it would be a cool addition, but i can assure you it has given me more power and smoother acceleration then i ever thought my engine was capable of, i have to look at the gauges just to be sure the thing is running.

Forgot to talk about lean out conditions on my last post :(
the idea of hho is not to lean out fuel entirely, but to lean out gasoline and replace that with hho.
we arent removing fuel, just changing what we are burning.

HHO Problems
 

Only one month into the "testing Phase" of a HHO Gen. and I took a peak on the inside of the housing....

The Plates, threaded rods and nuts looked like they were "Melting" ??? Yeah!! They Are Stanless Steel .. ((all Non-Magnetic all Non-Fe))

What's going On Here??

I am getting a High resistance reading on the Ohm Meter...

I have four photographs of the effect that I am getting from this condition.

I followed the instruction to the letter ... Except for the part about Glueing the Top of the PVC on -- I did seal it with a nice bead of sealent. I did this so I could clean it out better and inspect the plates -- Damn good thing that I did that...

Jim.

Hey lurch,

I got interested with HHO first as a skeptic, but them began reading a little more started wonder weather there might be something to it and began researching more about and got to the point where I was ready to try to install a system on my own car. From there after reading more and more and seeing outlandish claims and conflicting information, I began to wonder back to the skeptics side. Anyway here are the practical problems I never was able to get answers for:
I have a subaru wrx with a 2.0L turbo charged motor.
My first problem is this. The most common method of installing HHO is to tap the HHO into the airbox. My concern is with having a turbo charged car, what failsafes can I install to ensure that water will not accidently be pumped into the air intake and in turn into the hot turbo which would be catastrophic for the turbo?
Overcoming this my question deals with the heat generated by the turbo. Turbochargers generate a lot of heat. If I pump the HHO pre-turbo could the heat generated ignite the hydrogen in the turbo before it even reaches the intake manifold and the engine?
If the answer to the above question is to pump the hydrogen post-turbo than how do I over come the pressure generated by the turbo to inject the HHO? My boost peaks at 17.3 psi is I try to inject the hydrogen into the intercooler or the intake manifold how do I stop the manifold pressure simple pushing the hydrogen back to the generator?

I would recommending cutting the the HHO on and off with the evap canister solenoid signal and routing it with inline checkvalves through the evap system... This is because, this will already be set up to avoid reverse flow under boost, it will only work in vacuum. Secondly, the ECU "knows" when it is doing an evap purge, and is prepared to let the injectors go much leaner at this time. As such the ECU kind of has control over the HHO system and will not try tuning around it, or tuning it out.

However, then you have to figure under what conditions the ECU frequently triggers evap purge and try only to drive in those conditions (Typically it's at high vacuum cruise, which is real convenient)

Need your help please
 

I have just fitted a 13 plate dry cell to a Saab 93 2.2 turbo diesel. Been using it for over 2 weeks and see no gain but actually loss 3-4 mpg. I connected the output hose to the air intake hose 4 inches from going to the turbo. Should i relocate the hose near to the airbox before or after the MAF sensor ?

I am very close to installing my HHO system on my 2006 4.7 V8 Dodge Dakota, , I am now at the sensor enhancement phase. I need a MAP and Dual EFIE enhancer. I would like some feedback on which digital MAP/EFIE enhancer I should go with while trying to avoid paying an overly ridiculous price. Is "soft start" the way to go, and what about a digital voltage meter?
Any Ideas?

What material is everyone using to "sandwich" the plates and what thickness?

Have you looked at the power consumption (battery vs. alternator output) from these systems yet?

On the 4.7L Dodge Dakota, I found a more viable option was simply removing the clutch fan to get more MPG.

I also ran without an alternator and had a range of 50 miles on the stock battery.

There are many options, a lot depends on your plates. As far as thickness, 3mm (about 1/8") I've read is ideal, but you can go thinner if you are running a pump. Some people keep the gaps wide (that's not my way, but people have there reasons).

I'm putting together are low budget HHO cell that should have very good efficiency and high(ish) out put (if it doesn't leak too bad).
I'm documenting it in an exempt to start a blog.

Ive been following this movement since it started and had hoped that by now it would be more mainstream, but understand why it is not. Too many unanswered questions: I still do not understand why there is an abundance of oxygen in the exhaust.....ie. If you burn H2+2O2 you get 2H2O. This should not....if it is being burnt as claimed, cause an excess of O2 in the exhaust. And if all the claims that I have read are correct, that burning the H2 will cause gasoline to burn more completely, then there should be even less atmospheric O2 than with out the system. Can anyone explain.....really EXPLAIN this process? thx

That is a very good question...

yesterday I read this and started looking up things about O2 sensors, and that led to another thing, and 4 hours later I forgot what started it.

Anyway, I've heard a lot about this (i also post on a few HHO forums).
From what i can tell people don't really know what they are doing, and come up with reasons that it work.
Some people say that the extra H2O in the exhaust is read as more O2, but I think this is bogous, a large amount of normal exhaust is H2O.
Further more I can't seem to find a one mention of O2 sensor tuning in relation to people who use water injection (used with superchargers to keep form knocking)
I think a big part of the efie thing is that it improves mileage, and if a crap cell for sale won't then they through in a cheap little box that does help.

It's really a snake oil biz, so it's really good to question everything.
I don't really see it as a reasonable way of improving mileage for me, but I do things because they are fun and interesting, not because they are reasonable.
If your looking for mileage savings, add acetone to your gas (2 to 3 oz per 10 gal) This will reduce surface tension so your injector will give a better spray, and you'll burn more of it. This is a much easier way of reducing this inefficiency.
Another way is to inject a small amount of propane into your intake, this will act just like HHO, with out the draw on your alternator.

Okay, so i guess the idea is that a normal car pumps about 15% of the fuel into the exhaust unburnt.
The idea of HHO working properly is that more of this fuel gets burned in the cylinders. If it does burn pre-exhaust than there is not as much O2, so the car thinks it's running rich...

Wait a second, that would mean that you would want to do the opposite thing to the sensor...

I think the main thing is that you can get away with a leaner burn, I'm would never recommend anyone doing this with out a way of reading exhaust temp.

How much Hydrogen (HHO) in LPM is needed to supplement for lean gas?
 

How much Hydrogen (HHO) in LPM is needed to supplement for lean gas?

I have an 07 HHR LT 2.4L and get an average of 25MPG. I do about 80% highway driving. I would like to get a 5+ MPG increase to 30+ MPG.

Trying to get info, I read the thread on "Need some help with my math, how much HHO needed?" which talks about replacing gas. Very interesting but I'm not looking to do that. I just want improve MPGs a bit.

As a supplement, adding Hydrogen and oxygen to the mix, makes a lot of sense and in theory, should work well.

The problems I see are

1. The mix. How many Liters per minute (for my engine) is needed to supplement at highway speed (approx. 2300 to 2500 RPM) to keep the engine from burning holes in the pistons and ideally run at normal temps? I have researched a lot and no one seems to address that question. I have seen claims that 1LPM almost doubled the MPG of a moterhome with a V8. I think that is a bit "too good to be true", but I don't really know. Reading your (Learch) posts, you talk about Parahydrogen. This is the first I have read of Parahydrogen, can you tell us how it is generated and would this be better for MPG's? I calculated that my car burns about .03 Gal per Minute which is .14 LPM of Gasoline. That makes a LPM of HHO seem like a lot and even enough to run a can on, but its not.

2. At a heaver 15 to 20+ amp draw, is this going to negate the fuel savings? Is this draw going to burn out my very expensive alternator? Is there a way to lower the amp draw? Does pulsing the current work? I have read that pulsing the current can lower the amp draw at the same HHO output. Is a dry cell better than a wet cell?

3. Having to constantly monitor and adjust settings as you drive. Is there something, a box that I can buy, that adjusts automatically?

4 I read that modern cars are tuned rich and can actually run well on a leaner mixture but doing so significantly reduces the life of the catalytic converter. Will the addition of HHO in the mix prevent this or make it worse?

Hello members ! I have been experimenting with HHO for 2 yrs. now. Last wk I built an 11 cell unit with 20 gauge, 304 stainless plates. 3.5X3.5
Initially, I mixed 2 ltr of distilled water with 1 ltr. Of 50% liquid KOH. The amp draw was 18 amps, and I got 1 1/2 ltr/ per min. I thought this was fantastic, so I drove for about 100 miles to test the unit. I averaged a 25% increase in mileage on an '07 Malibu V6.(3.5 ltr engine), but the storage tank got quite hot.
Next day I drove about 30 miles to work, then home again. When I checked the unit, it was drawing 10 amps and putting out about 1/2 ltr. per min.
Normally, when water is consumed in these devices, the amp draw should go up due to the fact that the KOH is supposed to remain in solution, and only the water diminishes.
I have found this problem with all of my testing, and surely would like to get around it.
If you have any suggestions, I sure would appreciate any help you can render.



Regards. Dave Lynds 1-902-223-6141
davelynds@eastlink.ca

Re: Bring Your Hho Questions!!!
 

Can I put in a thermistor circuit to monitor and regulate the temp of the HHO generator?

new to forum and interested in installing hho
 

hi everyone. I am new to this forum. I have a 2005 yukon with 5.3L. I have been researching the hho kits for my truck to see if it is worth the money. i talked to a guy i know who built one himself on a 2000 gmc fullsize pickup. he says that without he got 600 km/tank and with it on he got 1000km/tank. is there anybody on here that has installed a hho kit on a 2005 yukon with a 5.3L? i have heard that on some vehicles it dont work.

i am new too this forum. i have done some research on the hho kits and want to instal one in my 2005 gmc yukon 5.3L. is there anybody here that has installed one with positive results? and what manufacturer did you use? thanks.

Sounds like Lurch has been out to lunch for a few years.

Be careful with the acetone, make sure your it doesn't dissolve the plastic, rubber or other materials on your vehicle. Same precautions you should use if you're putting E85 in a vehicle it's not designed for.

Questions about building a hho
 

Hello i have been reading through your site and seems really great.. Read alread a few ehow and instructable guides and more or less they all describe the same process... I am interested in building on of my own out of parts i might be able to have around my house or out of the near by hard ware shop.. I have an old diesle 2.5l utility van old 80s pre computer days.. Very simple mechanics.. A person i once knew told she had purchase one hho for her vw trasporter bus so i figured it was worth a try on mine...
The problem is that most sites i find with diy guides are either just as a test sample or for normal cars... What are your experience with diesel van engines?* What dimensions should the plates* be? What litter capacity? Is it neccessary for the stainles steel plates? I have read about also using rods? Also how often would ihave to refill the generator? Lets say i want to make a 600km trip driving at 80km/h average speed in would need about 60l of diesel.. How much water consumption would there be?
Thanks if you can answer?

Water consumption is very low (with any well designed cell), most systems only need to be topped off once a month, but checking every time you get fuel is a good idea when you start out. I don't know first hand, but have heard that diesels do quite well with hho. For highway driving,most people shoot for about 1 L of HHO for every L of engine displacement.
Go with a cell with stainless plates, unless you have nickle,platinum, or titanium plates hanging around. Read more about dry cells and why there are multiple plates.

Thanks so you say that for a 2.5L engine i should have a 2.5/ or 3l hho unit?.. I was more reading about a wet cell where the plates are inside the water system

fotorebelion - It sounds like you have a perfect vehicle to try HHO on. See this website, I used this for much of my planning as it seemed to be a fairly solid reference. (keep in mind, every vehicle 'can' be different) https://www.fuelsaver-mpg.com/how-much-hho-should-i-use

If it was my project I would shoot for hitting 1.5 - 2 liters, I'm no expert when it comes to diesel, but from what I've heard I think they work better with a bit more HHO vs gasoline.

I think a wet cell is a great idea if you're looking to keep your project cost effective. Stainless steel or better is necessary because of the corrosive electrolyte you'll be using. I would suggest KOH, it works the best in my experience, I've heard if you use baking soda that you're pates will become dirty and its less potent so you'll need to use more.

A few other suggestions I have for you.

Make a bubblier with some type of relief valve. (mine was a hose barb with plastic sandwich bag stretched over, then small piece of hose over it to keep it sealed) A bubblier also acts as a filter to filter out the corrosive electrolyte so it doesn't enter the intake.. I'll explain.

So you have your hydrogen cell, wet cell/or dry cell, the gas comes out and some folks just pipe it directly into their intake and be done. With a bubblier it acts as a buffer sort of speak. Gas comes out of the cell, goes into the bottom of the bubblier which is filled with plain water (distilled) about 1/2 to 3/4 full and bubbles to the top then comes out a hose then goes into your intake to the engine.

So in the event that spark ignites the HHO gas the bubblier should hopefully contain and release the pressure. Worst case scenario is that the bubblier explodes and you have harmless water everywhere, verses your cell exploding and getting corrosive electrolyte all over your engine compartment. (By the way KOH burns, bad!)

With a wet cell I'll warn you about a couple other things, heat/thermal run away. I've heard that wet cells can get hot, so make sure you do your homework on the design. They can have what's called thermal run away and the cell gets hotter and draws more amps and produces more gas and steam and puts a strain on your cars electrical system and sometimes the cell can break from the heat. Use either a fuse to cut off the cell at a max amp draw of the fuse, so if it draws too much it doesn't do any damage. I have a pulse width modulator (DC motor controller) and I have an analog amp gauge to avoid those issues.

I don't have information about dimensions for building a wet cell, I went with a 21 plate dry cell that I purchased. I went with a larger cell than was needed to keep my heat to a minimum. My cell still gets hot at 110-130 Fahrenheit even at 10-12 amps, so keep that in mind.

Good luck!

fotorebelion - It sounds like you have a perfect vehicle to try HHO on. Search "how much hho should I use" and you should see one of the top hits is from a site that has "fuelsaver" in the title. -they didn't allow me to post the link- That website seems like a good reference, (I used it) but it's always a good idea to cross-reference with other sites and experiment to get your best results.

If it was my project I would shoot for hitting 1.5 - 2 liters, I'm no expert when it comes to diesel, but from what I've heard I think they work better with a bit more HHO vs gasoline. (I could be totally wrong here)

I think a wet cell is a great idea if you're looking to keep your project cost effective. Stainless steel or better is necessary because of the corrosive electrolyte you'll be using. I would suggest KOH, it works the best in my experience, I've heard if you use baking soda that you're pates will become dirty and its less potent so you'll need to use more.

A few other suggestions I have for you.

Make a bubblier with some type of relief valve. (mine was a hose barb with plastic sandwich bag stretched over, then small piece of hose over it to keep it sealed) A bubblier also acts as a filter to filter out the corrosive electrolyte so it doesn't enter the intake of the engine.. I'll explain more.

So you have your hydrogen cell, wet cell/or dry cell, the gas comes out and some folks just pipe it directly into their intake and be done. With a bubblier it acts as a buffer sort of speak. Gas comes out of the cell, goes into the bottom of the bubblier which is filled with plain water (distilled) about 1/2 to 3/4 full and bubbles to the top then comes out a hose then goes into your intake to the engine.

So in the event that spark ignites the HHO gas the bubblier should hopefully contain and release the pressure. Worst case scenario is that the bubblier explodes and you have harmless water everywhere, verses your cell exploding and getting corrosive electrolyte all over.(By the way KOH burns, bad!)

With a wet cell I'll warn you about a couple other things, heat/thermal run away. I've heard that wet cells can get hot, so make sure you do your homework on the design. They can have what's called thermal run away and the cell gets hotter and draws more amps and produces more gas and steam and puts a strain on your cars electrical system and sometimes the cell can break from the heat. Use either a fuse to cut off the cell at a max amp draw of the fuse, so if it draws too much it doesn't do any damage. I have a pulse width modulator (DC motor controller) and I have an analog amp gauge to avoid those issues.

I don't have information about dimensions for building a wet cell, I went with a 21 plate dry cell that I purchased. I went with a larger cell than was needed to keep my heat to a minimum. My cell still gets hot at 110-130 Fahrenheit even at 10-12 amps, so keep in mind that it's not a good idea to over work your cell.

Good luck!

not to be a bad person but with the expermenting have seen little change on the road but a little gain in town with HHO. haven't seen anything to make the chance of the damage to the engine and the backfiring THAT CAN HAPPEN TO make it a reasonable use. even changing the ratios (even adding a 2 speed rear end only works as an increase at certain speeds and pulling power needed). if you have any good info I would like to know of the increase.

I'm all for good healthy discussion about ways to improve fuel economy, but I find the discussions on HHO and HCS seem to keep going round in circles and never reach any valid conclusions on whether they work or not.

People have been talking about and building these devices for years, I just found a thread with some 240+ pages, yes pages, not posts, with no conclusive results.

And in all of the discussions no one seems to put up any comprehensive A-B-A test results.

If these devices actually worked then there would be plenty of data out there to support that fact.

I'm not trying to stifle debate or cause trouble, but if anyone out there has documented A-B-A testing showing either good or bad results please feel free to share.

For example, we all know that slowing down improves fuel economy, there are many graphs available to show how MPG changes with speed. Just look at my Miss Piggy 2 data, there are two fill ups that involved long motorway trips, those two tanks are 5-7 mpg worse than my normal values.

Oliver.

I don't think many of the experimenters really want to know whether HHO works. If they did, they would perform their experiments under controlled conditions, not on a vehicle on the road. Such testing might involve putting the vehicle on a chassis dynamometer with accurate fuel flow measuring equipment, running at some constant load, and switching the vehicle-supplied power to the HHO equipment on for a while, off for a while, and documenting the results. But of course, such testing would be "too expensive" for experimenters.