Consensus? What consensus?

[Mayhim]

In the long run we'll have to find an energy source that is a powerful and as versatile as petroleum is or changing to it just won't work. Wind and solar are not powerful enough or versatile enough to do the trick, and are little better than add-ons. You can't grease your mower with hydrogen, nor can you use it in the tens of thousands of products and services made from or modified by oil and its by-products.

Nuclear is good in that it frees up natural gas for other things and is clean. It is safe and efficient, and if the greenies and their lawyers would leave them alone the power companies could build more new, smaller plants in a number of locales. Technologies have evolved from the 60's, even if the hippies haven't.

To change the petroleum paradigm would require changing the world with something new and improved, and we simply dont' have a single equivalent energy source yet.

New technologies are wonderful, and they will eventually have their days in the sun. But don't think for a moment that any new energies will be as cheap as, or cheaper than, oil was in it's cheap days.

Energy companies are, by their nature, money-making companies. Any group of people in charge of such an important resource as energy will be sure they won't be left out of the Rich Sector. Why should they? They are in business to make money, and that's what they're doing.

I don't like paying too much any more than anyone else, but this thing called petroleum will find it's price in a new and growing world economy regardless of the whining of Americans that still can't operate a soft gas pedal or brake pedal.

It's the new world order that everyone is complaining about, and the operating manual is written in languages other than American English.

And, most of all, changing everything for a not-well-fleshed-out utopian 60's kind of ideal seems kind of weak to me. The Co2 boogeyman is not what we should be spending our money on.

[civic_matic_00]

Originally Posted by suspendedhatch

Al Gore is a dumb-*** and would never have turned environmentalist if he had been given the presidency (I wont say "won" because he did in fact win it). I hate democrats. I'm not a big fan of Obama but I'd take him over Mccain. That's not saying much cuz I'd take just about anyone over them both. So now that we have that out of the way...

at least we agree on something. Al Gore is a dumb a**, although I don't hate democrats, their my comic relief.

There is no gas shortage. There is plenty of gas available outside of the middle east. Drilling for oil will make a lot of rich people get even richer. Unfortunately it's going to cause all kinds of irreversible damage, but hey, people will get richer. Will gas prices go down? Hell no! Gas prices WILL NEVER GO DOWN SIGNIFICANTLY. The most gas will ever go down is less than a dollar per gallon. More like .50. That's just business.

no shortage of gas? do more research please. one of the main contributors of high gas prices is increasing demand. if demand is higher then supply is lower.

drilling for oil wil make a lot of rich people get richer, that's capitalism. it's also a fact though that drilling for more domestic oil will lower the deficit, increase supply - hence lower the price, and allo the US to be not at the mercy of the middle east. that's common sense. the law of supply and demand is universal, if we increase supply, the price will GO DOWN SIGNIFICANTLY and until you can find an economist that can prove that the law of supply and demand does not work there is no way in hell you can say so otherwise.

Yeah the economy is bad now but it's not a disaster like the great depression or like you see in some other countries. If this economic down turn is all we had to worry about if we instantly dropped gasoline and switched to alternative energy then it would be well worth it. But there's no need to instantly and completely shut off the oil.

I thought you said the economy is not crashing, and now you're admiting the economy is bad. way to do a turnaround. stop contradicting yourself.

alternative energy STILL CAN NOT REPLACE oil 100%. show me how it can? you just can't!

Maybe try getting your info from somewhere other than conservative talk radio and Fox news. You simply can't trust any American media because it's in corporate hands. Oh wait, it's LIBERAL. Yeah right I wish it was! I wish someone could direct me to some of this liberal media.

LOL! now you are totally in the dark. if you can't see that 90% of the media isn't liberal then I'm not surprised that you're totally misguided. you still haven't shown ANY SINGLE FACT THAT ALTERNATIVE ENERGY CAN REPLACE oil 100% right now.

How do I propose we solve the problem? Well we seem to have billions of dollars a day to drop bombs in foreign countries. Troops are dying, the bad guys are winning. We're not any safer... Why not use SOME of that money to build a network of electric "gas" stations or natural gas stations? Or Swarzenaeggers (forgive the spelling) electric highway? Anyway I never proclaimed myself to have all the answers. I could brainstorm ideas at best. But anyone can plainly see that we are on the wrong path. It doesn't take a scientist to figure that out. There are plenty of possible solutions, but conservatives just want to go with what will make the most money for the companies lobbying them. BUT AT WHAT COST? I will have grandchildren 10 years from now. By then, people like you will be a bad joke. Just like how the woman with a hole in her neck preaching against smoking while toking a cigarette is a bad joke. That was a SIMILIE.

we have dollars to drop bombs because we have no choice but to do so. if we are using 100% domestic oil then we wouldn't need to go fight a war someplace else as you liberals call it.

using some of that money to build electric gas stations would mean that we will have governemnt controlled enterprise. Socialism anyone? oh, wait, that's the main liberal agend in the first place, socialism.

I agree, you don't have all the answers, you don't even have a clue as to how our economic system works. We are not practising socialism. capitalism works with private enterprise. in order for your "electric gas stations" can get built PRIVATE ENTERPRISE would need the fund to use for it. if you do not allow PRIVATE OIL COMPANIES to increase their revenues then they will be unable to convert the infrastructure to alternative energy. that is what you are missing! It is called private enterprise and the government need to allow them to make the money and not penalize them. Russia, China, and other oil companies that are outside of the US are all being allowed by their government to increase their revenue, hence you will find (if you would only do the research) that US oil companies ARE ACTUALLY SMALL COMPARED TO OIL COMPANIES OUTSIDE OF THE US. if we do not allow US oil companies to increase their revenues then we are doomed to repeated energy crisis.

So enough with emulating Hannity PLEASE. Bad enough I have to listen to it at work!

now I'm emulating Hannity. you are so off base with all of your theories is not even funny anymore.

I agree that Alternative energy needs to be increase, but you still can not see that there's no funds for it. if you socialize it (as you're implying) it will not work as efficiently (as any government entity has shown). if you want o live in a socialized system, move to China. Here in the US the system is capitalism and the government needs to work within that system.

do some more research will you.

[civic_matic_00]

Originally Posted by suspendedhatch

And stop pretending like drilling for oil now is going to be instant and cost-free while building alternative energy sources is cost prohibitive and will take too long. Last I checked, off-shore oil rigs, oil pipelines, refineries, and transport networks cost money, take a long time to put in place, are vulnerable to accidents, weather, and terrorist attacks. Windmills, geothermal plants, tidal power, etc seem like pretty viable options by comparison.

show me how alternative energy won't be cost prohitive and will not take a long time? YOU CAN'T! AS ALWAYS, YOU CAN'T!!!!!!

drilling for more domestic oil will have an instant effect on oil future prices. that's a fact.

if drilling for more domestic oil will take time, alternative energy will take an even longer time! solar panels are only 18% efficient at best and the wind doesn't blow all the time, converting all cars to plug in electric cars in a very short time will put a strain on current power plants and will result in energy shortages. As I've said before the infrastructure is not there yet and you keep holding on to the pipe dream that we can convert everything quickly. We can not convert everything quickly. you can not and will not replace oil quickly as some of you are implying. again, if you can do so, prove it!

[uiStop pretending like the technology isn't here! The technology has been up and running for over 20 years. Not only in other countries but right here in the states!

Stop pretending like the money isn't there. If congress can write Bush a blank check to borrow money from Japan and China and throw it at the middle east, then they can write a much smaller check to build infrastructure and fund research and development. (this happens to be the cause of our lagging economy btw)

show me where I said that the technology is not here yet? there's plenty of new technology that can do so, if only there's funds to manufacture them en mass! again, there's no funds to do so.

you're right, Congress does write blank checks and borrow money from Japan and China, and GUESS WHERE MOST OF THAT MONEY IS USED FOR? TO BUY OIL! again, the debate goes back to whether we're going to keep buying oil overseas or increase domestic drilling. Again you are so way off base with everything that you're saying.

If Bush and Clinton hadn't each vetoed requirements for stricter mpg on SUV's we wouldn't be paying the gas prices we are now. The SUV craze proved to the oil companies that people were willing to pay much more for gas. With so little regulation (we don't want to be like Venezuela and pay 12 cents a gallon after all) and with their hands in government, there was nothing stopping them from increasing gas prices. Originally they shut down refineries for "maintenance" to justify it but they don't even bother doing that anymore!

WRONG AGAIN, if we would've started increasing domestic oil supply, we wouldn't be paying the gas price we're paying now. it's all supply and demand. lack of supply is increasing the price.

refineries need maintenance. refineries within our borders are well over 30 YEARS OLD!!!! not one single new refinery have been built for 30 years! the current refineries we have are outdated and are aging. as any mechanic or engineer would tell you, the older the machinery the more maintenance you need!!!! again, you are so off base, do some more research!

[trollbait]

You can't grease your mower with hydrogen, nor can you use it in the tens of thousands of products and services made from or modified by oil and its by-products.

Which is why I'm against more domestic drilling until we get serious about the alternatives. Better to save it for the things we can't replace it for.

[rgathright]

Originally Posted by trollbait

Which is why I'm against more domestic drilling until we get serious about the alternatives. Better to save it for the things we can't replace it for.

I agree with you.

Why did it take an oil crisis to cause GM and McCain to preach EV's to the American public? -I think the answer is that the American consumer had to feel the price at the pump to feel compelled to purchase an EV. The good news is that consumers are now buying hybrids faster than they can make them.

The next step here is to see if Americans will purchase and use EV's. Once we can get a favorable answer we will be on our way to dependence on coal and wind. Until GM can make EV's, we are stuck drilling in the deep waters of my home state's coastline.

[bowtieguy]

Originally Posted by civic_matic_00

...if you want to live in a socialized system, move to China...

your entire post was well said, but i fancy this statement in particular. i've used a similar one myself.

to the moveon.org crowd: PLEASE, by all means, MOVE ON!!!

this planet is STILL quite spacious, go live somewhere else!

[civic_matic_00]

Originally Posted by bowtieguy

your entire post was well said, but i fancy this statement in particular. i've used a similar one myself.

to the moveon.org crowd: PLEASE, by all means, MOVE ON!!!

this planet is STILL quite spacious, go live somewhere else!

the question is - will they even consider moving to a socialized country and lose their liberties? at the very least, they will actually have plenty of stuff to protest about if they move to a socialist country.

many of them demand that the governement does something, yet fail to realize that our economy works within the capitalistic system. why don't they just get out of the closet and declare what they are really asking for - a socialistic state.

[bowtieguy]

Originally Posted by rgathright

I agree with you.

Why did it take an oil crisis to cause GM and McCain to preach EV's to the American public? -I think the answer is that the American consumer had to feel the price at the pump to feel compelled to purchase an EV. The good news is that consumers are now buying hybrids faster than they can make them.

The next step here is to see if Americans will purchase and use EV's. Once we can get a favorable answer we will be on our way to dependence on coal and wind. Until GM can make EV's, we are stuck drilling in the deep waters of my home state's coastline.

good point however...

MOST people cannot (or should not) buy a hybid or E car. this is precisely why i support a comprehensive plan to drill NOW and work towards alternative fuels as well.

world economics is a delicate thing, cold turkey ain't gonna work!

[rgathright]

Originally Posted by bowtieguy

good point however...

MOST people cannot (or should not) buy a hybid or E car. this is precisely why i support a comprehensive plan to drill NOW and work towards alternative fuels as well.

world economics is a delicate thing, cold turkey ain't gonna work!

Fact: The world does not produce enough ceramic capacitors and other high end electrical components needed to satisfy the demand that selling 400,000 electric vehicles in the US would create. I am experiencing this problem with my battery charger right now!

People are paying a premium for Toyota Prius hybrids. They are used to purchasing overpriced automobiles, the H2 is a wonderful example of this.

As time rolls on in the next 5 years, the US will transition it's vehicle fleet to electrics slooooowwwllly. We will pay an ever increasing premium for gasoline which will satisfy the middle east. Consuming their oil gives us a tactical edge, watch the "Road Warrior" for a first hand perspective of this.

[bowtieguy]

Originally Posted by rgathright

Fact: The world does not produce enough ceramic capacitors and other high end electrical components needed to satisfy the demand that selling 400,000 electric vehicles in the US would create. I am experiencing this problem with my battery charger right now!

People are paying a premium for Toyota Prius hybrids. They are used to purchasing overpriced automobiles, the H2 is a wonderful example of this.

As time rolls on in the next 5 years, the US will transition it's vehicle fleet to electrics slooooowwwllly. We will pay an ever increasing premium for gasoline which will satisfy the middle east. Consuming their oil gives us a tactical edge, watch the "Road Warrior" for a first hand perspective of this.

good points here as well. again there is a but...

just as the housing bubble did burst, so too will our endless over borrowing. loan approval is even now getting tight. how many could afford a fully electric vehicle tomorrow(if it were possible) anyway?

same goes for the fuel prices. if no relief comes, we WILL have an economic crash. so many have cut back already, next will come massive stale consumer activity, then deeper recession, lastly depression(maybe worse than the first one).

5 years, NO WAY, i drive a truck for a living, won't happen. MAYBE, just maybe, trucking companies could start conversion to biodiesel and/or hybrids on are large scale.

i've often thought about extracting our own oil while continuing to suck the middle east dry. still, refining our own oil would bring down the price of foreign oil and strengthen the US dollar assuming we export(we should). China and India, in years to come, will help consume if we go independant of the middle east.