Hybrids killing mileage of non hybrids

[Bill in Houston]

The 5-speed Insight had lean burn and some kind of special adsorber to help with the NOx. The engine would switch to a rich cycle from time to time to regenerate the adsorber.

[SVOboy]

But that model was also LEV and not ULEV and lost some privileges in certain states like CA for rebates and things because of it. And, you'll recall, the insight is no longer in production,

[Bill in Houston]

Of course, you are correct. I was just saying that there are ways to handle lean burn, and that Honda had a production car that had done that.

Was it perfect? No.

Was it a jillion times cooler than a Prius just running at stoichiometric all the time?
Oh yeah, it was. To me, at least.

[jadziasman]

Civics really have not been all that inexpensive. I bought my 92 VX new in May of that year and paid $11K without A/C which I added on for another grand. Out the door - $12.5K. A 92 CX was at least $2K less but it had no "must have" feature that the VX had - ultra high full efficiency and adequate hp/torque. I was lured in for "the latest thing" and was willing to pay extra for it. So, taking inflation into consideration, the 07 Civics are no more expensive than they were 15 years ago. But they still sell at a premium to the domestic garbage because they're Hondas dammit! $12.5K in 1992 dollars probably has the same purchasing power as $20K today. Add a few more bucks (with the tax break if you are lucky to snare it) and you're talking Prius or Civic Hybrid territory. Japanese nameplates keep getting better for essentially the same price over time. I will never buy another domestic car and if things keep going the way they are - I won't be able to!

[jadziasman]

Civics really have not been all that inexpensive. I bought my 92 VX new in May of that year and paid $11K without A/C which I added on for another grand. Out the door - $12.5K. A 92 CX was at least $2K less but it had no "must have" feature that the VX had - ultra high full efficiency and adequate hp/torque. I was lured in for "the latest thing" and was willing to pay extra for it. So, taking inflation into consideration, the 07 Civics are no more expensive than they were 15 years ago. But they still sell at a premium to the domestic garbage because they're Hondas dammit! $12.5K in 1992 dollars probably has the same purchasing power as $20K today. Add a few more bucks (with the tax break if you are lucky to snare it) and you're talking Prius or Civic Hybrid territory. Japanese nameplates keep getting better for essentially the same price over time. I will never buy another domestic car and if things keep going the way they are - I won't be able to!

[Telco]

Originally Posted by BeeUU

The current environment will not allow the late 80's metro/civic fuel champs anymore:
The american consumer (thinks they) want(s) a car that crashes into the wall at 40mph and can walk away without any action on their part, like buckling a seat belt.
At least 8 airbags plus:
Power seats/Heated seats/Leather seats/Power windows/Power locks/Power mirrors/DVD entertainment for all passengers/Air conditioning/heated windows/heated washer fluid/automatic transmissions.

I have to disagree with this, this is what the automakers have convinced people they need. A fully optioned car has a much bigger profit margin than a stripper, even when you take option package "discounts" into account. I tried ordering a 2001 GMC full size pickup in 2001, wanted just a 5.3L with AC, auto, power windows and doorlocks, nothing else. Not even a stereo or carpet. The dealers himmed and hawed, whined about how the manufacturer was going to deny the order and it would cost them an order slot, and refused to give any kind of discount even though I was buying 2 cars at once. Finally told the guy that if he wasn't willing to work with me on the truck, I wasn't going to buy anything there, tore up the paperwork on the other vehicle for the wife that we had negotiated but not signed yet pending the truck deal, and walked out. Glad it worked that way really, because shortly after the company I worked for announced bankruptcy and my income plummeted. Learned a hard lesson there, no matter how many years you draw it, don't live off the overtime.

But even now, I like strippers when I buy cars, don't want anything more than an automatic trans (wife has to be able to drive whatever I have and she can't grasp the manual trans), AC, power windows and doorlocks, and those really aren't necessary. Joe Public may think he needs to keep up with the Jones's, but I'd rather have my current debt to income ratio than a bigger TV or fancier car. If you don't take the house payment into account, my debt to income ratio is 0 percent .