what can this car achieve driven worthy of its cause?
 

i've read the posts and links...all intriguing, but what can this car REALLY do? we've heard GM claim 100+mpg, and we've heard critics claim as low as 20-30mpg. heck, a post on the last link claimed 35 in a Prius :eek:

we need a hypermiling driver to test drive one...thoughts?

Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!
 

I think it comes down to using this vehicle for the way it was designed.

If you have a short commute around 45 miles, the Volt will be a perfect vehicle for you. It will give you the luxury of a EV vehicle but it will not leave you stranded when you deplete the battery power.

The Volt doesn't get the best mpg when in charge-sustaining mode. But it can be a killer vehicle if you use it correctly.

GM needs to sell the Volt based on what its made for and not be so Vague.

Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!
 

Honestly? It is a great car. I know that my father in law's mother refused to get an electric car because "What if I need to make a long trip?" Despite the fact that she hasn't driven more than 20 miles away from her home in years.

This is the answer. It is an electric car, that is capable of taking those long trips that people occasionally take, and are scared of electric cars for.

You'll never get stuck for 12 hours while the thing charges in a standard outlet at your friend's house, or you'll never be left calling into work because you forgot to plug it in last night, and now don't have enough charge to make it to work and back.


It is a brilliant car, an electric car for people who want one, but are too scared of the inherit risks with one.

Yes, the ICE does couple with the drive motor in extended range mode over 70 mph. If it's more efficient that way, what is the trouble? Would you rather it only power the generator and be less efficient?
Yes, it gets "only" 36mpg when in extended range mode. Wow, how.. Horrible?
There are only 2 mid-size sedans on the market that can do better than that. The Prius, and the Fusion hybrid (Milan doesn't count. It is a fusion)
Neither of them can match the fact that on an average commute, the volt IS an EV.


To put it most simply, the Volt is an car for people who would want an EV, but are too scared to get one.


Heck, why don't we bash the Leaf? It gets 0mpg when not in EV mode.

Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!
 

36mpg is horrible if you're buying a vehicle to be "green" and to save "green". You'd be much better off buying a Prius/Plug-in prius, even if it means you're speed limited to 62mph in pure electric mode. With the Volt and the Plug-in Prius having such poor range in EV mode, you really shouldn't be using that mode to drive at a high rate of speed on the highway as that's not the advantage of what electric vehicles hold over gasoline vehicles. It's like buying an H1 Hummer to commute in London.

Why anyone would pay such a high price premium for these vehicles just to be a smidgen more "green" or even potentially less "green" (coal power plants) than those vehicles that are already out on the market today and are far more economical. The Plug-in prius should fill the niche of people who want an electric vehicle without the price of an electric vehicle nor the inconvenience of an electric vehicle. The volt is a complete joke.. The range of 25-50 miles on the Volt is so pitiful and narrow that if that really is the sweet spot for your "all electric commute" whilst having the luxury of going on longer trips, maybe it IS for you. However, the price tag alone for this luxury should scare you and with the government subsidizing these vehicles, it's really encouraging a vehicle that shouldn't exist except for those who don't know any better. I wouldn't be surprised if in the future, people add additional batteries to their plug-in Prius vehicles, giving it the same or better range as the Volt.

This response makes no sense in response to any conceivable question. 0mpg first of all doesn't apply to the leaf since it doesn't burn gasoline and secondly your point about it not being in EV mode makes no sense because it's always in EV mode. I have a vague idea of what you're getting at but you're still wrong. You're wrong because you're paying a huge price premium for little to no benefit. The Volt is more expensive than the Leaf whilst not doing anything particularly well. It has poor range as an electric and poor fuel economy/range as a gasoline vehicle. If you want a vehicle that can potentially be all electric and work as a gasoline hybrid, the Plug-in Prius, which I'm sure will be cheaper, would make more sense. If you want a real electric vehicle, I'd wait for the Ford Focus EV before getting the Leaf.


There are far too many things going against the Volt that makes it difficult to see it's an appealing vehicle at all. Why does the volt get at worse 30 and at best 50mpg when the Prius can do better than that kind of mileage unless GM really does have such garbage engine designs? 40 mile all electric range would drop to 10 miles where I live thanks to all the rolling hills and steep terrain of California...yet this is the exact demographic the volt is appealing to. [Just think of the transmission gear ratio of the CRX HF Federal (2.95) vs California/High Altitude (3.25)]

Re: what can this car achieve driven worthy of its cause?
 

The difference is, GM is claiming 100mpg based upon using the EV mode, not in charge sustained mode. It skews the results and paints a prettier picture then it really is. Charge sustained mode is the only MPG that we should be concerned with. This whole mixing and matching and "but what if" scenarios with the EV mode and charge sustained mode is just a bunch of marketing gimmicks. People would be ****ting themselves if Toyota was promoting the Prius as getting 90mpg, when really, to get 90mpg, you have to be a hypermiler and driving on flat, empty roads. It just feels disingenuous to call the Volt a high MPG vehicle when that MPG number perfectly masquerades the vehicle's actual efficiency by not even factoring in the electricity that was generated and used to power the vehicle. At least when you call a Prius a 50mpg vehicle, the whole environmental and efficiency picture is clear. No manipulation or lying to achieve that number, just simple standardized testing. But with the Volt claiming this ridiculous MPG numbers, it implies one thing but it's actually something else. At the very least, the volt's MPG numbers need a large asterisk beside them.

Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!
 

I don't get what everybody has their panties in a bunch about it. Its an electric car with a 40 mile range. You plug it in every night and you drive electric the next day. Its not like GM set it up to only drive electric once your gasoline tank is empty.

Get over it. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Plenty of other people will and the vast majority will plug it in every night.

Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!
 

i'm not convinced of the lies and deception claim. i'm a former GM guy(hence bowtieguy) that has forsaken them not because of products, engineering, or performance, but because of unions, bailouts, and lack of future vision.

now, i think it's clear that this is a different type of vehicle--not a full ICE, and not a conventional hybrid(and certainly not fully electric). over priced and over promised? perhaps, but GM cannot afford to sell for little or no profit, especially now.

take it for what it is.

Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!
 

Honestly, I feel if your regular driving habits would make you cringe at 30 MPG for extended range mode, then this car isn't right for you. You belong in a Prius. If, on the other hand, you would rarely use extended range mode, (such as with my regular route) then this turns into an ideal vehicle.

Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!
 

As I understand, that's the entire point of the vehicle. It's not intended first for people who need to run on gas for extended trips, its main purpose is for people who can drive it all-electric every day but are worried that they'll get stranded.

Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!
 

Right. I could drive it all week and use NO gas as long as I plugged it in at night. Then on the weekend I could drive it to Maryland and not worry about the battery crapping out and be stranded on the road somewhere.

I would use NO gas all week. That sounds just awesome to me. I can't do that now.

Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!
 

First off, the range on the plug in Prius is 12.6 miles in EV mode.

The range on the Volt in EV mode is between 30-50 miles, with the average of 11 magazine test drives getting 36.8 miles in EV mode. (Car and driver flogged it in the twisties and mountains and got 31 miles, at 80mph commuting they got 26 miles)

The average daily commute in the USA is 16.5 miles each way, totaling 33 miles round trip.

So, the average driver in the USA would never use any gas on their commute. Well, the engine would kick on each month long enough to use a tank in a year, but that is so the gas won't go stale.


I say that again. The average driver in the USA will never use gas on their commute.

Plug in prius? For a commuter? A waste of gas compared to the volt.

The average commute is 33 miles, the plug in Prius lasts 13 miles in EV mode. So, that's 20 miles in hybrid mode, at a wonderful 50mpg, every day, 5 days a week, 4 weeks a month, 12 months.
4800 miles a year in hybrid mode, at 50mpg.

The average commuter, on a year of commuting with the Prius plug in, will use 96 gallons of gas.

The average commuter, on their commute, with the Volt? 10 gallons per year. 1 tank, to make sure it doesn't go stale.

How is the plug in Prius a better car for a commuter? For the average commuter, the Prius uses 10 times the gas of the Volt! I'd say the Volt is green.

If you're constantly making long trips, or you have a commute longer than the Volt's EV range, then yes, the Prius is better, but the average commuter in the US is best served by the Volt.



Firstoff, you're missing my point! Both the leaf and the Volt are electric vehicles. Not plug in hybrids. However, the leaf, by being a dedicated electric, and smaller and lighter, can get a longer range, yes.

The problem is, if you're over at your friend's house, having forgotten to recharge the leaf last night, and you go out to discover that you don't have enough range to get home? You better hope your friend has an extra room, because you're going to have to wait seven hours for your car to charge on their standard outlet, because I doubt they have a quick charger installed in their garage.

If you're in that same situation with the Volt? Oh well! You'll get a "mere" 36 mpg on your drive home, then you can plug it in and charge it again overnight.

Or let us say you have a leaf, because your commute makes it ideal. What about those times you need to make a longer trip? Or even better, what if you came back home so tired you forgot to plug it in last night? Do you call off work because you don't have enough charge to make the commute? You would have to in a leaf, but a volt? Oh well, you'll get your car and get a "mere" 36mpg that day, then remember to charge it that night.

Edit:
I have another situation? What if you need to go on a rare trip several hundred miles away? With a Leaf, if you don't own another car (And the expenses that go with it), you'd have to pay several hundred dollars to rent a decent car, plus the gas that comes with it, and a midsize car that would fit all you need for the trip would likely get around 30mpg.
With a volt? Oh no. You're going to get a "mere" 36mpg on this trip, which you can do without any additional paperwork, or additional expenses.


As I have said. If you're regularly making long trips, or if you have a long commute, then Yes, the Prius plug in would be a better choice. That 50mpg is excellent even with the downside of the 13 mile range. Well, even then you'd have to have a commute of about 12 miles of "hybrid" mode to make the Prius worth it. But if you do? If you have a commute of 50 miles per day or more? The Prius is better.
However, for the average American commute of 33 miles per day, combined with the average American's fear of being stranded by an EV, or the desire to take the occasional long trip, the Volt is the car for you.



BINGO! And for those people, it is an amazing car! All the benefits of an electric car, but none of the drawbacks! Yes, you don't get the benefits as greatly as a Leaf could, but for the average driver, you don't need them.

Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!
 

I will add this:

America has been scared of EV's because of "What if?"

What if I run out of charge? What if I need to go farther?

THAT is why America wouldn't buy EV's.


And the Volt has the answer.

What if? Well, if it happens, your Volt changes from being an EV to being a well put together, well optioned, comfortable family sedan that gets better MPG than 97% of the family sedans you can buy.

That's what if. And that is why the Volt is the car to show America that the EV is not to be feared.

Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!
 

That is an excellent answer.

Thank You.

Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!
 

agreed. leave out the intellectuality and focus on the practicality.

Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!
 

Exactly, because if its not practical, most people won't do it.

Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!
 

You guys sure have worked hard to defend this vehicle, yet I can't remember, but why would you pay at least $32K for a Prius like vehicle that can run in purely electric mode for between 25-50 miles and gets only between 30-50mpg when it runs in charge sustaining mode with the gasoline engine? I'm very skeptical over the volt's range as running the heater in the winter is going to either run the gasoline engine (therefore not a pure EV) or it's going to suck the batteries dry VERY quickly. If the Volt had cost the price that it does now or less but had a 100 mile range, I wouldn't be so quick to criticize because then I could be rest assured that for the great majority of the time, the gasoline engine would not come on. A trip that is more than 100 miles would definitely fill the bill as an uncommon occurrence. However, with an official range of 40 miles that can and will degrade depending on age of the batteries, driving conditions, accessories, etc., the claim that this vehicle will be mostly an electric is false.

You'd be buying an electric vehicle mostly for two reasons: The novelty of having an electric vehicle and for the environment... However, the second point isn't valid for the majority of the country thanks to the usage of coal. This vehicle would be a horrible fleet vehicle, yet I have a bad feeling it may be used just for that purpose in which case, the fuel economy of its gasoline engine WOULD matter. We don't know the price point of the Plug-in Prius but I'm pretty certain it will be less than the Volt. The range should be less in the Plug-in Prius, but the environmental impact will be less, for the majority of people thanks to the fact that 50mpg with gasoline means less emissions than 100% pure EV mode being charged by a coal power plant. However, if you're one of the lucky saps that has "clean power" (natural gas)/(hydro), then you probably live in a part of the country that can be both hot and cold, is mountainous, like in California or very hot like in Arizona.

So, if you're an environmentalist in CA or AZ, then your estimated range should be substantially reduced, and will get worse over time. If you're an environmentalist in the middle of the country or on the east coast, then the argument of being a purely EV or mostly EV vehicle being "green" is invalid thanks to the dirty power that the majority of the country has. (coal)

Also, you can't possibly be buying this vehicle for economical purposes because it's so much more expensive than a Prius and is completely unsuitable as a fleet vehicle. A common argument against the Prius is that it's not economical over that of a non hybrid because of its price premium except when used as a high mileage fleet vehicle. (Taxis, delivery, courier, etc.) The Volt however is NEVER more economical in any scenario because you couldn't put enough miles onto the vehicle in EV mode in order to take advantage of the cheaper energy used to power the vehicle.

As for novelty, if I wanted a "novel vehicle", I'd get the Nissan Leaf or the Ford Focus EV, at least that way you'd have a purely electric vehicle with somewhat acceptable range and a much lower price tag.

Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!
 

Btw, the Leaf is an electric vehicle (duh) but the volt is a plug in hybrid. The govt. is calling it a plug-in hybrid, and so is everyone else now.

Also, the volt isn't as "green" as the Prius thanks to it abiding by the lower emissions standards than other hybrids on the market.
https://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2010...ing/?src=twrhp
It's only a ULEV vehicle when the decent hybrids are already AT-PZEV (have no gas tank emissions and have much longer emissions warranty, and stricter exhaust emissions).

Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!
 

First, in reply to your first post, all I was able to glean is that you're claiming that EV's are inherently not green due to the source of electricity. (This isn't worth arguing how clean "clean coal" is, though that is a very valid argument for another time.)

And that belief makes your second post make more sense.

However, if you are like the rest of the world and see the EV as the ultimate of green vehicles, the Volt makes more sense than the Prius.

I say again, as I showed in my previous post.

The average American will never use any gasoline on their commute in a Volt.

Over the course of a year, even if you count the single tank burned to keep the fuel from going stale, the average commuter will use 10 times more gas in a Prius than in a Volt.

That's like trying to say that an H1 is Green compared to a 1st gen Insight.


I say that, because to the average American commuter, the volt is an EV. To the average American commuter, it will NEVER see PHEV mode. Therefore it is more fair to compare it to a large, comfortable Leaf that you never have to fear it running out of charge.

The Volt is an EV for people who are scared of getting stuck, or think they might have to make a long trip.

If you have a long commute, or are regularly making long trips, the PHEV Prius is a better choice, but the average American will be served wonderfully by the Volt.

Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!
 

Feel free to not buy a volt. The rest of the world will turn it into a sales success, over time more and more cars will adopt the volt's drive train arrangement. Version 2, 3, 4... of the drive train will become cheaper, faster, lighter, more efficient as more and more people buy the car. But don't worry. You can stick to your guns all the way through that. After all, this is really about you now isn't it?

Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!
 

With the way you've been describing EV vehicles, ANY EV vehicle is "more green" than a non EV vehicle. That makes no sense if you understand that there is an environmental cost to producing electricity and makes perfect sense if you don't think there is an environmental cost to producing electricity. Go compare the Ford Explorer EV with the Toyota Corolla and tell me with a straight face that the 2001 Ford Explorer USPS Electric is "more green" than the 2001 Toyota Corolla... Go to fueleconomy.gov and make the comparison yourself.


Now that's bull****! Why? Because it'd be incredibly rare for someone (not elderly) to drive their vehicle for 100,000 miles and NEVER see PHEV mode. I don't know how the heater works in the volt, but if the car is seeing sub zero temperatures, from what I know, the vehicle uses the gasoline engine to heat the battery.. Therefore using up to or going past the "only 10 gallons" mark.

Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!
 

The same can be said for yourself..

Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!
 

The average American commuter. On their commute. As I elaborated in the earlier post.

The average commute is 33 miles per day.

The average Volt EV range is 36.8 (As according to 11 different magazine test drives, with conditions ranging from 45mph "hypermiling", to 80mph interstate traffic, to flogging it through mountain twisties.)

Therefore, the average American commuter will not exceed the Volt's average EV range during the average commute over a year.

Will they use gas on weekends? Likely. Will they go longer trips? Likely. Will they come across a not-average commute that makes them go into PHEV mode? Likely.

If they make a lot of trips, or come across a lot of times they're in PHEV mode, then the PHEV Prius is better for them.

However, based on the statistical averages, my statement is still true:

The average commuter will never leave EV mode on their commute in a Volt, only using one tank per year to keep it from going stale.
The average commuter will use 96 gallons of gasoline per year on their commute with a PHEV Prius.

The numbers I quoted were based on averages, and therefore give an average experience.

However, the numbers don't represent all possible variables, just the average.

Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!
 

OH no! How un PC of them. Quick, somebody call the green police.
https://theinspirationroom.com/daily/...een-police.jpg

Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!
 

Well averages are useless then because "on average" I drive 8 miles a day but when you actually look at my driving habits, on the days I do drive, I drive around 40 miles for a single trip. Now of course not everyone is like me, but if people work 5 days a week and you're averaging out their driving over the course of a year (taking the number of miles they drive and divide by 365), then the numbers will look like they work better than they actually will be. I have been reading some of these articles that are reviewing the Volt and all of them seem to be testing the range during optimal ambient temperatures.

Keep in mind that "Averaging" doesn't work like you think it does because averaging the fuel usage and henceforth getting the mpg of a Prius or any other vehicle is very different than averaging the the energy and fuel usage and getting the MPG of a Volt. If you exceed the electric range for a day, you're going to use more fuel. Statistically speaking, based STRICTLY upon the numbers given, the majority of people won't use any gasoline besides the 10 gallons. However, these statistics are useless and the numbers that have been given I don't feel accurately represents the entire picture. Worst of all, people who drive the volt and claim they got 60mpg or 120mpg would be thinking they're that much more green than a Prius when in reality they're no better or are actually worse given the electrical generation methods.

[[Math begins!!]]
On "average" people now drive 15K miles a year.. That works perfectly with the volt's stupid "40 mile range" number. Since 40 miles X 365=14,600.. However, people don't drive 40 miles, EVERY SINGLE DAY OF THE YEAR. People don't commute EVERY DAY. Assuming people commute 5 days of the year and mostly don't drive on the weekends (maybe 10 miles a day for weekends), we can take (104*10)=1040. 15000-1040=13960. But then people usually have 2 weeks paid vacation, so you should subtract two weeks worth of commuting and instead replace it with an average of something like 10 miles per day. 10(days)*10(miles)=100(miles). 13,960-100=13860. After all that, ON AVERAGE, you probably drive 13,860 miles for commuting (probably even less b/c people DO go on trips). (Year - weekend/vacation days=commuting days) (365-114=251) commuting days.. 13860miles/251days=55.22 average miles PER Commuting day.. (This means this driver is guaranteed to burn gasoline every day they commute) But the volt's Electric range isn't always 40 miles, sometimes it's less, like say 25-35. To be generous, I'll AVERAGE the winter pure electric commute to be 30 miles per day (We haven't gotten to the gasoline part yet!). For 70 commute days in winter, 70*30=210 miles of EV commute in winter. The rest of the year, the electric commute should be 35-45, so I'll average the pure electric commute to be 40 miles.. For 181 commute days the rest of the year, 181*40=7,240mi of pure EV commute.
Total mileage for yr=15,000, Total commute mileage=13,860, Total Vacation/weekend mileage=1,140, Total commute days=251, Total winter days=70, Total commute days for the rest of the year :181=(251-70), Pure electric mileage per commute day for rest of year=40mi, Pure electric mileage per commute day for winter=30mi.

So, for the weekend and holiday, we’ll assume it’s all electric even though people usually go on vacations far away…so I’m giving you a “freebie” for this one.
Total pure Electric mileage=9,340mi (Winter commute: 2,100mi=70*30), (Summer Commute: 7,240mi=40*181), Weekend/Vacation: 1,140mi (already established this would be all electric)
Total gasoline mileage=4,520mi (Yearly commute mileage – EV commute mileage = Gasoline commute mileage) (13,860-9,340=4,520)

Since I’ve concluded the commute mileage is around 55.22 per day, for the summer I subtract 40 from this number and for winter I subtract 30 from this number in order to get the “gasoline mileage” (miles covered using gasoline).
(55.21-30=25.21), (55.21-40=15.21). (70 days of winter commute * 25.22 = 1765.4mi) (181 days rest of the year commute * 15.22 = 2754.82mi)


[[Math Ends]]

Possible Winter gasoline consumption levels:
At a GENEROUS 50mpg, over 1765.4mi (winter), the vehicle will have burned 35.31g of gasoline.
At a conservative 40mpg, over 1765.4mi (winter), the vehicle will have burned 44.14g of gasoline.
At a realistic 35mpg, over 1765.4mi (this is after a cold winter), the vehicle will have burned 50.44g of gasoline.

Possible Summer gasoline consumption levels:
At a GENEROUS 50mpg, over 2754.82m (rest of year), the vehicle will have burned 55.1g of gasoline.
At a conservative 40mpg, over 2754.82m (rest of year), the vehicle will have burned 68.87g of gasoline.
At a realistic 35mpg, over 2754.82m (you do have a lead foot after all), the vehicle will have burned 78.71g of gasoline.

So, over the course of the year, if you average 50mpg when you’re in charge sustained mode, you’ll have burned 90.41g of gasoline. If you average 40mpg when you’re in charge sustained mode, you’ll have burned 113.01g of gasoline. Finally, if you average 35mpg when you’re in charge sustained mode, you’ll have burned 129.15g of gasoline.

Using the retard math brought to you by General Motors thanks to not factoring in the electrical grid usage to charge the vehicle; when you burn “only” 129.15g of gasoline over 15K miles, you’ll average 116.144mpg (35mpg avg when on gasoline), 132.73mpg if you burned “only” 113.01g of gasoline (40mpg avg when on gasoline), and 165.91mpg if you burned “only” 90.41g of gasoline (50mpg avg when on gasoline).

But like I said, it’s retard math because it doesn’t factor in the usage of the grid. A purely gasoline vehicle getting 100mpg would be far more amazing than the Volt getting 165.91mpg because the energy used to charge the battery isn’t free and has a significant environmental cost to it.

If you drive a Prius that averages 45-55mpg over 15K miles, it will burn between 333.33g - 272.72g of gasoline vs. the Volt burning 90.41g-129.15g of gasoline. So, if you get the Volt and you consider yourself "average", then no, you won't be burning "only 10g of gasoline" but something more like the figures I posted above..at the very least!

So, is a vehicle that has a similar or worse environmental footprint than the Prius, is much more expensive, has a shorter warranty, and is unproven worth the price you pay just so that it can burn 1/3 less gasoline but at the cost of another fuel source instead? I mean my figures didn't even take into account the fact that within that 15K mile window, maybe 1000-3000 of those miles are vacation miles, in that case means it's all gasoline all the way which could increase the fuel burned from 20g (best case scenario) to 85.5g (worst case scenario). (Assumes gasoline average range of 50mpg - 35mpg)

Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!
 

Last time I checked, "EV" vehicles don't use gasoline.. Yet everyone defending this vehicle insist it's an EV when it's really a Plug-in hybrid.

Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!
 

The problem your calculations is that you started with a large average, and made up numbers as to how to break it down. Your calculations have concluded that the average commute is 55 miles?

You are disregarding the fact that the average commute is 33 miles per day.

It's not conjecture, it's not guessing, that's not calculations based on average driver miles.

According to the US Census, the average daily commute is 26 minutes each way, covering about 16.5 miles.

Yes, the average driver drives 15k a year, but only 33 miles per day on his commute. Your calculations have no basis but the 15k a year driven by the average person. There is already an established average daily commute, so you have to work that into your calculations, rather than picking numbers out of thin air to fit with your calculations.

Due to the fact that early in your calculations you come to a falsehood, the rest of the calculations that you extrapolated from the falsehood are inherently false, and therefore are to be disregarded.

33 miles per day, 5 days a week 50 weeks per year, assuming 2 weeks paid vacation.
Only 8250 miles per year of commuting.
Which means the average person drives 6750 miles NOT commuting.

And it's how the average person drives those 6750 miles as to whether he should have a PHEV Prius or a Volt. If those miles are short trips each weekend? The Volt would be better. If those miles are all from one big vacation? The Prius would be better. If they're somewhere in between? Well, the individual driver needs to look at their driving habits to see which vehicle they would be best served by.

But, as I have said, the Prius will use 10 times the gasoline of the Volt in the average yearly commute.


Yes, NOBODY IN THE WORLD IS AVERAGE! Nobody in the world will drive the Volt and actually use 0 gallons. As an individual driver, you need to analyze your own driving patterns to see what you'll be best served by.



Case Study:
My grandmother-in-law (Is that the proper term?) has not driven farther than 20 miles from her home in years. She goes to bridge club, she goes home, she goes to the supermarket, she goes home, she goes to the shooting range, she goes home. There are a few other places that she goes, but it's always "Drive out, drive home".

My father in law has been trying to talk her into getting an Electric car when one comes available.

She adamantly refuses to, even though the electric car would suit her brilliantly. She refuses to on the basis of "What if I need to take a long trip?" Despite the fact that she hasn't gone more than 20 miles from her home in years. She simply doesn't take long trips. But "What if she needs to?"

Well, if she has the Volt, she'd have an Electric Car that would be ideal for her needs, using a pittance of gas if any at all. And that glaring "What if I need to take a long trip?" Well, if she does, she'll have a car that gets 35mpg on that trip.

THAT is why they made the Volt.

People who would be best served by an EV, but are too scared to get one.

THAT is why I compare the Volt not to a PHEV, but to an EV that can go the distance if needed. Because that is who they're trying to sell to, that is who their customers are. Not people who would be best served by a true PHEV.

Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!
 

Let me place in a separate post that which you seem to be missing in every single post I've made.



I am not saying that the Volt is inherently better than the PHEV Prius.

I am saying and I have said again and again:

If your commute is average, or shorter than average, and you don't make many long trips, then you would likely be best getting an EV.

If you would be best served by an EV and want one, but either are scared of getting stranded, or don't want to deal with the hassle of a second car or renting a car for the occasional long trip, then the Volt is the car for you.

Because if you fit the criteria, you are the reason the Volt was made.


(And you know what? A lot of Americans fit that Criteria. Which is why they made the Volt)

Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!
 

Sorry, but the average commute is NOT 33 miles or 12K miles a year anymore, but more like 15K miles a year or 41 miles per day. I think you failed to see the significance of the statistic of 33 miles = 12K miles per year and 41 miles = 15K miles per year. I've often heard that on the east coast people drive 12K miles per year while on the west coast it's more like 15K miles per year. So, please show me where the official statistic shows a break down of the annual miles traveled, with the 33 miles per day being strictly for commuting for work and is not just "the average" miles traveled as a whole.

That's a US Census statistic, not an NHTSA statistic. That "average" includes people who walk to work and people who commute via public transportation; we're talking strictly cars. Anyway it would have been a good statistical point if it was actually relevant.

You've yet to prove that.. All I'm seeing is the number of miles people drive per year divided by the number of days in the year. 33 miles per day perfectly aligns with 12K miles a year (a common statistic) and 40 miles per day aligns pretty close to 15K miles a year.


Just like you thought you couldn't respond to my post because of it being based upon "falsehoods" neither can I of yours.

quickest statistic that I could find:
https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policyinform...023/fig4_4.cfm
https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policyinform...ges/fig-44.jpg



Highway statistics archive page:
https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policy/ohpi/hss/hsspubsarc.cfm

Gotta keep that URL for future reference...

Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!
 

Yeah well you know? Having a corolla is perfect for the average family... Why? Because they have 2.4 kids! The rear middle seat is the perfect for that 4/10ths of a child!

Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!
 

Wait, what? That is... Wow. That's the best you could come up with to argue my core point?

Heck, I didn't even say "The average commuter" in that post, I said "If your commute is average, or shorter than average." Big difference.

That, and you're absolutely refusing to touch the argument that for somebody who has an average commute, or less, and who would likely be served best by an EV, but have the common fear that many Americans have (being stranded by your EV, or needing to take a long trip), then the Volt is the car to assuage those fears, and still have the advantages of an EV.

For the Average commute of 33 miles, or people who have a commute shorter than average, the Volt behaves like an EV. HOWEVER the Volt will never leave you stranded due to a low battery, and the Volt is capable of getting very good MPG (when you compare it to other mid-size cars, not other hybrids.) when the battery runs dry. 36 mpg is nothing to scoff at when most mid size cars get 30mpg.

THAT is my core argument. THAT is why the Volt is a good car.

As I have said, consider your own driving habits. If you'd regularly be in "Range extending mode" with your Volt, you'd likely be better with a Prius. But for my Grandmother in law, the Volt is ideal. For many other Americans, the Volt is ideal.

And for what the Volt is made to be, an EV that is capable of going past the EV range if needed, it is a brilliant car.
Could it be better? Of course, but it's already revolutionary.


If you reply with inane nonsense again, or if you fail to intelligently rebut my main point, I'll not be replying. The argument is becoming circular, with little new and intelligent information being brought forth from either side. I'm tired of repeating myself, and I do not appreciate idiocy trying to make me look foolish.

If no intelligent rebuttal of my core point is had, Good day.

Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!
 

The Volt is as much of a "midsize car" as the Prius is.. This isn't 36mpg on a purely gasoline powered vehicle, but on a plug-in hybrid! 36mpg is something to scoff at when you're paying a huge premium to "be green" when you're not and are just pissing your money away. Anyway, you seem to be missing my point, which is, "what's the average commute"? You say 33miles, so does GM, based upon what statistic? The 12K miles per year? Do you not understand where they came up with this number? Do you even understand that the 15K miles per person per year number is really just the total VMT divided by the number of licensed drivers and or vehicles? I mean talk about inferring data, you went as far as to take the 33 mille commute, multiply it by 5 days of the week and 50 weeks in the year when you didn't even know the origin of that "33 mile commute". What we need instead is a weighted average yet none of these statistics do that because that would be too onerous and the accuracy of it could be called into question due to the interviewing of different demographics..

You fail to see the gravity of the issue at hand. The "average" commute could be 15K miles per year but this is an AVERAGE. Meaning that you could have 2 drivers that drive 25K miles per year and 2 drivers that drive 5K miles per year, the AVERAGE is 15K miles! The Volt may in fact be for the "average driver" but this driver isn't as pervasive as it would appear thanks to the statistical averaging of these data points.

Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!
 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plugin_...#Disadvantages

https://img408.imageshack.us/img408/8...gincompare.png

that's straight from wikipedia...

alright, if you don't see the significance of this, I'll break it down for you. Do you see where it says "annual gasoline savings compared to a HEV"? Do you see where it has a (2) next to it which leads to the line "(2) Assuming 15,000 miles per year? Alright so below the part about annual gasoline savings compared to an HEV, see where it says 200 gallons of savings? How many gallons of gasoline does a Prius which gets 50mpg use over the course of 15K miles? I posted this earlier in the thread and the answer was 300 gallons. So, if the Volt is "saving" 200 gallons of gasoline compared to an HEV, yet it takes 300 gallons of gasoline in order to drive 15K with an HEV vehicle, then that would mean only one thing! That is the Volt is using around 100 gallons per 15K miles per year! Wow, what a coincidence!? I had made those EXACT estimations on my own!

So, my point was that the point about the "average" person would use almost no gasoline is false as illustrated by not only the wiki article but also by my independent calculations.

So, as I was saying... Is the Premium of the Volt really worth it over that of a vanilla Prius and or the Plug-in Prius? I'm saying it's not and I gave very explicit reasons as to why I'm saying it's not. I understand your point is that people should buy the vehicle based upon their needs but a lot of people don't do this and assume the statistics apply to them when it's in their favor and don't apply to them when it's not in their favor. They see that the vehicle is great for the "average commuter" and that's enough for them, even if the term "average commuter" is so poorly calculated and determined, it's laughable.

Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!
 

I answer because it was an intelligent response, even if you still refuse to confront my main point.

That is my point.

If you are at average, or below average commute distance, then the Volt is ideal. For your commute. Those 2 5k a year drivers would very likely be an ideal customer for the Volt, and those 2 25k a year drivers would likely be an ideal customer for the PHEV Prius. Never once did I say the Volt was ideal for everyone, due to some fallacy that if the average person is X then that means every person is X.
I know what average is, and I know that nobody is truly average. But there are usually just as many people above average as below, becoming more true the larger the sample group. And the Volt is good for those who are average or below average distance drivers. It is not good for those who are above average distance drivers. I never claimed it was.


And yet, you still refuse to confront my main point:



We've have said all that really can be said about the "average commute" tripe. We've both dissolved into repeating ourselves in different ways about that argument.

I still stand that the Volt is the ideal car for people like my wife's grandmother, who would be best served by an EV, but refuse to get one due to fears of range.

Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!
 

Well, for your wife's mother, it would be cheaper just to get a dedicated electric vehicle and then have a gasoline vehicle and or borrow one for those "longer trips".
https://www.dailytech.com/Nissan+Cons...ticle19855.htm

Pretty much would solve that dilemma while being much cheaper than the Volt.

Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!
 

My wife's grandmother absolutely refuses to get an electric vehicle on fear of getting stranded, and because she doesn't like borrowing from other people, and she doesn't want to either pay the costs of an extra car, or the deal with the fuss of rental. Believe me, my father in law has tried to convince her.

But you know what? Silly as her reasoning may be, she is not unique.

And thank you for linking that article. That article proves that it is a pervasive enough problem that Nissan is considering starting a free rental program. If they're willing to spend that much money to overcome an illogical fear that is keeping people from buying EVs? It is obviously a common enough fear that it is keeping enough people from buying Leafs that they would profit from the additional sales, despite the additional cost of maintaining a rental fleet that they will not be able to make a dime off of.

Many Americans who would be best served by an EV refuse to get one based primarily on fear of getting stranded, and secondly on worries of what to do on an occasional long trip.

Is it logical for them to fear like that? No. But they do. Many people do. And the Volt is the answer to the fear. Because THAT is why the Volt was made the way it was. An answer to the fears, trepidations, and negative aspects of an EV, while maintaining all of the benefits, even if to a lesser degree than a dedicated EV.

Yes, looking at it as an EV, it is mediocre EV at best.
Looking at it as a PHEV? It is a mediocre PHEV at best.

However, it is a far better distance vehicle than an EV could ever be.
Also, it is a far better short commute vehicle than any other PHEV.

Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!
 

This isn't really a response to anything except as a confirmation of what I've believed all along:
https://www8.nationalacademies.org/on...RecordID=12826

I think PHEV are fine but at the moment the batteries are too expensive to make them have an effective range so in the mean time, I feel a PHEV with a small battery used in "mixed mode" would be an ideal tradeoff. Mixed mode is where the car would run off the batteries in low speed city driving but when cruising on the highway, the engine comes on and does the majority of the work, then when you get off the highway, the car goes back into electric mode. Essentially trying to avoid using the engine to charge the battery like in a conventional hybrid but would still be using EV mode when it's most beneficial. No point in quickly draining the battery by driving on the highway when the most efficient and cost effective usage of that energy is for when you drive at low speeds. (Wiki article that confirmed/inspired this point of view)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PHEV#Modes_of_operation
-see mixed mode

Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!
 

Beyond the intial excitement, both the Volt and Leaf are probably going to be flops like the Aztec and Edsel were.

Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!
 

Well, if that's true, then they'll be dirt cheap in a few years. Even an aged one with reduced electric range will do fine for my 3 mile commute.

Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!
 

Yeah, I suppose they will sell at a big discount if they fail to gather sales.

I really don't care for either car. The Volt is too expensive and the Leaf probably will not make it all the way on my 70 mile roundtrip each day in the cold, snowy winters or hot, sunny summers to come.

Also, owning the Leaf is risky if you live where the power goes out on occasion. What do you tell your boss - I can't make it in to work today because I couldn't charge up my car? That is going to happen hundreds if not thousands of times. And since electricity demand is typically lower at night, the utilities choose this time to do maintenance on their power generating equipment. Guess what? More demand at night may lead to inadequate maintenance and power outages not related to weather.

The time will come for BEV's and BEV's with extended range - they're just not ready for prime time.

They will have their day in the sun when they cost the same or less than a comparable gasoline car and the cost to operate them - electricity, maintenance, etc is much lower than dinoburners can match.

Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!
 

Americans or perhaps motorists everywhere do NOT use cold hard logic when making their vehicle selections. It is more about perceived things like ego stroking, conforming to the herd, family traditions, keeping up with the Joneses, having something to show off in at church, and as noted by biff, bringing a Sherman tank to a knife fight i.e. grandma's range anxiety (we see the same thing with the popularity of pickup and suv commuters- "being prepared" for the hauling/towing/crashing eventuality that rarely if ever comes). People have proven time and time again to be willing to pay HUUUGE premiums to have excess capability that may never be utilized.

I'm quite certain that GM has access to accurate vehicle use pattern numbers and more importantly, the psychology of the consumer, and they have the brains to evaluate that info, to come up with the most logical and widely applicable technical solution. I'd say the math and the psych points to Volt as being a good solution for many, but of course not all motorists, today.

That said, I'm not in the market for a Volt (or any other hybrid or EV) as my usage patterns don't fit that mold, and I'm not in the market for ANY $40k vehicle no matter how perfect it may be for me. I'm not going to pee all over Volt because of that.