Cheap PWM
 

You can find cheap PWM'S on ebay.
Search hho and you will find all kinds for around $30.00 and up.
You can get them from 15 amps all the way to 100 amps.

Hope this helps,
Aquatron

From what I read in this thread below, JeepForum.com has found that HHO was only working because it was converting the available energy in the vehicle's battery to HHO. Once the battery ran low, the alternator was causing the whole system to reach an equilibrium. Even worse, the battery would sit uncharged and sulfate reducing its lifespan.

A complete scientific discussion can also be found at this link. They explain how HHO CANNOT SOLVE OUR MPG PROBLEMS!

https://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showt...566149&page=24

Power
 

That is true, and false at the same time.

You know how you can put in subs and upgrade your system in the car?

That is due to the leftover power your alternator makes.

Now, they were producing too much Hydrogen for what they wanted. Your car produces left over energy that just gets wasted. You should know they aren't going to create just enough energy where if you add anything such as a light, it is going to drain your battery.

No, Cars have tons of leftover energy and you got to experiment on how much to use. Once you use to much, you can't go any further creating they hydrogen.


Now, An idea would be to take a bunch of batterys from a hybrid car and hook your HHO up and make it so it is able to plug in every night. Make it out of a 5 gallong bucket, or a few of them, and call it good.

Should be able to create a cell so powerful it would lean out most of the gas. The goal is 20+ liters per minute. And 6 of these batterys should be able to run it for the day. I think, but probably wrong.


Just an idea.







Now, for the PWM. I dont want a cheap one. I dont even care if it is a pwm man.

now, ccpwms are way better, you can turn the pot to 25 amps. and you never have to adjust it as it adjusts itself autmaticly to stay on 25 AMPS at all times.

Or turn it to 20, or turn it to 80.

YOu get the idea.

That is what I want to do with my unit.

where are people getting this idea of "leftover energy" in the alternator?

using the sub woofer theory. I have been to shcool for electronics and currently work in a design center that designs PAs for wireless applications. when in high school and college, I was really into car audio (I was pushing about 125dB in a geo metro) if I were idling and the bass would drop and hold for a relatively long amount of time, it would choke the car completely off. actually what would happen is the engine would start to sputter until the voltage on the system would drop so low that the radio would cut off. I impressed many people with this setup. it was a 3-cyl metro but that is my point.

I run my car right now on engine load. that is how I get my good mileage (relatively speaking). I do not have a large stereo currently so I can't do this test even though I know how it will end up. sit at idle with the scangauge and see what your engine load is, then crank up the tunes and watch the number rise. the higher the engine load, the more gas you are using.

I have already seen this with headlights. if I am idling and I turn on my headlights, my engine load goes up around 3 percent. (from 26 percent to 29 percent)

no free power. power produced by gasoline through the alternator. 20 amps of power isn't free it has to come from somewhere.

o2 sensor
 

Anyone here know if i have a single or dual o2 sensor?

I have a 1996 Honda civic Ex 1.6L engine.

I have no idea as I bought a single Map enhancer and something is telling me I should of done dual.

If this car has dual, i am going to be so peved.

Thanks, Will

No such thing as spare power from your alt.
The more amps you use, the more load you put on the alt.
That's why the things are rated.
If you use more than its rated, you will open up the windings.
There is NOT extra power sitting in your alternator!!!

Try buying a pwm from ebay if you need one, there's plenty to choose from.

Anyone who thinks alternator output is free, should stop sending their checks to the electric company and see how long their power stays on.

regards
gary

retarded?
 

are you guys seriouse. you think your alternator only produces enough electricity as needed?


did you know when you turn your stero up, you are using more electricity!

When you role down your windows, you are using more electricity.

When you turn your headlights on, you are using more electricity.


Did you know video game consoles consume more electricty then needed?


Explain how you add subs and an amp in the car ???

you are just channeling left over electricity. I think you actually need to go to college, as I been talking to my dad who is a master electrician and is just laughing at you guys.

Everything has extra electricity.

Check your fuse box in your home. you will have one breaker rated at 30 AMPS, 10 AMPS, 20 AMPS and etc, (just examples) And you never use the full amont, otherwise you trip the breaker.


Same principals apply for autos too.

The output is not free, you are only using the left over power the alternator creates. That is the purpose behind the project. You can create hydrogen on just 3 AMPS from 12v. That is what your autos cd players are usually rated at.


Running things with not one drop of extra power can cause a lot of electrical problems.

If the alternator didn't produce extra electricity, how do you think it charges the battery in the car when you leave your lights on. You drive around, and it charges it up. It is charging from all the leftover electricty the alternator produces.

You are correct to a point. You are making your alternator work harder. Except, I bought something that hooks up to the alternat that you get an extra 30 AMPS out of that allows you to use the left over electric your alternator produces,.

Now it doesn't just suck up 30 extra amps, at time your alternator has to work harder, but just not as hard.

That is the purpose behind it. I am actually working on a plug in water electric car. it will consume of a trunk, and 6 batterys from hybrid cars.

30 gallon tank in the trunk, I am hoping to produce enough hydrogen to run a car with no gas at all. I think you gotta use gas to start the vechile, but afer that the hydrogen will kick in and lean the vechile out.

Of course, it is my goal to make it last for 12 hours before having to plug in the batterys.

There is no leftover, the alternator responds to the total demands and maintains a full charge in the battery. Any more and the battery is damaged by an overcharge.

A liter of HHO contains only 11% hydrogen FUEL, which is the source of all the energy. That enough heat energy to light two matches. One 336th of the fuel the engine needs to propel the car.

Oxygen contains no energy.

regards
gary

You will need hundreds of liters of HHO a minute to run your engine.

regards
gary

electrical engineering over here

you say you have talked to your dad about it. where do you live so I make sure that you dad doesn't wire up my house. I work with individuals that have graduated from NC STATE, A+T UNIVERSITY, UNIVERSITY of COLORADO. these people have masters degrees and a few doctorate degrees around here.

we all seem to think that the alternator will run on less load if you have less current draw on it. that inturn causes less load on the pulley and demeands less gas from the engine to burn. looking at it from the reverse direction, any electrical draw that you put on the alternator will cause it to demand more energy to turn the alternator and cause more of a load on the engine.

do some research, get a scangauge, buy a book on electronics, it isn't hard to figure this one out.

so in the case you were talking about with your dad, I guess it doesn't matter if all the lights are cut off in the house or in the fall and spring when you don't use the airconditioner or heater, it will always cost the same on your electric bill. why does mine fluctuate? I am only using LEFT OVER power there right? If that were the case, we would all have issue with the power company because my service drop is 200 amps and so is my neighbors and his bill is different than mine.

the circuit breakers that you are talking about are protection devices so you don't burn up the wires and overload the circuit. just protection, that is why they are there.

if you don't understand this simple concept of "no free lunch" then good luck to you in your HHO endavor, you are going to need it.

side note: I don't like throwing around credentials but in this situation I felt it was necessary to get the point across that I wasn't a completely incompetent and ignorant individual but actually had experience and higher education to back up my claims. I am not boasting about what I do or what I have done in the past.

You need 10,775 liters of HHO to equal the British Thermal Units of energy in one gallon of gasoline. That will get you 55 miles in my car. I certainly dont want to drag a blimp behind me for a fuel source, the Aero sucks.

Thats 179 liters a minute. It would require you to electrolyze tens, and maybe hundrreds of gallons of water to produce that HHO, since water is only 11% hydrogen, and hydrogen is much lighter than gasoline. Somewhere close to 50+ gallons of water to produce 1 gallon equivalent of fuel (compared to gasoline).

Beef I don't know why we are wasting our time trying to educate those that apparently aren't interested in learning what the average 5th grader already knows.

Just in case the reader can't do a simple internet search, BTU energy in a liter of HHO is the same as lighting 11 wooden matches. That might move your car a few feet at 60 MPH.

If you choose to ignore simple grade school physics, then your wallet will be a lot lighter, and you will end up with a very expensive lesson, that you could learn in minutes.


regards
gary

ride,

I know, that statement about how we ALL needed to go to college just got under my skin.

I look at it this way. if everyone else in the world is wrong but me and my dad, maybe I need to re-evaluate what I think is right and wrong.

but that is just me

6 hybrid batteries! That's 30 grand new, and at least 10 used.

If you are going to spend that kind of money, why not just make the car electric.

You might also want to consider upgrading your household to a 1000 amp service to charge all of those batteries.


To Beef, I wouldn't worry about all those other people being right. Still haven't seen a gaslog attributing ANY significant mileage improvement to HHO.

Especially when it was a member who had maximized every other means of mileage improvement and, prior to the HHO installation, had achieved a significant improvement over the EPA ratings for his-her vehicle.

regards
gary

about everyeone else being right, I was talking about billman and his dad laughing at all of us.

I gotta stay away from the HHO forum

Again, I understand completely that your alternator works harder to run more things hooked up to it.

But it also produces wasted electricity as well.


Now, I have no idea how many liters per minute you need to put out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydEkV-E0mP8

in this link you can see this is a mythbusters HHO explained, watch the end.

They are only seeing if you can get a car to run on pure hydrogen, and they did.

And they ddi that just on one tank of hydrogen. Thatis not putting out hundreds of Liters per minute, but I would like to know the output of that tank.

Just cracking the valve open on a pressurised tank like that you've gonna get at least 5 cfm which is approx 150 lpm.

The only wasted electricity an alternator makes is that which you use to blow your eardrums out with the stereo, or have the HVAC on too high.

This idea that hydrogen in water is only 11.7 percent is not entirely true.
That 11.7 percent is by weight and not volume, everyone hopefully knows that hydrogen is the lightest gas on earth and that oxygen is one of the heaviest gases by weight.
One drop of water contains 1.7 QUADRILLION molecules of H2O.
That makes 3.4 quadrillion atoms of hydrogen and 1.7 quadrillion atoms of oxygen.
Thats 3,400,000,000,000,000 atoms hydrogen by volume

Actually, the AC uses pretty much the same amount of electrical power no matter what setting you have it on.

On lower fan settings energy is just converted to heat through resistors instead of being used to force air to your face. If they used PWM for the blower that'd be different.

If you mean wasted electrical energy as in what's lost converting from 80v 3-phase AC to 14v DC good luck avoiding that... If I'm not mistaken the regulators in our cars are of the switching type and you can't get much more efficient than that in such a small space. I suppose you could externally regulate it but that requires actual knowledge of what you are doing.

Yeah, I really meant having it on at all when you don't need it, then modified it to high, I think some new cars actually modulate power to the motor.

I guess you could use some of the newer Schottky diodes or a Mosfet based rectifier https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronous_rectification

But that seems hardly worth the expense when the alternator itself is only around 60% efficient and could be improved.

I wonder if a permanent magnet alternator could be more efficient. That should help by getting rid of the commutation losses associated with the traditional design.

But then it's "on" all the time, instead of having the field current modulated by the ECU.

Not necessarily. The electrical load itself would be wholly responsible for the physical load required. Like using a small hobby dc motor as a generator. As electrical demand increases so does the amount of power required to keep a specific RPM. Additionally, more shaft speed is required as load increases if you want to keep the same voltage output.

Voltage drop as load increases has to be the main reason behind not doing it, that and permanent magnets get weaker over time. Without field modulation you've got no control over voltage(in an automotive environment you won't normally regulate engine speed to control voltage) outside of regulating whatever the generator can give you.

You could generate a lot more power from an alternator with permanent magnets but it would require a more expensive regulator handling the output current instead of the 2-5 amps of rotor current the standard alternator deals with. With my scooter "eCycle" motors I can get 200 amps at 90% efficiency and up to 60+ volts which could be regulated down to 800 amps at 15 volts if I had a controller that could handle that much current.

More truth on HHO
 

Ok, I have done allot of research on HHO the past 6 months or so and here are a few things i've learned.

Carburated cars are the easiest to adjust to HHO just adjust the ignition timing with the distributor and reduce the jet size on the carb.

EFI cars up to 1995 can be adjusted by resetting the ecu with HHO running, just disconnect the battery and reattach it after 10 min. then start the vehicle with the HHO. Some vehicles will still richen the mixture even after you reset the ecu. At that point you need a MAP/MAF enhancer which allows you to lean out the mixture as you wish by changing the MAP/MAF signal before it gets to the ECU.

All cars 1996 and newer (OBD II EFI) rely on the O2 sensors for adjusting the Air/Fuel mixture. Some 1996 to 1999 Vehicles may see an improvement by resetting the ECU. If no milage increase is noticed the vehicle will most likely require an EFIE or Electronic Fuel Injection Enhancer to change and adjust the signal sent from the upstream O2 sensors to ECU.

As far as this takl of "It take more electricity to produce HHO than you get from burning it" is both true and false.

Electrolising water to produce HHO also creates Heat and its product water vapour which are not HHO and are basically wasted, therefore you are not getting back the same amount of energy you put in.

But,
Hydrogen gas (H2) has approx. 3 times the btu potential as gasoline, when mixed with Oxigen gas (O2) it burns almost instantaniously and completely producing only water. HHO burns completely at A/F ratios between 8:1 and 70:1 which is why it is effective on both gasoline and diesel.

When HHO is fed into the intake of the engine it is being used more like an additive, effectively increasing the efficiency of the stratisfied gasoline and air that its mixed with. The more complete burn slowly cleans the engine and keeps it cool.

Bottom line: Mixing HHO with the air allows you to remove some fuel being injected without side effects of leaning out the mixture too much and causing heat problems (overheating causing engine damage).

Its all about leaning out the A/F ratio

Hmm.

Why do you need to rejet the carb? It can't inject more fuel because it's compensating and I was under the impression that the ECU enriched the mixture and that is what people are fighting.

Did you advance or retard timing?

Wouldn't a more complete burn mean more heat is readily available for the engine to absorb? How does that make it run cooler?

Just a couple of notes:

HHO doesn't care what AFR you are running in the engine. HHO is a stoich mixture in and of its own.

Leaning out an engine some isn't what causes engine damage. Leaning out an engine to the point of missfire does because the gasses are still burning when the valve opens and it gets fire roasted.

Good points
 

The ECU is the biggest problem in fuel economy, its job is to pump enough fuel into the engine so that no matter what situation the engine is getting more fuel than it needs so some is left over to feed the burn in the catalytic convertor.

It always adds more fuel.

So what you need to do to fix that is change the MAP/MAF and/or O2 sensor signals going to the computer. You usually get a box with some adjustment built in so you can switch from stock to enhanced and city or highway mixture settings.

From what ive been reading you would usually retard the timing (closer to TDC) because the HHO will increases the flame speed of combustion. The combustion on power stroke is finished quicker and therefore has enough time to burn complete and clean.

As far as the heat situation that usually depends on how lean you're running the car and how much gas you're producing. The water4gas method or some SS wire in a penutbutter jar will not produce enough HHO for much increase. Usually 1 LPM is the minimum to really confirm the effects. Some cooling also comes from the excess water vapor just like water injection. The water vapor and HHO keep the combustion fairly cool to the point you lean the mixture too much.

Map Enhancer
 

Ok, I have a 1996 Honda Civic EX.

I dont know if I need an EFIE for any impovements?


But I do need to know the colored wire to hook it up too.

Thanks, and yes, I understand how to test for it. But I will screw things up.

So what color wire am I looking to cut?

Thanks Will

for a '96 civic EX
 

If you're looking to do some HHO tinkering an EFIE is the single most important piece besides the HHO generator for a '96 and up vehicle.
I just ordered a dual EFIE and 75A PWM in the same pc board from ebay for $130, just make sure they say its the upgraded version of Zerofossilfuels design. (look up Zerofossilfuel on Youtube for tons of HHO info).
I Looked on shopkey and the primary O2 sensor (the one you hook up to the EFIE), has 4 wires BLK/WHT, BLK/YEL, WHT and GRN/BLK. I think the sensor wire is the BLK/WHT because its the only one that goes to the ECU.

Why 96 and newer? OBD1 ECUs don't have the same 'problems'?

Map Die
 

Thanks, I meant the Map Ehancer and I belive for my car it is the red/green wire.

Now, the problem I am having is when I hook the Map enhancer up, I start the car up and it slowly dies in like 10 seconds. iThat is on factory, when I turn it to enhanced, it does it in about 5 seconds and adjusting the nobs make no difference.

Is it not the signal wire I want to miss with but the power wire instead?

I know I have it hooked up right to the signal wire, I checked it 6x to be sure.

https://powweb.hondahookup.com/manual...e%20manual.PDF

That should be the manual for my 1996 Honda Civic EX Coup. The colors of the wires are teh same, but in different spots on my Map sensor in the car.

Why is my car dieing when I hook the Map Enhancer up? but when I take it off, it goes fine.

Thanks Will

How is the MAP enhancer hooked up to power? Just coz if it's hooked up to a source that only works when the engine is running then your ECU may be having issues getting a baro reading at key-on before you start it.

So what does that mean? Sorry, but I think you are correct on that.

So what do I do to fix this problem?

Sorry, I am just so confused and want to get this working. Planning on taking a test drive this weekend, So what Can I do?

Thank you.

And yes, I have checked time and time again, the Map Enhancer is hooked up to the correct wires, and it is the correct way.

Thanks,
Will

Sorry

It is hooked up on the green/red wire.

I have the black grounded. I have the one wire connected to the ECU as instructions show, and the other one going to the Map Sensor.

So I am very lost :(

If talking on the phone would help, I will PM my number to you or whomever else to call me or you can PM me your number for me to call you.

Thanks, I am just frusted with this part.

Help?
 

Can anyone help me out?

When you get in the car and move the key to or through the run position, the ECU will read the MAP sensor to callibrate itself with the current atmospheric pressure, a barometer, or "baro" reading. If your MAP enhancer is not powered at this point in time, the ECU may be unable to get a sensible reading.

Therefore, make sure that power is supplied to the MAP enhancer when the key is in the run position without the engine running, OR, rig a switch to bring it into circuit only after the engine is running.

Awesome Thank you
 

Awesome thank you!

Now I got it hooked up an check engine light dont come on
When i turn the nob all the way down, it wants to kill the car.

However, when I turn it to whatever else, it seems like it is making no difference.
So where do I set this at with a 1.6L engine?

Thanks. Will

Find a big hill, long steady grade, that takes a fair amount of throttle below 2000 rpm to drive up it at a sensible speed and tweak it so it's just off chugging. Run a few tanks through, see if there's any improvement in mileage, if not ease it back a little more.