A noob's adventures in old technology
 

Today I endeavored to do some neglected maintenance/repairs to my 1980 Buick. The plan is to replace:
- distributor cap
- distributor rotor
- spark plug wires
- spark plugs
- half a tailpipe

Known obstacles:
- Raining and kinda cool temperature
- Muddy back yard
- Battery in car is pretty dead
- My ratchet & socket set is in my broken truck, 30 miles away

So, I pick up the parts. They don't have the tailpipe in stock but they'll order it and have it early afternoon. I get home and begin work. I find that the distributor is partially buried under the A/C compressor and figure I'll work around it. As I work I realize that I probably ought to replace the ignition coil too (but it's easy to replace later). Then I realize that I am not confident that the cap is aligned correctly.

Then I find that I can't fasten the 4th clip because the A/C compressor is in the way; I was barely able to unclip the old one. I find a 15mm wrench in my odds-and-ends wrench/socket toolbox and am able to loosen the A/C with a struggle. Then I have to struggle with a hammer to rotate it far enough to get the belt off, struggle with levers and hammers to move it back in the other direction further than it originally was, and so on. I eventually get the 4th distributor cap clip in place.

Now it's time to replace the wires. The markings I painted on the wires using white-out have rubbed off many in the struggle. Luckily Chilton provides me the firing order (Haynes does not; I have both). I run the first wire from the plug to the distributor. I plug it in and the terminal snaps off the distributor cap. :mad:

They just called and said that the tailpipe got lost and I can either wait for Sunday or cancel the order.

On most cars, you can find the firing order on the top of the intake manifold. That is, if you can find the intake manifold....

Remember...on GM cars odd numbers are on the left, even numbers on the right.

Fords are different...left side is 1-4, right side is 5-8. This led to a now amusing but then pretty frustrating experience when I changed the distributor cap on my first Ford product...I was used to GM/Chrysler engines and didn't realize that the cylinders were numbered differently on Fords...

You could get some of that flexible muffler bandage stuff as a temporary expedient to fix the tail pipe...or try some of that metal tape for heating/cooling ducts...

If you still have the original distributor ring, the cylinder that wire goes to is marked on it. If I recall correctly, we've had a previous conversation where I think you mentioned that you don't have it. Its still pretty easy if you do it one wire at a time. I've done it on my 81 Regal many times over the years.

-Jay

The tailpipe needs more than a bandage. It's complete rotted in a couple sections.

The ring is definitely gone.

So, I went to exchange the cap and they were out of stock. They got one from another nearby location, which took an hour so my wife wanted to shop for an hour. We shopped then got the new part.

I installed it and the car won't fire. It's normal for that car to crank for a long time (probably over a minute) before it fires and my battery doesn't have that much cranking in it. However, I sprayed ether so it should have fired immediately. I must have screwed it up.

Oh, I forgot to ask my questions.

How do I know if I have the cap aligned correctly? It doesn't seem to be keyed or anything.

How do the rotor and cap work? It looks like the rotor spins around inside the cap and points at the contacts that lead to the terminals, but it doesn't look like it actually touches them.

The old cap and rotor look like new, I wonder if I should have skipped it and just replaced the wires and plugs.

https://smiliesftw.com/x/lol_1.gif Ok, I just realized what I did. Thank you, JoeBob.

https://arrc.epnet.com/autoapp/8584/c...4/85842009.gif

My Chilton's book has the same diagram. I looked at it backwards, thinking the thing sticking off the end in the diagram was the fan, not the output shaft.

Edit: And I think I also forgot to plug the 3 electric plugs back in.

The cap and rotor will only fit on one way. You may not notice it, but there is a small notch in the cap that fits into the distributor. There is only one way for it to fit flush on the distributor. My feeling is this... If you can't remember when the last time the cap & rotor were replaced, then do it. The gap can widen between the cap & rotor, but still have it "look" good.

-Jay

The rotor only fit one way, for sure.

The cap doesn't click into any position, when not clipped down I can rotate it a good 30 degrees smoothly. The clips did seem to click into place, though, in such a way that they wouldn't where it's not designed...and that's probably close enough.

Are you sure the distributor wasn't loose and you were changing the timing?

-Jay

I am not sure. How would I know?

When I was screwing on the rotor, it did twist a bit but seemed to spring back to its original position.

The distributor will twist a little bit and spring back. That's the centrifugal advance. Underneath the plate with the pickup (or points if you have an old Flintstone's era car) there are a couple flyweights and springs which advance your timing when you speed up the engine.

Every distributor cap I've ever seen has had some sort of key, notch, something to allow it to only go on one way.

Not plugging in the three electrical plugs probably saved you from some entertaining bucking and backfiring through the throttle body or the carburetor.

I really like modern cars, where you don't have to do this stuff every 10k miles...

Seriously, it's supposed to get done every 10,000 miles?

Another question about old cars: Is it supposed to take a LOT of cranking before it can fire? (Presumably I'm waiting for the engine-mounted mechanical fuel pump to bring fuel to the carburetor.) For as long as I've had the car, if it hasn't been driven recently it takes a lot of cranking before it will fire. If I spray ether it will fire until it runs out of ether or until it gets the job done.

The 10,000 mile interval is for points type ignition. GM has used electronic ignition in their vehicles since 1975. Your Buick has electronic ignition. I believe the recommended service interval was originally 30,000 miles. If you put quality ignition parts in, plus AC Delco platinum plugs, and there are no major issues with the way the engine is running you can get 10 years/100,000 miles out of the cap, rotor, and plugs. If you're running rich/lean/burning oil then the life of these components will be reduced. The cap/rotor/wires/plugs have been in my Buick for 8-10 years, and I've had no issues with them.

Do not use generic parts. I have had nothing but trouble with parts from companies I've never heard of before. I remember the first time I did a tune up on my old 74 Chevy pickup before I converted it to electronic ignition. The guy put a bunch of parts on the counter labeled "Modern Mechanic". That crap started burning up a week after I put it in. I went back and bought Niehoff parts, and didn't have any troubles until about 10,000 miles later when I got pissed, and just ripped the distributor out and replaced it with an electronic one from a 75 Chevy van.

In my experience the only brands that are worth anything in an early 80's GM application are Niehoff, AC Delco, and Napa. I liked Niehoff because the quality of their plug wires was just as good, if not better than AC Delco, and they still put the nipples on the wires for the distributor ring. AC Delco no longer puts nipples on their wires. When you buy a cap, inspect the terminals. If they're aluminum then pass. The aluminum corrodes too easily. I've been happy with caps that had brass terminals, but they have been harder to find.

As far as your cranking issue goes, yes. You have to re-prime the fuel pump and fill up the bowl on the carb before the car will start. If not driven daily it will take a while to start. If I haven't started my Buick in a few days I pump the pedal about 15 times, and continue to pump while cranking. I can usually get it started within 15 seconds.

It definitely has electronic ignition. :thumbup:

Is BWD a known brand? It's all that Advance Auto Parts has, and they're the decent local store. The nipples are definitely not brass. I'll have to get better parts when stuff breaks, if I decide that the car is viable.

What's the appropriate way to re-prime the pump and fill the carb bowl? Just cranking and pumping like you say? How does pumping the pedal 15 times before cranking help? I'd love if I could just do that and start it in 15 seconds. I know that pumping the pedal will make it squirt if there's fuel at the carb, but you make it sound like it'll even suck up fuel from the tank.

Ok, so I was wrong in my previous post. I didn't wire it backwards. I only forgot to plug in those connectors.

It fired right up. It seems to run a little better. It bucks with heavy throttle above 40mph, so that's the next thing to troubleshoot once I replace the spark plugs*. I could barely reach 65 by babying the throttle just right, and I think the slight hill on my test run helped.

*: I didn't replace the spark plugs because my ratchet set is not with me. I'll retrieve it today and take care of that but I doubt that'll help my bucking.

Edit: ...ok, I just noticed that one of the spark plugs wasn't plugged in. In the cold rain yesterday, frustrated, I must have failed to attach it well.

Sounds like crap to me. If you must buy a store brand, buy Napa. Special order if you have to. Most often places like Advance will have more than 1 brand, but if you don't specify they just throw the cheapest on the counter. I would only buy Niehoff, AC Delco, or Napa for mine. I also forgot to mention: Stay away from Autolite. You think the Fram oil filters are the "orange can of death."? Their ignition parts aren't much better. Last time I needed a cap, rotor, and wires for Rusty I just bought them at the dealer. It cost a little bit more, but the parts came with a lifetime warranty. AC Delco platinums can be had on sale for about $2/ea if you shop around at most national chain parts stores.

Pumping the pedal is manually working the accelerator pump in the carbureator. If I don't do the procecdure on my Buick, and it hasn't been run in several days, the car will take several minutes to start.

So, the accelerator pump can pull all the way from the tank?

I have a spark plug that's fighting me all the way. I've gotten a couple turns out of it but it hasn't loosened. Should I keep fighting it, or should I retighten it and quit? I'm afraid to snap something or strip threads, that would be a disaster. The head would probably have to come off if that happened.

No, its not pulling from the tank, but what you're trying to do is pull fuel left in the lines into the carb. The fuel line doesn't drain back to the tank when the engine is off. There should be a check valve built into the fuel filter on your carb that prevents that. Speaking of which, how long has it been since that fuel filter was serviced? Its a small filter, and if the vehicle doesn't get driven much the filter can get gunked up with sediment which would make it hard to start.

As far as the plug is concerned, if you're scared you're going to break something, stop.

EDIT: I was just thinking... which one is difficult? Is it #6?

#5 as labeled in the diagram I posted above.

The drivers side is easy, I wish that if I had to have a problem it'd be on the drivers side. Passenger side is tight and impossible to see anything...I have to stick my camera in there or at least use a mirror to try to see what's going on.

I'm dreading trying to work on #1.

I may just leave it there. The plugs that came out look decent and probably only have 10,000 miles on them.

Oh, one other thing...I'm back to doubting my wiring. If I wired it having looked at the chart backwards, would it run at all? It runs pretty smoothly.

I was going to ask you about that. You can reverse 2 cylinders and it will idle ok, but if the engine is put under load it will miss.

Remember that #1 on a GM is always drivers side, all the way forward. Also consider that your timing may be off now that you've been messing with the distributor. Do you have a timing light?

I will try switching them and see what happens.

I wish you were closer. I'd love to go up there and play with it. I am very well versed in early 80's GM engines. I've owned my 81 Regal for almost 19 years, I grew up helping dad work on our 1980 Pontiac wagon, my 81 AMC Spirit had a Pontiac Iron Duke (151) in it, plus the experience I picked up working on my 74 and 86 Chevy trucks... I know a lot about early 80's GM.

If the engine is running reasonably smoothly, I wouldn't think there'd be a problem with the plug wires being crossed up. The lack of power above 45 mph sounds a lot like clogged fuel filter, which in my limited experience causes a car to run fine at idle, or slow speeds, and like a dead dog climbing hills or on the freeway.

Yeah, when I thought in that direction, I very temporarily forgot that it was doing that before, too.

Edit: The fuel filter is $3. Hooray! Where on the car is it?

I can't say for sure on your car...if the fuel pump is in the tank then it is probably under the car somewhere. If it is a mechanical fuel pump it is probably on the inlet to the carb.

HC's car has a mechanical fuel pump mounted on the side of the engine block. The fuel filter is located in the carb. Look at where the fuel line goes into the carb. Disconnect the aluminum fuel supply line from the carb. You will notice that the fuel line is screwed into a large brass bushing on the carb. Remove this bushing. The fuel filter is behind it. Make sure the new filter is put in facing the proper direction. The check valve will be facing out, and the brass endcap on the filter will be towards the back. If put in backwards the engine probably would not run at all.

Nope. Not gonna happen. I don't think that nut is coming loose unless I take the carburetor off, cut the fuel line, and replace it. It's acting like the nut on my truck's fuel filter did.

Sorry HC, but this thread is almost as funny as my granddaughters fascination with the crank up windows in my car ;). Drove 5 miles down the road with her winding the window up-down-up-down-up-down.

regards
Gary

Soak it with PBBlaster. Best stuff I've seen yet for stuck nuts. You DO have a tubing wrench, don't you? If not, get one. They're not expensive. Nut's already rounded off? Time for Vise-Grips.

Can you even GET cars with crank windows anymore?

To be honest, I'm not a fan of old engine and transmission technology. I know that some people are, but I really like the electronic systems in modern cars, partly because they're more compatible with my abilities and partly because they really produce great results.

What I like is the rest of the old car. You cannot get 1980 Buick comfort in a 2010 model at all. Nor can you get the driving experience of watching an incredibly long hood in front of you. Also, the trunk space would be nice if I do make the car into a viable daily driver. Another thing: The controls...you can't get steering like that anymore, and obedient throttle is becoming a thing of the past too.

I would love the 2.5L I5 engine and modern manual transmission from my 2008 VW in this Buick. It's got less torque than the Buick's 4.1L V6 but it ought to be good enough, especially with those silly low gears and only an additional 400 pounds of car to move. Come to think of it, the VW drives just fine with 600 pounds of passengers and cargo in addition to me. Just leave the drive-by-wire throttle in the VW...

Edit: Oh, and I do like manual windows. At least, for the drivers window...power for the rest means I can operate them from the driver's seat.

Already sprayed it with PB Blaster, and I have a set of flare wrenches. I don't have one large enough for the larger nut which needs to be immobilized, but Vise Grips ought to be fine for that.

Make sure your manifold preheat is working properly. It may not be the fuel filter.

The top of the air cleaner should be very warm, even hot, to the touch if the preheat is working properly.

The hose goes from the intake snorkel to one of the exhaust manifolds. I cold weather it is essential that you are preheating the air going to the carburetor or you will get icing and it will not run worth crap.

There should be a small vacuum operated flap that opens to allow the hot air to mix with the colder air.

regards
Gary

Flare wrenches are the way to go. Once you do get it apart, put it together with teflon tape, and it will never sieze up on you again.

I agree, I love seeing a long, expansive hood in front of me, the long reach forward to adjust the radio and air conditioning (lots of room to stretch out). Sitting down, and squishing down 6 inches into the seat. The way the car just seems to "float" down the road. Even a modern crown vic or town car just doesn't compare.

I'll definitely have to check that. It's old and lots of stuff is corroded, it's definitely possible that the flap isn't working properly.

You could jam the flap open to see if it makes any difference. Cost $.00.

regards
Gary

Good idea. That's a FE mod I'd probably do anyway...factory WAI.

Actually, on that car you would jam the flap closed to make a WAI. The flap does not control the air coming off the manifold, the flap controls how much cold air is let in, and mixed with the air from the WAI

Or just remove the vacuum line, IIRC.

I haven't noticed as much of the "float" in the '83 Cad (which I am currently in the process of dropping the transmission on...car knocks in neutral or reverse, but not in drive, been told it's a cracked flexplate, flywheel or whatever you call that thingie...but I see no cracks so I'm not quite convinced...), but then I have been running 40psi in the tires, and 27 years and 146k miles have taken their toll on the suspension rubber.

Best cars I've seen for floaty ride...a friend of mine used to have a 1949 Ford, and when I was a kid we had a 1954 Buick Super Riviera two door hardtop...that thing was like an overstuffed sofa going down the road (and leaned hard in corners).

The long hood looks cool (especially in a Lincoln with the gunsight hood ornament so you can aim at pedestrians...), but I like the modern cars where you can see the ground close to the front of the car a lot better...