Ethanol Lube
 

https://shareethaknowledge.com/?gclid...FQdY2godK3k8ZQ

this site claims to dismiss "myths" of ethanol. i couldn't find anything about the negative affects of it on fuel systems however. i've had issues regarding fuel system delivery since E10 made it's way to central florida in recent years.

i believe what they claim about keeping engines clean, so i really think expensive fuel cleaners are a waste; but i would like to begin a discussion on fuel system lube. thoughts?

i've been using amsoil 2 stroke, but i just bought some lucas upper cylinder lube.

I have been messing with ethanol for the last two years as my race fuel E85.
I love the stuff!!!!

I have converted several customers cars into Flex Fuel vehicles.

Four DSM's
Five Hondas
One Sentra ser spev v with a rear mount turbo.
Ford Mustang
etc.

From my personal experience what i have found is when you switch to E85 on a car that has been using petrol for a few years you will get debris in your fuel filters. So you need to change them out in the first 500 to 1000 miles. After that you will be good to go.

Also after tearing a few of these E85 engine down i have noticed that they look brand new. Were taking very clean combustion chambers and piston tops. Plus you will instantly notice that your oil will stay very clean to the point it looks new all the time.

As far as lubricates I didn't run any in all these cars and did'nt notice any issues with them.

One other issue that needs to be address is sometimes not all the time you will see a collection of black looking soot on the tip of the fuel injectors. They have given it a nick name of the black beard syndrome. This is something over time that if not watch it could give you problems?

hey are you anywhere near salmon idaho? I have friends there who might be interested in an e85 swap maybe..

I live up in the northern panhandle of Idaho, about 80 miles south of the Canadian border.

I think Salmon is in about the middle of the state?

ehtanol/wet or dry
 

There are many websites that are stating that wet ethanol performs so much better...the distillation processes do not require the the lighter gas molecules to be distilled....when getting dry ethanol.
That explains the difference of "fuel density BTU comparisons"
This has been known since 1934...when the rulling scholars noted that gasoline in use smelled terrible compared to ethanol use...and submitted data that "low-grade ethanol" (wet ethanol) did not pollute the air with obnoxious smells and only needed a slight pre-heat time to out perform gasoline....when cold starting.
We have been dupped since that time.
The slight amount of water absorbed....acts as a lubricant...like water lubricated bearings.
That would something to google to appreciate water as a lubricant.

The ASTM has changed the perdictable outcomes of the energy released concerning wet ethanol blends...in 2008.
Far superior to gasoline blends...
especially when using the 'splash method of blending'...which has been used since dry ethanol was introduced as an oxygenator.
The purposeful intent was to deter the effciency of ethanol blends.

Look up the Microfuel.com...uses the Butterfield technology of making wet ethanol...at home.
Look closely at the head people running this rodeo.

Robert

Kinda on the same lines regarding E85, is it like gasoline where only a small amount will actually evaporate into a flameable vapor and the rest of the fuel is just a "heavy" fuel that won't evaporate easily? Or will more of the E85 evaporate into a flameable vapor than gasoline?


I've got a project lawn mower that runs on fuel vapors, but it doesn't run too long with gasoline. I want to try E85 and see if it's any better.

Re: Ethanol Lube
 

I get horrible mileage with ethanol polluted fuel. If my vehicles were tuned for it I am sure it wouldn't be so bad. We need to pick a fuel and stay with it instead of this mixing and trying to rig em to work for both. Jmo

Re: Ethanol Lube
 

IDC what anybody says, ethanol needs to be kicked to the curb, except for e85. E85 is good in my opinion for the newer cars, but I don't like somebody putting something into the fuel that my car originally wasn't tuned to run on. I noticed a bit of difference in mileage between e10 and regular unleaded gas. On my trip to FL, I got 28mpg on my way on the first tank, and then so happened I stumble across a station with ethanol free gas and that tank gave me 36mpg. Same foot, same engine, same car, same I-95. Go figure.


Not to mention I work on Chinese mopeds on the side and ethanol tears carbs up BAD. Corrosion gets inside the needle and pilot jets. You can run the stuff if you are an avid rider, but if your liquorcycle once a week, you are eventually going to be screwed. You have to use expensive ethanol enzyme that probably doesn't work.

Re: Ethanol Lube
 

Only flex-fuel vehicles certified to run on E85. Most newer cars won't run well on it, just like most older cars.

Same with lawnmowers, snowblowers, etc. You have to install a fuel shutoff valve if it doesn't already have one, and when you're going to park it for a week you shut it down using the valve so the carb bowl runs dry.

Re: Ethanol Lube
 

Read the following artice to understand why ethanol:

1) increases smog
2) decreases mpg
3) will destroy your car

https://www.businessweek.com/lifestyl...514_058678.htm

Re: Ethanol Lube
 

good read!

EPA, FDA, USDA, etc all SEEM to look out for consumers' best interests...in reality they're just an extension of corrupt politicians.

i'll continue to lube my fuels thank you!

Re: Ethanol Lube
 

The article really doesn't explain the why of the first two points.

As to the third, I have a co-worker who, with hundreds of others, had expensive fuel system repairs because the refinery shipped gas with too much sulfur. The oil company covered the repairs, and they should be the ones responsible in cases where ethanol content exceeds 10%. The ethanol mandate has been in place in some states for years now, and it wasn't surprise that it was expanding. Car manufacturers are responsible for new cars not handling 10%.

I know I don't, and many others probably do the same, but you should be draining small engines of fuel at the end of the season even without the presence of ethanol. I remember lawnmowers being hard to start in the spring long before ethanol, and stale fuel was the likely culprit. With ethanol, I regularly add IPA to keep phase seperation in check.

I'm against ethanol as fuel. I can live with it as a MTBE replacement, but don't want anymore added into the supply when there are better options, like butanol and thermopolymerized biocrude.

Re: Ethanol Lube
 

That article is bogus and slanted. :rolleyes:

And anyone that pays that much for a fuel pump is an idiot.

Re: Ethanol Lube
 

Put up or shut up. :)

Re: Ethanol Lube
 

I have put up. Use the search function.

Re: Ethanol Lube
 

Never! ;)

Re: Ethanol Lube
 

Your loss...

Re: Ethanol Lube
 

i must have some inbreed crazy gas here cuz weve been using ethonal E10 in the pumps here since early 80's...

motors we've run and some still run with it:

1929 model A engine (carbed)
1952 evenrude outboard 2 cycle (carbed)
1960 VW ghia flat 4 cyl (it was recently rebuilt when we restored the car but still carbed and sits during the winter with last years gas - fires right up springtime)
1969 mongomery ward outboard 2 cycle (carbed)
1972-2003 lawnmowers both riding and push (all carbed)
1972 dodge ram van (full carb)
1977 chevy caprecee classic (full carb)
1980 chevette (full carb)
1982 ford escort (full carb i belive)
1986 plymoth reliant
1987 dodge aries K car
1992 GMC s15 jimmy
1995 dodge neon
1995 chevy s10 pickup
1996 saturn SC2
1996 ford aerostar
1997 ford tarus
1999 weed eater string trimmer 2 cycle
2002 chevy s10 blazer
2004 polun chainsaw 2 cycle
2007 ford fusion

(a few random snowblowers mixed in there but no clue how old they are)

whatevers left in each one stays in each one all year including the lawnmower gascan. no stabil either.

yes if all you've ran is reg gas and start putting ethonal in it will cause problems, especially the older the engine is due to varnish buildup and will eat the dried out seals.

yes you do get less mpg using E10 vs reg gas i'm not disputing that.

yea e85 is only meant for cars that's able to run it but E10 should be good for most cars id say the late 70's even (not sure when it first started appearing but my 1980 chevettes manual even says its OK to run E10) to present.

shag wagon about your trip to flordia; yea from what Ive personally noticed a 3-5mpg difference between reg and e10 in most of my vehicles but you also didnt account for traffic and wind differences and distances between the different stations. it seems the higher the MPG vehicles you see more of a drastic change between reg and e10 VS trucks with low mpg to start off and such where i see maybe a 1-2mpg difference...

the chineese mopeds carbs probably corrode up because of shotty materials because they are chineese mopeds...:p ive never had a B&S or techumseh or kohler or any car engine have a gas issue that wasnt caused by something else (literally dirt and grass clippings clogging stuff usually). thier all quality brass and aluminum or good cast alloy carb parts and fuel systems.

Re: Ethanol Lube
 

https://www.fuel-testers.com/ethanol_...ms_damage.html

also, just what i thought...fuel cleaners may not be necessary w/ E10...https://www.fuel-testers.com/is_gas_a..._e10_list.html

lubrication is another matter however.

Re: Ethanol Lube
 

What is it that needs lubrication? :confused:

Re: Ethanol Lube
 

yea exactly... gas isnt used as a lubricant in an engine, thats why 2 cycle engines have oil in the gas (regular ol motor oil works too, dont need those tiny bottles of 2 cycle - BUT they do smoke alot less haha) and if you dont have said oil it destroys it in a minute or less. and 4 cycle engines with an esentially oil "pan" do not need the oil in the gas obviously...

https://www.fuel-testers.com/ethanol_...ms_damage.html

^^^ that article is biased or thier not giving you the whole picture... yea PURE ethonal will dissolve alot of things, pure of alot of chemicals dissolves alot too haha

they make it sound like your trying to start an engine thats been sitting for 50 years unran and you put e10 in it its going to melt into a pile of goo. yes it can eat away non compatible rubber hoses and seals but they've been making it compatible for years, and if not i think 40 year old fuel lines and the carb needs to be replaced/rebuilt anyways...also not entirely sure where all this rust keeps comming from they mention...time to check the tank or see if ya got any oil left...:p

the points about E10 and boat engines doesn't make a bit of sense either...

whole article(s) are written to sell thier stupid fuel tester. it may be 9% ethanol one week then 11 the next you gonna keep testing the gas by paying for a drops worth for thier tests each time a new tanker pulls in? yes u are cuz they have you so scared your car boat lawnmower weedwhacker chainsaw is going to melt and be unrepairable!!!:rolleyes:

Re: Ethanol Lube
 

Ha ha- fueltesters. :rolleyes:

Don't they know GASOLINE is a solvent too?

Re: Ethanol Lube
 

Yes, alcohols will mix with water, but ethanol is also hygroscopic. This means its affinity for water is strong and will even absorb moisture from the air. It's why it is used in Heet. Pure ethanol will stabilize to around 95% when not sealed up. In fact, straight distillation can't remove that 5% water. You need to use molecular sieves or benzene to get absolute ethanol.

So it brings water into the fuel system, which might lead to rusting steel. Flex fuel vehicles use stainless in areas, but they are expected to deal with more water. Additives that use ethanol can bring in more water, and at a certain point the ethanol water mix will seperate from the gas. This might cause running problems. I don't worry about it in my car.

For the lawnmower, where the gas stills exposed to humidity longer, I'll add isopropanol once and awhile. It will keep the ethanol/water mixed with the gas, and it isn't hygroscopic. If you don't want to add the water in the rubbing alcohol, add some salt. IPA doesn't mix with saline solutions, and it should seperate like oil and water.

Re: Ethanol Lube
 

Water and gaseous free O2 cause rust together as a team. Your fuel system should not be seeing gaseous O2 if it's a modern pressurized, sealed, check-valve-protected system (as found on all fuel injected vehicles).

If it's a non-pressurized system as in my carburted Buick then it could get air after it sits and fuel drains back into the tank/evaporates into the carburetor; at that point airborne water vapor does water's job in rusting it, not water that may have separated from fuel that passed through.

Anyway, wouldn't the point where the ethanol separates from water be when it's burned (along with airborne water vapor from the air intake)?

Also, isopropanol (aka isopropyl alcohol) is just as hygroscopic as ethanol, which is why Iso-HEET works as well as regular HEET.

If you want to worry about rust, worry about the salt that you're adding. I suspect that it could easily precipitate onto steel surfaces during small heating/cooling cycles. When air hits that surface the salt speeds up rusting.

Re: Ethanol Lube
 

yea i would NOT add salt to anything, if anything they need to stop using salt on the roads around here...hence where places that get the same if not more snow the cars rot less that places that get less and use salt...

Re: Ethanol Lube
 

bottom line...there are documented complications in small and marine engines. long term affects of auto engines are debated, tho likely inconclusive as of yet. all 4 of my vehicles are 14-15 years old or more...for my older vehicles, i'll pay the nominal "fee" for lube as cheap insurance.

btw, for you chemistry guys...doesn't 100% gas have a present lubricity to it? i thought i heard this before...at least that it has some lube already in it compared to E10.
_____________________
reminds me...i ran out of lube. have run a few tanks w/out it, and have had lower FE. coincidence? i'll find out. filled today w/ lube...

Re: Ethanol Lube
 

yea most if not all fluids have SOME lubricating properties...(wet road VS dry road VS oil slick road haha) but once again we ask what are you lubricating???

i hope you dont count those stores that people wrote in to that article you posted bowtieguy... most of their problems can be explained by other things some yes E10 is contributing but usually what happens to engines that have been run exclusively on reg gas then switch to E10, the ethanol breaks down all the varnish and deposits left behind which gum up/clog the carb up untill you clean it out real well.

Re: Ethanol Lube
 

Don't make the mistake of lumping in old boats and mowers and chainsaws in with cars; they are in a different situation regarding ethanol for several reasons, among them that they are likely to be OLD as in made with non-ethanol resistant fuel system parts before ethanol was in fuel, they are likely to be CARB'D and as such are not adaptive to mixture control like EFI, they are likely to sit unused for extended periods of time, and etc.

I've read that N. American vehicles have been at least E10 resistant since 1988 and recently saw where Delphi, a supplier of OEM fuel system components, says their stuff has been E85 resistant since '92. That's good to know, as I've been running straight E85 in my '92 Tempo and '94 F150 in the non-winter months for several years now and I haven't had to fix anything, not even change a fuel filter. But I have had fuel lines and carb mixture issues with E85 in older stuff like mowers and motorcycles- no surprise, and I won't constantly run E85 in my '84 Tempo but I'll do it once in a while as sort of a fuel system cleansing, immediately followed by a fill with regular. But of course I feed all that old stuff E10 because, well, MN has had E10 as regular mandated since '97 but available far longer. I remember gasohol being all the rage in the early '80s.

Re: Ethanol Lube
 

GM's been doing it since at least 1980:

Re: Ethanol Lube
 

yup same funny paragraph in my owners manual lol

Re: Ethanol Lube
 

You are thinking of hydrophilic. While hygroscopic chemicals are also hydrophilic, the reverse isn't always true. Hydrophilic simply means the compound can dissolve and be dissolved by water. The two still have to be brought together before any dissolving happens. Hygroscopic materials' affinity for water go a step further and will draw water in the environment(the air) to themselves.

The salt doesn't not go into the car. It goes into the IPA and water mix. It dissolves with the water, IPA will no longer dissolve with the water and salt mix, and they'll seperate into layers. Take the IPA use it in your engine, and dump, drink, gargle with, throw at the neighbor's kids, etc. the water salt mix. I haven't done this, but I'm not worried about little amount of water the 91% rubbing alcohol.

Re: Ethanol Lube
 

Interesting note on Delphi perhaps being ethanol resistant as far back as '92 on 'up to e85'. I see that as another reason to get quality replacement parts regarding fuel delivery/system, especially if they are components with plastic pieces ,etc. It makes me want to call the company and ask about my specific part before just buying anything that will work.

Re: Ethanol Lube
 

RockAuto's POV on ethanol...

https://www.rockauto.com/Newsletter/index.html

from that link...
"I was excited when I saw a US government sponsored report on the impact of E15 on “legacy” vehicles. That is until I discovered that legacy only meant 10 years old! The study only indicated they were reasonably confident that E15 would not have a negative impact on 2001 and newer, legacy vehicles."

Re: Ethanol Lube
 

It is my understanding that E15 will be AN ADDITIONAL CHOICE at the pumps, and it will be labelled as not appropriate for the old stuff and small engines (as E85 is now labelled) and that E10 will remain available for those things.

The article appears to be a reasonable if very incomplete assessment of the E15 proposal. That said, I don't think the lack of a report on "legacy" vehicles i.e. pre-1988 vehicles, not pre-2001, is anything to fuss over or worry about in any way. What is it going to tell us that we don't already know? Pre '88 and you may or may not run into problems with ethanol incompatible parts and I think the only way to expand on that in a useful way is to compile a huge list of all the equipment that is and is not ethanol compatible.

Re: Ethanol Lube
 

If we are to define "legacy vehicles" as the oldest common blue-collar daily driving vehicles used for going to work and hauling the family around, I'd say 1990s. 2001+ would be "recent" to "late model" if you ask me.

Before the 1990s, now we're looking at a smaller number of vehicles that people need to drive, more that are toy/extra vehicles (the population on this forum doesn't represent more common percentages).

Anyway, I think my 1980 Buick can handle E15. Bring it on! I'm not afraid! https://allofftopic.com/images/smilies/gorilla_1.gif

Re: Ethanol Lube
 

^Haha, I love it!

Re: Ethanol Lube
 

For a while, one of the stations I got gas at regularly in North Dakota offered E20 gas. Aside from the obvious loss of mileage from using a lower energy fuel, I don't think anyone had any other issues with it. With only light modifications, any vehicle can be made to run on up to e-85 fuel, so adding another 5% of ethanol to the mix is not going to change anything but fuel economy.

Though, this is why I am glad I live in the northern plains where pure gas is still available at the pumps. I will gladly pay the extra 10 cents (since ethanol is subsidized here) for the extra 2mpg.

Actually, I would think you guys would love e-85, octane is really high, and combustion temperatures are lower, so you can run really aggressive timing on it.

Re: Ethanol Lube
 

The native compression is the main limit on getting the most out of E85. In Brazil, engines have a 12:1 or 13:1 compression to make better use of the higher levels of ethanol(up to 100%). Their engines will run rough below E20, though.

I wished an E85 station was actually accessible back when I had the Ranger. For some engines, E30 to E40 hits a sweet spot, and fuel economy is higher than on straight gas.

Re: Ethanol Lube
 

double post