The troll thread
 

Ok, some of us have been having some not so well contained urinating contests, I do feel bad about it as it is not constructive to have it scattered all around the board.

If you feel the need to blow off some steam or bait someone, then lets keep that mess contained over here. I'll start:

Exxon, 1999 confusion campaign: https://www.uow.edu.au/arts/sts/sbeder/ecologist2.html

Exxon 2007 confusion campaign:
https://www.ucsusa.org/news/press_rel...g-tobacco.html

Yeah, well, I ain't got much else to do, and I can't say I dislike it either. :o

There's a few threads... where no one can say didn't walk away an a$s....

I occasionally laugh though, you just can't make up some of the obscure references and goofy retorts.

Keep It Clean, Not Personal
 

Yes, the ALL CAPS indicates my tone correctly.

PLEASE, have an intelligent discussion about the topic. The pic was deleted, Skewbe.

Guys, the "Pub" is for off-topic discussions, which is OK. If it gets personal, e-mail or PM the opposing member.

GasSavers should be a place to discuss energy consumption topics without blatantly offending other members. Take it offline if this becomes necessary.

Thanks...

-Rick "RH77" / Moderator

Oh, my bad! When I saw "The troll thread" as the topic. I thought it was going to be about this guy:

https://sydlexia.com/imagesandstuff/spring/troll.jpg

Well, I was hoping this thread would act as a sort of flypaper, to keep the other threads a little cleaner, hence the pic. But I do take Exxons activities seriously, of course they would like us to waste as much gas as possible, no speculation about it, and they don't want anyone to listen to global warming because that would have the opposite effect.

I agree
 

With the moderation that occurred last evening, I honestly don't want to downplay the importance of these issues.

I feel the same about Exxon/Mobil -- in fact, we've been boycotting them over a year now.

There have been many times I've driven out of my way when on the road, to avoid an Exxon station and to fill-up elsewhere. So far, I haven't used any of their products for 1-2 years (can't remember the last time -- I used to use Mobil standard oil, but I gave it up for Castrol GTX about a year ago or more).

Their practices are truly outrageous.

RH77

I'm not advocating anything or taking sides on issues and I hope I'm not encouraging, but this was a pretty funny sentence :D .

Hah, "THE" alternate point of view IS a "red flag" in this case and isn't even worth acknowledging in some cases, usually being rooted in mythology or lack of understanding. Some examples:

1. Mythology is a better explanation than evolution
2. The earth is only 5000 years old and dinosaurs and people lived together
3. Science should consider mythological explanations that have zero evidence to be of equal value as the evidence at hand.
4. Scientists always belive they are absolutely right, that they are not humbled and made more rigorous by past assertions that were proven false.



https://www.ericdsnider.com/images/dinosaur.JPG


"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross" -Sinclair Lewis

I still don't believe they have conclusive proof that global warming is man's fault. I feel that this is a red herring to keep people busy, scare people, ect. But that should be neither here nor there. I don't doubt there is some impact from man, but for me it isn't a black and white issue where either man is the only cause of global warming or has no effect whatsoever. I work to cut emissions on my own part for two reasons, I'm a cheap SOB and I feel that pollution is a big issue. Pollution should be cut because it has very real, very proven negative effects on both man and the environment. The difference for me here is, man is proven to cause pollution, but man has not been proven to warm the globe.

Science is not the be-all and end-all of any discussion either. A scientist has to make an assumption on something to have a starting point, then proceed to prove or disprove that assumption. The problem with this is, people don't like to be wrong, and will discard evidence that disproves their assumption, and will pad evidence that proves it. State Attorney General Nifong (not a scientist) was an extreme example of this tendency. This is why scientists must have their theories tested by independent testing. The problem, as I see it, is that most of the scientists have a belief in global warming already, whether they see it as a cash cow or just brainwashing. So if these are the scientists doing the review, where is the independent verification? There is none. Scientists are far from perfect, they can only come to conclusions over what they think they see, just like anyone else. On the other hand, all they had to do to see pollution was look at the haze over Los Angeles, take air samples over time, and see what was in the air. Thus, they proved that man polluted the air. Or, take water samples over time and measure what's in there. If there is a factory emitting a lot of mercury, and they find high levels of mercury in the water, this proves man polluted the water.

Another problem for the scientist making global warming claims is what they do not know. Most days, you can read stories in Yahoo that scientists made this discovery or that discovery about things that would affect global warming, that they did not take into account. For example, 2 weeks ago a story was put up stating that a major current was discovered south of Australia that connects all the oceans along Antarctica. They were unaware of this current as it was some 2000ft deep, but they said that this current is a major driver of the Earth's climate. This week an announcement was made about some solar wave radiation that they didn't know about. A few weeks ago they discovered that solar wind affected the atmosphere of Mars. This suggests that there may be radiation working on the Earth's atmosphere that they don't know about (they also said that the solar wind is canceled out by the Earth's magnetic field). So in my mind, these scientists claiming man's actions are the root of all global warming can't be correct because they not only aren't using all the factors affecting the Earth, they don't yet know all the factors. How can you look at a small part of a large picture you've never seen before and know what the picture is? They can't even agree on what the end result will be, some claim we are going to cook in our own juices and others claim that we'll be skiing in Texas in July. They even discard their own evidence that indicates the Earth warms and cools periodically, as they've found tropical vegetation in core samples taken from arctic regions, indicating that at some point in the past it was a lot warmer up north than it is now.

At any rate, the whole argument over whether or not global warming is fact is not one that should really be argued on this board. I think it's safe to say that everyone who is posting here cares about the environment, so it should not matter what the underlying reasons are. So skewbe is trying to go green to stop global warming and I'm trying to go green to cut pollution and save money. The goal is the same whatever the reason, so there should be no argument over motivation.

Incidentally, boycotting Exxon is only symbolic, petroleum products are fungible so it really doesn't matter to Exxon if you buy from them directly or buy from someone of a different brand that Exxon supplies to on the wholesale level.

I'm convinced, another longwinded, misinformed,mis reasoned,conflicting,"peel the labels off my shirt and put them on everyone else", generally confused post. You are a tool of the confusion campaign, weather you realize it or not.

You would discredit science and disallow funding into the question of if man is a force of nature, and they continue to refine the model, and as they do you try and use that to discredit them further?!? You don't want to know the truth. You want to sit on your hind and just criticise and not have to do anything different.

Neh, skewbe just has the same old "with me or against me", "only my opinion is correct" mindset. I don't care if people want to research global warming, more power to them. I just object to the idea that I must jump on the latest hobby horse and believe in my heart that global warming is caused by man and only man can fix the problem by selling carbon credits and kissing the *** of the global warming god, Al "I'm such a hypocrite" Gore, who writes his global warming speeches at his 21,000 square foot "consumes more energy in a month that the rest of us do in a year" house which sitting on top of his Superfund-listed zinc mine. 'Ol Al then jets across the nation in his private jet to deliver these speeches, when the same thing could be accomplished with a teleconference which would generate far, far less pollution. I also object to being called a tool of the confusers because I chose to engage my mind rather than blindly accept the teachings of the global warming cult. I just don't see how man's small amount of pollution can be the be-all and end-all of global warming. I really object to the idea that my government must commit itself along with my tax dollars to global warming the fact instead of global warming the shaky theory. I'd rather my government just commit to passing laws to cut pollution and commit those tax dollars towards clean technology. Let those who want to research global warming do it on their own nickel.

In short, spend the time and money cleaning the joint up instead of spending the time and money thinking about what might happen if we don't.

What's really funny is how skewbe and I have the same goals of cutting pollution and reducing consumption, but because my motivation is different from his somehow I'm actually the problem. skewbe is just a narrow minded zealot who can't accept someone who isn't bowing down to the Almighty Al. You'd almost think he was Islamic or something.

Do you even know the definition of agnostic? If so, do tell - I'd love to hear it after that sentence :D

It's funny Telco, you haven't contributed anything useful yet you keep up the bla bla bla. In case you haven't noticed ,the content of all your arguments thus far can be summed up in the phrase "I'm rubber, your glue", LOL.

Wow, people even wanna brawl on a gas mileage board? :eek: Gotta love the WWW...it's like the WWE in alot of ways!:D

^^^^^ yeah this. :)

*sigh* After reading this I think you could have put your own handle in place of skewbe's and your rant would've been about as accurate. :(

Islam, and the rest of the world doesn't exist to Telco and bowtie, that is why global warming doesn't exist. Don't worry, I'm sure they have removed all references to islam from the Kansas public schools.

My comment doesn't mean I'm supporting you, I think this whole bit of arguing is silly. :)

That's fine, I still think they are bigots with the most obvious agenda who accuse everyone else of doing exactly what they are doing.

I dont understand why everything is so extreme now days. Its insane!!!

Take my party. the RipOff Reps. As far as they are concerned. There is no issue. Drill and drive SUV's. Tap Tap Tap

The Dumb-O-Crats on the other hand want to preach the sky is falling and we are all going to die! Give us your money. I did not have sex!

And then there are us types that see,, yeah,, there might be a issue. Let me save some gas. Think about this a little. Better to air on the side of caution. And we get lam bashed. Get torn a part by the I want to save the world do gooders. And then damn near ran over by the SUV driving idiots.

There is no middle ground in our country anymore. And if your not on the extreme end of something you are the enemy! It doesn't matter if it global warming, abortion, tax, speed limits or sex positions.

Its got to the point that its imbarrasing.

Then there are those of us who think that there is nothing but apathetic middle-ground, with neither side really doing anything but talking about what they think is good.

At least as far as this discussion is concerned, it seems to hinge completely on point of view. So, that considered, let's not lose our heads.

*hugs* for everyone.

When the internet is involved, we can expect nothing less than that. With one exception -- when you're showing what good you've already done with reasonable explanation of why it is/was good and how it can be repeated by peers (bonus points for empirical data).

What I find amusing is that, somehow, we thing there's only two ends. I think that's what we're taught in school though - "Listen to the other side" - "what's the other story" - "What's the other point of view" - etc. That, as opposed to "find another point of view" - I, for one, would be joining this party if I were a citizen of Sweden (or when it's easily available in the US)...
Pirate Party

Indeed, I just rode to the library on my bike! *showsoff*

But really, even in life I feel the same. Most of the time it is my own lack of commitment that worries me though. Not that I don't care, but that I grew up in the US "do nothing because you can't do anything" mentality.

I am actually one of the few who things there is only a middle ground. We may talk big with labels and things and all that, but really there aren't so many real outliers. We can talk about gay rights and things but how many of us are going to be gung ho about it but the gays? And even then, how many gay people would even be there marching or calling or petitioning?

My US history teacher in high school would always draw a political graph and show us how policies keep getting more centric. Of course, things are changing, more things are the norm now. While it is certainly more liberal than it used to be, there are less outliers from the status quo.

Ramble ramble ramble.

I actually don't have my head in the sand here skewbe. I simply don't see enough evidence to convince me that man is the be all and end all of global warming. I could be convinced, but it's going to take more than some scientists telling me that it's true because they say so, give me money please.

No use in me continuing to post on this though. You are of the opinion that I must either agree with you or have something wrong with me. It doesn't seem to matter to you that we have the same end goals, it only seems to matter to you on what my motivation is. Since you feel I have nothing to contribute unless I am also worshipping your god Gore, then don't read my posts. Since it's your way or the highway, I think I'll hit the road.

You can't argue with a zealot, and that's exactly what skewbe is. Luckily he has no way of actually finding me, otherwise I'd have to worry about being beheaded.

Oh, well, from the be all and end all standpoint, of course man isn't solely responsible for GW. If the sun would just decrease the energy transmitted to us proportionally to the extra amount we're trapping, there would be no problem. Why don't you head over to the center of the solar system and have a talk with 'em? Or, if you wanna stay local, reduce the amount of water on the Earth. Just chuck it out of the atmosphere little by little. :D

Ha! I just got back from the bank... VIA bike (something I don't normally do) :p Mostly because I only have 1.3 gallons of fuel left in my tank - and a little more than another week before I can refuel to hit my target consumption goal :D

I'm trying to think -- how long has it been since a novel, non trivial, non war related achievement has come from the US? I mean things like a polio vaccine, first shuttle launch, etc.... A portion of one of my lectures today was on quality control - because Japan is beating us into the ground.

I was all ready to go the gay pride/rights parade in San Francisco (the parade). But an unfortunate time miscalculation and bad information (both my fault) prevented it :/ Perhaps we've just opened a new can of worms... But really, it's not about gay rights -- it's equal rights. And as most of the world knows, America is pretty slow when it comes to equal rights for targeted groups.

It has always been my opinion that the "center" is a fluid "thing" -- that is, it changes with what is considered the social normal. You can go back in history and find all sorts of crazy laws by todays standards - but they were completely normal then, centered :p

The problem is.... You don't hear the center very frequently as they're too busy to be bothered by this crap. I myself am moderate, I clash with both sides and have yet to vote a straight ticket. Heh, voting is more than some can say for my age group.

considering the alternative viewpoint
 

I wonder if folks ever considered that these 2500 scientists might be doing it for altruistic reasons?

Doing it for money was always a stretch, but if one cannot even comprehend altruism as a motive then they may be led to such a conclusion, and they have my pity, like it or not.

Very nice! What's the goal?

That's an interesting question. I'm not old enough to really know the answer, though. I will ponder though.

But you can't really blame japan, they're just better at things! Well, actually, it's prolly just that they try harder.

[quote]
I was all ready to go the gay pride/rights parade in San Francisco (the parade). But an unfortunate time miscalculation and bad information (both my fault) prevented it :/ Perhaps we've just opened a new can of worms... But really, it's not about gay rights -- it's equal rights. And as most of the world knows, America is pretty slow when it comes to equal rights for targeted groups.
[\quote]

Indeed, that's the idea I have trouble communicating to people. Especially at Dartmouth, it's always about "we pay too much attention to minorities" blah blah blah, and never about, "we should pay attention to the whole."

Indeed. Well, voting is fun. I've only had one chance and I voted a straight ticket because there were no independents with real ideas. It was either the pothead democrats who are dartmouth alums or the pothead libertarian fake republicans who are dartmouth alums. Silly NH politics.

*sigh* I need some ice cream.

A parody on ‘The Science of Deception’, kinda hits home.
https://www.thepoorman.net/tcs_parody...ressivism.html

The goal is not to fuel up until the 12th of September - I will then make a new goal on my next tank. I'm really stretching thin though, I think it's going to be tougher than I thought considering some of my obligations coming up.

I don't blame Japan.... I'm saying that we've been given some 30+ years to rise to the challenge.

Interestingly, LEGO has such quality -- they produce on the 6 Sigma level (that is, 3.4 defects per million opportunities), or at least very near to it.

That goal its awesome man keep us posted!

skewbe -

From my POV, this is at least a 30 year old issue, starting with the Greenhouse Effect. The whole "scamming for money" argument doesn't make sense because the vested interests that stand to lose have way more money than the scientific community. If I was a scientist that only cared about the money, it would be much more beneficial to me to churn out anti-GW research.

I remember way back in the 1980's, I was at a Green Party booth handing out fliers. A man came up to me and said "convince me why I should vote Green". I couldn't give him a good answer. Later on I figured out that I would present a hypothetical argument that goes something like this :

Let's say that the Green Party wins the election but is wrong about global warming. What will happen over the next 100 years? The environment will be protected but the economy will suffer. The forests will grow, the rivers will get cleaner, and the pollution will be diminished. We won't have a go-go economy, but we will have a more healthy environment to live in. If the Green Party is wrong, then after 100 years, we will have oodles of restored resources to exploit. Lot's of trees to cut down, lots of clean water to bottle and sell to the rest of the world, unspoiled tourism locations, unused coal to strip mine to our heart's content, yada yada yada...

But, let's say that the Green Party loses but is correct in terms of it's environmental platform. What will happen over the next 100 years? The environment will be devastated. The underwater aquifers will be polluted. The Dust Bowl will return to stay. Kids will grow up with health problems and learning disorders from pollution that damages their organs and nervous system. The health care system will collapse from all the pollution-based cancers that come along. The frequency of Hurricane-Katrina-style natural disasters will increase.

From my POV, it's much easier for society to recover from me being wrong than the other way around.

CarloSW2

Whooo boy.
https://bioage.typepad.com/photos/unc...4_augtrend.jpg
That much fresh water is really gonna screw with thermohaline circulation. Warmer warms and cooler cools baby.
If this trend continues over the next decade or so, could there be an order of magnitude more fresh water dumped in than there has been circa 2005/2006?

https://www.usatoday.com/weather/stor...x_N.htm?csp=34
"Tuesday was historic for two reasons: It was the first time on record that two Category 5 Atlantic hurricanes made landfall in the same year, with Felix coming two weeks after Hurricane Dean slammed into southern Mexico.

And Atlantic and Pacific hurricanes had never made landfall on the same date, according to records that began in 1949. However, at 5 a.m. on Aug. 24, 1992, Hurricane Andrew devastated southern Florida 23 hours after Lester hit Mexico's Baja California, the Hurricane Center said."

And a reminder to folks who can only think in black and white (or right and left), GW's own EPA admitted that the majority of the climate change is induced by human activity. Some more info and tips on what you can do to help. https://www.epa.gov/climatechange/

skewbe

No bodys ever said there isn't a problem in this thread,, or for that matter on this board. I think everybody for the most part is listening, looking into and thinking about it. Maybe not at your level of concern. But many see that as fear mongering.

Interesting that this came up...
Last night I saw a show on this subject. The sun's energy that reaches the ground is reducing according to a PBS show on global dimming. It said particulate pollutants have decreased the sun's radiation by up to 30% in some locations since the 1950s. Here's wikipedia's version https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_dimming
and some about it from PBS' site https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sun/
Apparently it is masking the full effects of GW.

Yup. Even with global dimming our Carbon emissions have still managed to heat stuff up. I read some USAF (IIRC?) page on cloud seeding to reduce incoming radiation if climate change became too much of a threat. And there's no question that climate change will present a significant risk according to our own military given our energy needs.
Regarding fear mongering... Well, it's usually done by those who have an accurate picture of what will likely happen. If we stopped using all fossil fuels this very second, we would still see a temperature increase through the rest of this century along with the increase in damage associated with a relatively rapidly changing climate. Meaning even if we stopped right now, it'll still get worse before it'll get better. And from all accounts, we aren't going to stop any time soon, so it's probably going to get much worse before it gets better unless we see some significant intervention on our part.

Trebuchet-
I've just been reading and enjoying everyone's rants, but I must take exception with your assertion that the US is "slow to give equal rights to targeted groups". Have you been anywhere else? France has no "equal right amendment" analog and the French can legally not hire people or rent/sell real estate to someone because of their ethnicity. Mexico expects us to treat illegal aliens as visiting ambassadors, but Mexico treats the Guatemalans jumping their southern border like criminals. And let's not forget the way most middle-eastern countries treat their women. Some say that "Islam" means "peace". Unless you're Christian, or Jewish, or... hell, anything but Islamic. They hate everyone. Their own clerics teach from the Koran that it's acceptable to treat "infidels" as cattle, to be used for the benefit of Islamic believers. Africans hate Africans (if they're from a different tribe) and that's the biggest obstacle to any kind of African unity.
And you think America is "slow" with equal rights? That the government systemically allows people of a preferred status to repress others? Do you have any significant data, or are you going by pictures in history books of "white only" and "colored" bathrooms...
Money is the motivator- the great majority of Americans are NOT bigoted or racists, and won't deal with companies with racist tones. How many times have you seen a PR guy fall all over himself at a press conference denying allegations of racism?
Jesse Jackson wants the color "black" to be stricken from Crayola's pallet of colors and replaced with "ebony" because black carries negative connotations. That's the pot calling the kettle.. uh, ebony. JJ called New York City "Hymietown" and never apologized, btw.
There is a great, big, whoppin' difference between "(racist, sexist, age-ist, same-sex-partnered-hating)" and "sensitive", and if you think the US is "slow" in granting equal rights, you may be a bit sensitive.
Ask a gay man in Iraq how HIS parade was. Ask a female rape victim in Jordan if she fears reporting the assault because her family may kill her for bringing them shame. Ask a Spaniard in France how the job search is going.
Then tell me how backward we are.
I think we've gone the other way. We have the Black Music Awards, and the word "niggardly" (sound slike but isn't anywhere near) got a white man roasted over coals.
Travel, see the world. When your passport is as well stamped as mine, we'll sit down and discuss how the US stacks up in the equal rights department.

Still, it could be better here. There are alarming cases of rape victims in the US being told by their family (cult/whatever) not to say anything. I think women still have to deal with various permutations of being blamed for that original sin crap every day, regardless of their own spiritual beliefs, and were even the last group given the right to vote. I would not mind if Hillary took the oval office just on principal, hard to imagine the next person could possibly do a worse job ;)