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-   -   A Belgian member needs help for a little problem (Civic Vx, D15Z1 engine). (https://www.fuelly.com/forums/f10/a-belgian-member-needs-help-for-a-little-problem-civic-vx-d15z1-engine-6590.html)

VEI 11-04-2007 07:58 AM

A Belgian member needs help for a little problem (Civic Vx, D15Z1 engine).
 
Hello, I am a newbie. I come from Belgium.

It?s difficult for me to speak in English, but I will try to do my best...
:o

My car is a 1994 Honda Civic VEi.

It?s a D15Z1 engine, as Civic Vx.

I have some little problems with the engine.:(


At low RPM (< 3200tr/min) and low load (I don?t know if it?s the good word, -> Low pressure on the accelerator pedal), I have a response time (lag ?) before the engine accelerates.
(I am pushing slightly on the pedal and nothing happens, during less than 1 seconde. Then, suddenly, it accelerates sharply).

I don?t have this problem when the engine is cold or high RPM or heavy load.

The ?check engine light? appeared 3 times this year. (Code 48, LAF sensor).


Did you ever had the same problems?:confused:

Are there links between the LAF sensor and my problems? Or is it 2 different problems?


;)

Danronian 11-04-2007 08:01 AM

Sounds to me like the LAF might be almost ready to be replaced. Is the sensor old?

A slight lag in response time for the lean-burn on the d15z1 is something I've come to be used to when driving my civic.

SVOboy 11-04-2007 08:02 AM

It sounds like there might be a link between the LAF and the lag, can't be sure, of course, but that's what it sounds like at this point. The lag could be caused by bad o2 readings not delivering the proper amount of fuel quickly enough.

Welcome to the site!

GasSavers_TomO 11-04-2007 08:17 AM

It sounds like changing your LAF (Oxygen Sensor is also what it's called) is going to be a great starting point. Just be warned that it will be expensive as it is an L1H1 sensor. Your best bet would be to find one for sale on eBay from a seller that ships internationally.

VEI 11-04-2007 09:30 AM

Oh, the answers are quick on this forum !!!


Yes, I also suspect the LAF sensor.

I checked :
MAP sensor.
TPS sensor.
EGR valve.
LAF sensor.


I tried a other ignition distributor.

I have :
New air filter.
New fuel filter.
News Spark Plugs.
News ignition wires.


The LAF sensor has 165000km, like the engine.

The signal of the LAF sensor is good but impossible to control the response time.
And impossible to know if the value is not poorest in reality.

But I hesitate to replace this sensor. Some guys have the same problem with this engine but with a new LAF sensor (but I don’t know if it is really the same problem or a ignition problem).
And this sensor is really expensive.


Did you have the same problems (lag)?


I have two other little question :

What is the "clutch switch" (It is used to what?)

Is it normal that the engagement of the VTEC-E system is between 2500RPM (heavy load) and 4000RPM (low load)? In the documentation, this seems to be much lower...
https://img510.imageshack.us/img510/2601/vtecern7.png


My measurement (Voltage solenoid) :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfxgOPXx7H0

GasSavers_TomO 11-04-2007 02:09 PM

Your Vtec-E solenoid activation is in working order as shown by your video.

What brand and number is on the new spark plugs you have put in the car? The d15Z1 motor is very picky about plugs.

I can't recall the exact ECU pins, but I see you know how to use a Volt meter (awesome!). you can check the VX links in my signature and check the one titled "VX Lean burn Monitor". That will show you which ECU pins to connect to with the voltmeter and check the readout of the LAF. If it seems sluggish and takes a long time to react to the throttle change, it is getting time to replace it.

The lag that you described earlier was the same experience I was having with my VX when I got it. The LAF had about 280,000 miles (450,616km) on it at the time and was getting tired. It also had the wrong number plugs in it as well. I changed to the correct plugs and I changed the LAF and the lag problem was almost gone. There is still an inherent lag in the d15Z1 motor due to the nature of the lean burn cycle.

VEI 11-05-2007 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomO (Post 80035)
What brand and number is on the new spark plugs you have put in the car?

NGK ZFR5F-11 (In Belgium, i have the choice between ZFR5F-11 (stock) and ZFR6F-11 (warm climate).

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomO (Post 80035)
I can't recall the exact ECU pins, but I see you know how to use a Volt meter (awesome!). you can check the VX links in my signature and check the one titled "VX Lean burn Monitor". That will show you which ECU pins to connect to with the voltmeter and check the readout of the LAF. If it seems sluggish and takes a long time to react to the throttle change, it is getting time to replace it.

Thank you for this link. Very good.
I have made this control 6 months ago. But my Values seems to be a little bit differents. I will retry this week to be sure.

GasSavers_TomO 11-05-2007 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VEI (Post 80204)
NGK ZFR5F-11 (In Belgium, i have the choice between ZFR5F-11 (stock) and ZFR6F-11 (warm climate).

That's odd, in the US the stock plug in the d15z1 is NGK ZFR4F-11.

I know that my motor had the ZFR5F-11 in it when I bought it and that caused some hesitaion due to the wrong plugs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VEI (Post 80204)
Thank you for this link. Very good.
I have made this control 6 months ago. But my Values seems to be a little bit different. I will retry this week to be sure.

Great, glad to help out. I'm looking forward to your updated results.

Gary Palmer 11-05-2007 02:28 PM

Welcome to GasSavers. The clutch switch is a safety interlock switch which is used to make it so you have to depress the clutch, in order for the starter motor to engage. The switch is located under the dash, at the top of the clutch. (You can put a jumper wire on it, to bypass the switch/interlock, done.)

VEI 11-06-2007 09:37 AM

I have checked my LAF sensor.

My voltmeter was connected near the LAF Connector (not ECU). Normally this is the same voltage.


Sensor 2 (D14-D16) :

Idle :
https://img135.imageshack.us/img135/2...ralentidw5.png
Video :
https://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=hoUM8e7YIbI



Sensor 1 (D8-D16) / Sensor 2 (D14-D16) :

Acceleration :
https://img143.imageshack.us/img143/5...seaccelvw5.png / https://img256.imageshack.us/img256/8...igaccelmh1.png
Video :
https://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=J9agPyzWt9g / https://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=WQ5HQkI2Gn4

Deceleration :
https://img105.imageshack.us/img105/8721/d8dcelzm6.png / https://img135.imageshack.us/img135/7...igdecelhv4.png

Low RPM, low load (-> ?lag?) : The response of the accelerator pedal is not normal. The engine accelerates too slowly with some small hesitations (Except if I push harder on the pedal) :
https://img134.imageshack.us/img134/2...blchargid3.png / https://img134.imageshack.us/img134/7...gimelagke6.png
Video :
https://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=7GyrJYB14rY / https://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=BaqbkLXk4bs

Do you think that is too lean?:confused:


Just after ?lag? :
https://img138.imageshack.us/img138/3...prstrouui4.png / https://img138.imageshack.us/img138/5...restroubt2.png




Quote:

The clutch switch is a safety interlock switch which is used to make it so you have to depress the clutch, in order for the starter motor to engage.
I have this switch but I can start the engine without depress the clutch. :confused:

SVOboy 11-06-2007 09:39 AM

At that RPM could the lag perhaps be the VTEC kicking in?

GasSavers_TomO 11-06-2007 09:40 AM

Do you have NGK ZFR4F-11 spark plugs readily available? If you do, swap those into your car and see if the hesitation is reduced then.

I'll have to watch the video to see the response time of the LAF as I cannot watch Youtube videos at work.

VEI 11-06-2007 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SVOboy (Post 80370)
At that RPM could the lag perhaps be the VTEC kicking in?

At that RPM, yes it would be possible but I don?t think so.

Look this video :
https://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=IiTz8jA7fWM

(It is a climb). I push slowly on the pedal but the car doesn't accelerate, there are some small hesitations. Suddenly, with the same constant pressure, the car accelerates faster.
And no VTEC at that RPM (12 valves).


Quote:

Do you have NGK ZFR4F-11 spark plugs readily available? If you do, swap those into your car and see if the hesitation is reduced then.
I don?t know, this is normaly not the good spark plugs for Civic VEi. I always had ZFR5F-11 and no problem before.
I think that the spark will be better with ZFR4F-11, perhaps less hesitations, but the heat will be too high (bad for the engine).




And sorry for my bad English, I hope you understand what I want to say lol

GasSavers_TomO 11-06-2007 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VEI (Post 80407)
At that RPM, yes it would be possible but I don?t think so.

Look this video :
https://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=IiTz8jA7fWM

(It is a climb). I push slowly on the pedal but the car doesn't accelerate, there are some small hesitations. Suddenly, with the same constant pressure, the car accelerates faster.
And no VTEC at that RPM (12 valves).

That is the motor coming out of "Lean Burn" mode....looked pretty normal and a decent response time of the LAF to me.


Quote:

Originally Posted by VEI (Post 80407)
I don?t know, this is normally not the good spark plugs for Civic VEi. I always had ZFR5F-11 and no problem before.
I think that the spark will be better with ZFR4F-11, perhaps less hesitations, but the heat will be too high (bad for the engine).

Does your motor have a sticker on the top timing belt cover that shows the recommended plugs?
Like this (picture from my d15z1):
https://www.imagestation.com/picture/...9/e774941b.jpg
The lean burn really needs a hot plug to ignite the lean mixture well.


Quote:

Originally Posted by VEI (Post 80407)
And sorry for my bad English, I hope you understand what I want to say lol

Your English is very good! And your use of Youtube is a great help as well. Keep it up.

VEI 11-07-2007 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomO (Post 80496)
That is the motor coming out of "Lean Burn" mode....looked pretty normal and a decent response time of the LAF to me.

I don't understand why I have 1.3V in acceleration (low RPM, low load) and 1.1v in deceleration.
Normaly there are no injection in deceleration...

I think 1.3v is perhaps too much. I push the accelerator, so more air intake, but the car doesn't accelerate (like no more injection). I don't know if it's normal during "lean burn".

When I have bought my car, i haven't this problem.


-------------------------------

What is the english word for "air/fuel"? Is it "mixture"?

This can be rich or (???) What is the correct word : "poor" or "lean"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomO (Post 80496)
Does your motor have a sticker on the top timing belt cover that shows the recommended plugs?

Yes.
https://img260.imageshack.us/img260/3613/123bu8.jpg

GasSavers_TomO 11-07-2007 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VEI (Post 80661)
I don't understand why I have 1.3V in acceleration (low RPM, low load) and 1.1v in deceleration.
Normaly there are no injection in deceleration...

Upon looking over my lean burn thread, 1.1V on deceleration is a bit strange. One possibility maybe be a leaking injector, or having a high electrical load.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VEI (Post 80661)
I think 1.3v is perhaps too much. I push the accelerator, so more air intake, but the car doesn't accelerate (like no more injection). I don't know if it's normal during "lean burn".

When I have bought my car, i haven't this problem.

1.3V is normal "rich" for acceleration. I have seen it as high as 1.4V.

Are your driving habits the same as when you first had the car? How many kilometers were on the car when you bought it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by VEI (Post 80661)
What is the english word for "air/fuel"? Is it "mixture"?

This can be rich or (???) What is the correct word : "poor" or "lean"?

In English, we use the phrase "air/fuel mixture" or "air/fuel ratio". It can be rich, stoich, or lean.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VEI (Post 80661)

That is interesting that it suggests the ZFR5F-11 plugs on the sticker.

Could you please post the numbers on the side of your ECU for us as well? I am interested to see if the ECU version is different than the US model.

Thanks!

GasSavers_bobski 11-07-2007 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VEI (Post 80407)
I think that the spark will be better with ZFR4F-11, perhaps less hesitations, but the heat will be too high (bad for the engine).

As I understand it, that middle number is the heat value of the spark plug. Hotter plugs have a deeper well around the center electrode, reducing heat dissipation to the cylinder head which results in a hotter center electrode.
A hotter plug shouldn't cause the engine to overheat, though it's possible it could cause pinging. What's the typical octane rating of gasoline in Belgium?

VEI 11-08-2007 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomO (Post 80692)
Are your driving habits the same as when you first had the car? How many kilometers were on the car when you bought it?

66000km

Now : more highway.
But I doesn't have problems on highway because the engine is running at 4000RPM (short gearbox now).


Quote:

Originally Posted by TomO (Post 80692)
Could you please post the numbers on the side of your ECU for us as well? I am interested to see if the ECU version is different than the US model.

The Honda reference for my car is : 37820-P07-G02. Is it this number that you want?



Quote:

As I understand it, that middle number is the heat value of the spark plug. Hotter plugs have a deeper well around the center electrode, reducing heat dissipation to the cylinder head which results in a hotter center electrode.
A hotter plug shouldn't cause the engine to overheat, though it's possible it could cause pinging.
Yes, that's right.
Hotter sparkplugs : can perforate a piston.
Colder sparkplugs : fouling of the spark plug, bad ignition.

Quote:

What's the typical octane rating of gasoline in Belgium?
95 or 98.
For my car : 95.
What is the ocatne rating in US?


My sparkplugs, last month :
https://img126.imageshack.us/img126/9099/bougiessp5.jpg
That seems me too white.
Before, they were more gray.

garyhgaryh 11-08-2007 10:03 AM

plugs look good! It's a lean burn engine remember.

GasSavers_bobski 11-08-2007 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VEI (Post 80862)
Hotter sparkplugs : can perforate a piston.

I kinda doubt that, but I don't blame you for being cautious. You would have to be running lean under high load to get the piston hot enough to melt. Detonation can break the ringlands off the piston or occationally punch a hole in it, but that generally only happens with cars running aftermarket forced-induction (supercharger, turbocharger, nitrous) systems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VEI (Post 80862)
95 or 98.
For my car : 95.
What is the ocatne rating in US?

87, 89 and 91 are most common, but as high as 95 can be found at some stations.

GasSavers_TomO 11-08-2007 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VEI (Post 80862)
66000km

Now : more highway.
But I doesn't have problems on highway because the engine is running at 4000RPM (short gearbox now).

I didn't know that you changed the gearbox. Maybe you should list every modification you have done to your car so we have a clear picture of the situation.

Putting the original VEi transmission back in will help greatly with L/Km.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VEI (Post 80862)
The Honda reference for my car is : 37820-P07-G02. Is it this number that you want?

That is the number I was looking for. The G02 refers to the region and software for your computer. Since your region has higher octane gasoline, it is quite possible that you have different fuel and timing maps than our d15z1 motors in the US.


Your spark plugs are looking fine from the picture. Do you always use the same gas station to fill up? Sometimes if you change fill stations they use different additives in the gasoline that can change the coloring of the spark plugs.

VEI 11-08-2007 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobski (Post 80869)
I kinda doubt that, but I don't blame you for being cautious.

It was just a exemple with some very bad sparkplugs (too cold), not with NGKZFR4F-11.

The sparkplug becomes too hot, then auto-ignition, ...
It's just some theory...

But I prefere use "stock" sparkplug for the moment.

Quote:

I didn't know that you changed the gearbox. Maybe you should list every modification you have done to your car so we have a clear picture of the situation.
Ok.

Engine modifications (not maintenances) :


66000km : I bought the car.

70000km : K&N air intake.
https://www.japancar.fr/forum/garage....d&image_id=782

80000km : NGKZFR6F-11 (no difference)

98000km : Remus exhaust (rear silencer)
https://www.japancar.fr/forum/garage....&image_id=2785

110000km : The problem begins.

12000km : NGKZFR5F-11

135000km : D15B2 4-1 exhaust manifold(so, now, no catalyst). The engine become more nervous when I push on the accelerator, so I feel more my problem.
At high load, I use a litle bit more fuel for the same distance.
https://www.japancar.fr/forum/garage....&image_id=4237

145000km : short gearbox
https://www.japancar.fr/forum/garage....&image_id=5384

VEI gearbox :
3.250
1.761
1.172
0.909
0.702
3.722

Short gearbox :
3.250
1.900
1.250
0.937
0.750
4.250

160000km : NGKZFR5F-11

165000km : Now.

Quote:

Putting the original VEi transmission back in will help greatly with L/Km.
To my amazement, The engine consume not more fuel for the same distance and same driving (Except when I push hard on the accelerator).


Quote:

Originally Posted by TomO (Post 80885)
Do you always use the same gas station to fill up?

Yes, for +-2 years (+-45000km).

1993CivicVX 11-08-2007 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VEI
To my amazement, The engine consume not more fuel for the same distance and same driving (Except when I push hard on the accelerator).

Is this true cruising on the highway? What is the majority of your driving? If it's city, short gear box will get you better FE. If it's highway, short gear box should get you worse FE. Although to be honest I never understood why since at higher RPMs the engine is outputting more horsepower per fuel consumed, so is at a much less fuel enrichment ratio at say 4000RPM as compared to 2700RPM when it's near full enrichment most of the time trying to maintain speed. But then there's the whole issue of amount of gas used to just have the engine turning at the higher RPM.

VEI 11-09-2007 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1993CivicVX (Post 80904)
Is this true cruising on the highway?

Yes.
Before, the engine was running at 3200RPM (130km/h) and now 3900RPM. But I must push less on the accelerator. Now, when I am in a climb, the engine load is low.
But if I often pushing hard on the accelerator, the engine consume more fuel that before.
Quote:

Originally Posted by 1993CivicVX (Post 80904)
What is the majority of your driving?

80% highway.
20% city.

VEI 11-10-2007 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomO (Post 80692)
1.3V is normal "rich" for acceleration. I have seen it as high as 1.4V.

But I have read this : https://www.gassavers.org/showthread.php?t=2429
Quote:

Originally Posted by NickF829 (Post 36507)
at cold, i e a -0.8v readout

at idle after warmup between +.25v and +.3v

whats strange, when just maintaining 60mph w/ hardly any throttle, i get between +.93v and +1.05v

when slightly accelerating while already at 60, the readout goes to -.25v to -.29v

.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by bugsih (Post 38779)
update... I put in a brand new o2 sensor and now my readings are +.6 to +.7 volts when in lean burn. the readings are lower than the old sensor(old sensor +.79 to +.85 volts) I haven't noticed any gas mileage increase with the new sensor...

My reading is higher (1.3v) !!!

And I don't understant why it's so brutal when I quit "lean burn"...
Normaly,the enrichment is more progressif, no?

And I have read this : https://www.gassavers.org/showthread.php?t=3835

Quote:

Originally Posted by James (Post 56506)
I put a new L1H1 O2 sensor in my VX today........
It seems to run more smoothly in lean burn now. It used to miss a little in lean burn before. It can smoothly accelerate from 1200rpm, which is a great thing. The transition between lean and regular is less severe. It also seems to have a little less power when you give it some throttle now. I also reset the ECU so that may have something to do with it. .....

It's seems to be the same problem !

ThirdeYe 11-13-2007 09:31 AM

I know the motor isn't very similar but in my 1995 Acura Integra LS (Honda Integra over seas. Honda B18B1 engine) I've been getting the same issue you have, a bit of hesitation before power kicks in. I can floor it and it'll just kinda move along slowly then you feel the power punch in as if there was turbo lag or something. The car's all stock except NGK (Blue) spark plug wires and relatively new NGK plugs. The ZFR5F-11s as specified in the manual and on the valve cover. Think the O2 sensor is the cause? As far as I know, the O2 sensor on my car is original and it's always been in a climate that favors rust. The car has 132,638 miles on it. I've never had a CEL on the car, so I'm not sure if that's the problem or just the way the automatic transmission works.

Gary Palmer 11-13-2007 06:18 PM

If you aren't driving a VX, then your car should just take a regular 4 wire oxygen sensor. You should be able to get a new replacement for $50, if you DIY it. If your car is at 132,000, I would just go ahead and change it. The CEL does not always pick up a marginal sensor and the response time on the sensors get slower, over the miles.

On VEI's car, he needs to get a new sensor, as well, but since they run $350 or so, he doesn't want to do it, unless he is 100&#37; certain and it isn't bad enough to be 100% certain. He could get the $79 unit, but if other peoples experiences are any indication, it very likely will throw a CEL code, until the car gets warmed up.

You should double check, on your sensor, to make sure it's the 4 wire unit, not the 5 wire LAF unit.

ThirdeYe 11-13-2007 06:49 PM

I'd do it myself but I'm worried about it being rusted into the catalytic converter so badly that I won't be able to get it out myself. Sounds like it would probably need a good dosage of PB Blaster to get it out. Sounds like a project for next summer for me :) My mileage is still above EPA average without much effort so I'm still happy with that (averaging 29mpg in mostly city driving, rated for 21 in the city, 24 combination)

GasSavers_95civicvx 12-14-2007 05:44 AM

Was it an O2 sensor, after all?
 
My VX is going through the same thing...and getting rougher all the time. I'm thinking it's the o2 sensor, but I'll double check on the plugs just to be sure.

Tambien, si vous voudrez practicer votre anglais avec moi, je voudrais practicer me francais avec vous. Merci, et bon chance!

usaqmuri 01-05-2008 02:39 PM

i think its coming from lambda sensor
 
how you resolved this problem?
i have civic d15z1 vtec-e and this problem too :( .
this kind problem have all vtec-e engines.
i think its coming from lambda sensor

VEI 03-16-2008 10:44 AM

Hello.

I have solved my problem :)

I've replaced the lambda sensor (LAF).

This is not a new sensor (2006 but only 10 000km).

I have bought it in France and it cost me 35EUR (+-55$), shipping includ.

Sometimes, at low load, I have a little lag when the motor coming out of "Lean Burn" mode.
But I think it's normal.

:)


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