my Metro wrecked by red light runner
 

Hey folks, not such good news. Happened the day after Xmas.

This accident put both my parents in the hospital. My mother got it the worst with a broken ankle and cracked ribs. She will be released from rehab tomorrow.

I was driving. We were on a state highway, speed limit 60, coming up on a traffic light that had turned green about 10 seconds before, so we were catching up with all the traffic that was accelerating from the stop. All of them had made it through the intersection, and I was slowing down to match their speeds, when I saw this car on the cross street approach from the left, and noticed he would have to make a hard stop, and mentally shook my head about wasting gas. Never dreamed he wouldn't stop. Returned my attention to the cars in front of me, and then the next thing I knew, he'd run the light and the side of his car was in my face! T-boned him going about 45 mph. Totaled both cars. His was an Audi A4. No question about the light, was solid green my way the whole time, for many seconds and cars before the crash and for several seconds and cars after we'd come to a halt.

Several things to say here. If we'd been in a massive SUV, they would've been hurt much worse, maybe even killed. Perhaps they deserve it, as the whole thing was their fault, but I think not. Everyone makes mistakes. Some even make really stupid mistakes. Sometimes the punishment is death, and a Darwin Award is handed out. But if it doesn't have to be death, let's not have it be that. Of the 3 teens in the other car, only one was sent to emergency, with a deep cut. All those people who say bigger = safer, I say that's selfish safety. You have maybe made yourself a little bit safer at the expense of making everyone else a little less safe. And if everyone else goes big to equalize, then you're back where you started on safety, and behind on FE.

Yesterday, I finally bought another Metro. 2001 LSi, auto tranny (again, sigh, but must have the auto). Metros are hard to find. This was the only one I saw on cars.com within 200 miles. And, even after the dealer knocked off $1400 from their initial outrageous price, it still cost $1000 more than the 1999 LSi I bought just 10 months ago. What's going on, why the big jump in price? Even Kelly Blue Book says my '99 Metro is (was) worth a lot more now than what I paid 10 months ago. Maybe gas price spikes have that much of an effect on the prices of used fuel sippers.

* * *

And lastly, I read a bit of the long thread on our health care system. It is an unbelievable mess. I refused treatment-- was only bruised and didn't want any preexisting conditions dogging my health records.

The problem with our health care is the very costly constant wrangle over what treatments are really necessary, who is going to pay, and who gets burned at the stake whenever there is a mistake. The incentives are all wrong, pushing people to try to cheat at every turn, and scaring them into extra CYA tests and work of very little value, in order to avoid blame.

The hospital is like a shady repair shop trying to tell you your car needs a complete overhaul when all you brought it in for was a filter change. They won't wait for the insurance company before trying to shake you down for a bit of money. They send out all these very august looking statements and bills to you, your insurance, Medicare, and anyone else they think might feel an obligation to pay. If you're ignorant enough to pay, you're screwed. The insurance company will then blow you off, and it'll be a real battle to get reimbursed. You will have also overpaid the hospital, because the rates they charge you are the inflated ones they cook up, and tell you you're supposed to pay 10% or some such of that. The insurance (if you have it) always goes over the charges and adjusts them downwards, and only then do you figure out how much you portion is. Hospitals cannot be trusted to properly bill people.

Then you get the thrilling fun of mud wrestling with insurance companies. After they've second guessed and denied the doctors, they turn around and deny you too. Nice.

To deal with everything, you may need an ambulance chaser. And what does the lawyer get? 1/3! One freaking third of all damages awarded! What a huge waste of money all because doctors and insurance can't agree on anything and have far too much incentive to gouge, withhold, and otherwise cheat.

bzipitidoo -

Sorry to hear about all you've been going through. I get terrified when I imagine my parents being injured in an accident like that.

CarloSW2

Very sorry to hear about your accident. Have to say I agree with your assessment on all accounts.

We have a med pay policy up to 10k. It was simple process. My wife was hit, she declined to ride the ambulance. The next day she went to see a chiropractor. She simply gave them the insurance information and they worked it out. The rental car was annoying because no one wanted to foot the bill until the police report got released. They only allowed us one week in the rental too. One week to replace a car is ridiculous. It took 6 weeks to find the saturn.

you(she) were very smart to see a DC. they really see the spine(trauma) more comprehensively than an MD. i recommend that ANYONE that has been in an auto collision to see a DC.

Bravo! Well put!

Later I talked to a lawyer who told me from a court ruling standpoint you should always see an MD "because md's have much higher standard of training" and that the opinion of chiropractor was not well reguarded by the court system. My wife got near instant relief using the chiropractor. No pills, xrays, shots,etc. She was pregnant so a trip to the ER would have produced nothing more than a prescription to a "baby safe" painkiller.

Sorry to hear about your crash, and especially your parents.

But, really, "selfish safety"? I don't have the words to express my incredulousness.

It wasn't supposed to be that hard of a concept. Maybe you meant obtuseness? ;)

Sorry to hear about the crash, being a fellow ex-Geo owner I know how it feels to loose one. Having ridden motorcycles since 1980 and bikes many years before that, I have learned to expect the unexpected and just keep out of the way of anything moving. We have an over abundance of 4 way stop signs in Newport and the occasional 2 way stop that they sneak in that can have a simular effect - you think they are going to stop and they don't have to. I have seen a lot of red light runners here when crossing the street too.

Sounds to me like you're just looking to fight.

Didn't you have enough of being a jerk on that Troll Thread you started?

Wow - no good. Sounds like a big-time hassle in the aftermath, too...

LOL, your words are beyond my comprehension :)

That really doesn't surprise me, since the only sounds you appear to understand are the sounds of your own voice.

Go get laid, get your prescripts renewed, or something. Quit bein' such a downer on everybody.

You need to get out more.

Quit waving MY flag around and acting like an idiot, like you don't know the difference between right and wrong!

Mr Incredible -

It makes sense on a lot levels, "better you than me" being only one of them.

CarloSW2

If some people want to volunteer to throw themselves under the bus in a fit of moral superiority, fine. Far be it from me to stop them. But, not me, thanks, and the moral superiority would certainly something to disagree upon.




Thankfully, Skewed, the flag belongs to all of us. Even obnoxious pukes like you.

Naming ones self "Mr Incredible" is just the obnoxious sort of thing an insecure puke would do.

wow that sucks about the car. I know how much the 1 week rental car thing sucks. when I got sandwhiched in my 86 camry they gave me a week to find a car with $650 they gave me for the old one. best thing I found was $1300 and I had to take a parent-loan.

as for the thread-jacking...so far I agree with everything said against Mr incredible. only insecure wankers or stuck up jocks would name themself something like 'mr incredible'. even mid-size cars are massively out of proportion of safety, economy, and interior space. that and modern SUVs aren't any safer than a modern mid-size except there's a bigger chance to roll over and they waste more gas.

this is off subject, so it will be my last post on this thread...

i believe what Mr. Incredible is trying to convey is that this(USA) is still the land of the free and freedom to choose what we purchase is our right. perhaps many of us do make bad choices, but who ELSE should be able make decisions, like buying a car, for us?

as far as the screen name, i think it's cool. besides incredible is relative...incredibly what? humble, handsome, harry?

where i work there is comradery among the drivers that produces playful name calling such as "superstar","big money","hero", etc. but that involves enjoying the company of others and making friends along the way. some here, it seems, would not understand that concept.

suggestions of arrogance or insecurity are WAY out of line, especially since most of us have not met. judgements passed, if at all, should not be made on that premise.

My turn....

Off the bat,,, sorry for the wreck. They suck big time!

But you made mistakes. NEVER EVER take your eye off the cross traffic. MPG, lights, traffic and all need to be looked after. You have control of whats in front of you. And the ablity to react to behind and side if your aware.

As for the medical issue. It wasn't your fault. Use judgment and do as you want. You did not cause the wreck. So seek the best. If the party's concerned dont want the treatment,,, refuse.... its that damn simple. And as far as Doc's are concerned. Its BULL**** if a court wont listen to and look at any trained person of the body. I wouldn't be walking if it wasn't for a bone popper. And for the record Im a DO supporter. And they DO stand up in court. As does my bone popper. Dont listen to a friggin Lawyer. There like insurance company's. They are only out for them selves's.

Skewbe,,,, Once again you drag out the $5k dollar words and end up as empty as your gf if you have ever had one. You really need to get some life under your belt. You really need to get some life experience....

Mr. I,,,, rock on :)

I'm just here for the FE tips and to offer anything I can do to further the cause.

I knew there were long-hairs here, but, having disassociated myself from them since I got my hair cut 30 years ago, had no idea they'd become so violent in their hatred for All That Consumes. It doesn't surprise as much as it disappoints, as it's contrary to what I remember it to be.

I don't care for the likes of Skewedbe, who hasn't a kind word for anybody and makes me think he stands around striking muscle poses in a mirror after he "slams" some punk who dares to disagree with him. Long on conceit, short on depth.

Perhaps it's the political season drawing out the long knives, or maybe it's Winter Fever. Can't we all just get along?


As for insulting my handle, well, how petty of an argument is that? As if it matters, I got the name from the movie, The Incredibles. But before you dis the movie Mr. I, remember that he drove a FE car...


https://us.movies1.yimg.com/movies.ya...son/bobcar.jpg

So this argument is over the sentiment expressed in the original post?

Is there something fundamentally wrong with that statement? Or is this argument being driven by the egos that the statement dented?

If you don't want to look like a flamer, attack the subject matter, not the poster(s). If you can't do that, maybe you should examine what drove you to attack in the first place and whether it's justified.

safety arms race
 

Now, fellas, don't sink to name calling. Keep the disagreement civil. There are many, many reasons and risks to choose among. Would it be better if I call it the "safety arms race" instead of "selfish safety"? It's like nations choosing whether to buy missiles. Many don't, and save a lot of money, but increase the risk or apparent risk of being attacked. Some do spend, but don't get good results. Saddam Hussein's Iraq vs. the US was rather like an SUV bought for crash safety reasons that met an 18 wheeler. Iraq supposedly had one of the biggest armies in the region. Hussein's behavior was like that of a cocky teen in a game of chicken who thinks air bags make him invincible, and who also thought the 18 wheeler would surely swerve at the last minute. There are studies showing that for many people, knowing your car has airbags causes you to be a little less careful with the driving.

Safety is such a universal part of life. Some increases in safety can be had very cheaply indeed, and a bigger car might seem like just such a no-brainer cheap investment in a little extra safety. But there is always a tradeoff. Apparently safer from crashes in exchange for possibly less safe for the environment and your children's future, and also less safe from auto thieves. Do you put burglar bars on the windows of your home? Safer from burglars, but less safe from fires. Burglar bars have something in common with this safety idea from the '50s, the "deep dish" steering wheel. The idea was that in a collision, the steering wheel would meet you at a greater distance from the steering column, thus reducing the likelihood you would be impaled. Just plain better to have an airbag than a "deep dish". Similarly, better to move to a neighborhood where burglary is uncommon, or perhaps use alarm systems and sensors, rather than put bars on the windows. Possibly the most extreme in car safety has to be for combat like situations, where the user spends a great deal of money for bulletproof windows and bomb resistant armor and extra horsepower to move all that extra weight because he is in a dangerously lawless country such as Columbia.

Hello -

Might as well put these here ...

The Dangers of SUVs
https://www.bansuvs.com/dangers_of_suvs.html
Is Bigger Better? Vehicle Size and Driver Perceptions of Safety
https://www.transportco2.org.nz/Attit...safetyjrad.pdf

CarloSW2

To recap, the thought of selfish safety led me to express my disbelief that somebody actually said that.

Then Skewbe pipes up with his usual shinola. I'm not dented in any way, ego or otherwise, and shouldn't expect anything else from him. His hatred and corrosiveness just gets tiresome.

And the information posted about the evils of SUVs is only more of the usual stuff from the sandal-wearers and earth-first crowd. More of the same that brings about a "selfish safety" comment.

No, our differences are simply two different world views that sometimes can meet in the middle. Sometimes not. More not lately, I think. It's sad, really, that it all too often seems to turn out that way, but we are who we are. I don't want to hear yours any more than you care to hear mine. Any brand of Assumed Moral Superiority is grating to those who aren't followers of that cult.

My sincere apologies to the originator of this thread for the defacto hijack. It devolved quickly. But FE is not just for the hemp wearing crowd. SUVs serve a purpose that you may not require, but just because you don't want it doesn't mean it should be forbidden. And just because we wouldn't agree to live the lives of the others doesn't mean we can't keep Fuel Efficiency a little more the main topic.


I'd rather talk about nuts and bolts than world-view any day. Cheers.

I don't have long hair, I don't wear sandals, my car has the same engine as a supra so don't call me a hippy. I'm just calling it like i see it.

nuts and bolts: I've driven the range of vehicles allowed without a CDL (and once or twice vehicles that I shouldn't have) and worked at car dealers as well as owned econoboxes and trucks. I don't care what you call it...safety arms race, selfish safety. larger vehicles are not any better in bad weather than someone who knows how to drive in it. I can do circles around a 4x4 SUV in the snow in my 5-speed RWD (relatively light) car. as far as crashes go, the big SUV just makes a bigger hole from inertia and is more likely to roll over.

and as far as I'm concerned he is pretty insecure because when logical arguements are given, he just resorts to name calling and denial. "I have evidence X, Y, and Z against your opinion" "no...you suck"

Bull. We are who we choose to be. Individuals may have pre-dispositions to certain behavior, but only the most imbalanced, dysfunctional or weak willed of individuals would be unable to overcome those predispositions if they chose to do so. Stating "we are who we are" attempts to elevate individual will (or lack thereof) to the level of a force of nature - something that cannot be reasoned with.
If someone is in the moral wrong and stubbornly refuses to self-examine or even consider changing their ways, those affected by the wrong have every reason to be angry with the stubborn individual. Just saying "we are who we are" is an attempt to halt examination - An attempt to ignore the problem at hand rather than following through to a resolution. Such a cop-out stinks of guilt - the person speaking knows they're in the wrong, has an idea of what the resolution would be, doesn't like it and so tries to push attention away from the subject.

I say again, attack the subject, if you can.

Well, then, Bobski, perhaps I didn't explain things to your satisfaction with the phrase, "We are who we are." Doesn't it shine through to anyone that has gone through the idea that it really IS "We are who we make ourselves be?" Sometimes you guys think too much and work too hard banging on things until they fit into shapes you like to look at.

And exactly who is the stubborn one? Me for not agreeing with you or you for not agreeing with me? Neither, of course. We're both right. We're both wrong. We deal with what we can and ignore the rest. I don't like to fight so much any more but that doesn't mean I can't voice disagreement with a concept. Everything doesn't have to be a fight to the death here, does it?

Selfish safety? I disagree. Culminating in an arms race of size? Naturally limited by by money and availability to the masses. Not everybody has the ability to drive a shopping cart at WalMart, let alone a commercial-sized truck. SUVs are the automotive equivalent of the Sam Colts equalizer. Even the little lady can be a safe as the big cowboy. Should everyone be equally safe or should everyone be equally unsafe? How about in the real world?


And, puh-leeze...no need to analyze me by your inferences from a few sentences/paragraphs. There is SO much unsaid. You'd have to come over and have a home brew or ten with me before you'd even start to know who I am. You wasted your time.

I think those of us who gravitated to this site share more than we disagree with. Or we should believe so, anyway, whether we save energy to be cheap or so save humanity.

Kamesama, what constitutes a logical argument to Doomsayers and End of The Worlders doesn't necessarily constitute logic to the rest of the world. One would have to assume true the initial idea that SUVs are evil and should be ripped from the hands of their drivers for any further discussion thereof to be valid. I don't.

1. Environmental change and it's causes and effects are not your call.

2. Driving a tank in traffic would be classified as sociopathic behavior. Suv's driven for "safety" follow the same line of thinking.

3. The louder you get the more insecure you look. Give the nice gentleman his thread back, please?

In terms of this thread, technically, you started it. I was in 100% agreement with bzipitidoo's post, but in deference to you and others that agree with you, I didn't emphasize that part of the post in my reply. My opinion wasn't worth starting another flame war. If you search around, you will find older threads on GasSavers where this issue has been hashed out ad-infinitum. Sooooooooo, being incredulous in the context of the older threads is kind of "incredulous" to me. If you disagreed with what bzipitidoo was saying, why not start (or find) an (already existing) SUV practicality thread? You can get your opinion off your chest in a way that doesn't drag this thread down into the mud.

CarloSW2

There are advantages to both small cars and large cars coming into a potential accident situation. Generally speaking, a small car will be able to stop more quickly and manuever around a hazard. This of course is not true in all cases, but I would guess that the stopping distance from 55mph in my civic is shorter than that for a crown vic or explorer from a similar year.
If an accident occurs, you will be safer in a larger vehicle, unless you are in a truck, van, or suv, which have higher rollover rates if you swerve, have a blowout, leave the road or hit a guardrail at the wrong angle. Larger vehicles cause more damage to any object they hit, so it could possibly be considered selfish to drive one.
SUV's can be very efficient under certain (unusual) circumstances, like hauling 5-7 passengers and cargo, hauling passengers and a trailer, etc. In fact an SUV could have even have a low environmental impact if it was only used to haul full loads. If you stuff 6 people in your jeep cherokee that gets 20 mpg (ive done it), you are getting better mpg than 6 people driving solo in their vx's getting 60mpg.

As I recall, I simply disagreed with a single statement in a long story. Then another member jumped on me.

But how could it possibly be bad form to disagree with something somebody says in the same thread in which it originated? That would erase quite a portion of the threads here.

Did I stumble across something allowed on the side of the Anti-SUVers and not on the other? Is s a forum for Haters of SUVs and Consumers only? My apologies, but I didn't see that sign posted anywhere.

Mr Incredible -

I think that the Pro/Anti-SUVers are equal in blame. I have two modes. If you ask me how to improve MPG on an SUV, I will answer one way. If you ask me my opinion of SUVs, I will answer another way.

I can see your POV. Saying that you are "incredulous" isn't an attack per se, but it can be interpreted as being in poor taste when it comes to the subject matter of the thread. It can also be considered an oblique attack. It's verrrrrrrrry easy to read the tone of your comment as "Are you nuts? How can anyone think that way?!?!?!?". Do you deny that sentiment when you wrote those words?

There are certain things I don't post because I *expect* to be attacked by people that share your POV. It's a judgment call as to how much of my time I want to waste on the issue. As far as I am concerned, you can post anything you want until a moderator says stop. But don't be surprised if you in turn are called to task along the way.

But, when this stuff happens, how or even if you respond, is always your choice.

CarloSW2

cfg83, seldom do I become overemotional. I do deny saying what you may think you heard.

The more days I live the less I'm surprised by the people around me and the...variety...of opinions. I have worked my way through/around/across & back from/to many of them. I'm a hippy at heart from the 60's & 70's, but have enough experience and grounding to have largely removed my head from the clouds. I try to see both sides, but I do not subscribe to the opinion that my driving an F250 is any more dangerous than a teenager in a CRX. I believe it's more HOW you drive what you drive that it is WHAT you drive, safety-wise. Nor am I any more likely to do that thing anti-SUVers are so fond of predicting (rollovers) than many cars, since I don't do those things daily that so commonly cause rollovers to occur.

So, no, I do not agree with the mindset that I am behaving selfishly in my satisfaction of having something large around me, though I bought it to do truck things.

I rather think it may be more selfish to wish less safety on those that choose it as a way of making me feel better about my world view and that everybody is equally unsafe. Rather socialistic, I think.

Seems like a weird time to state that you would have killed them if you were in a SUV (just quessing at best) and infer some who drive SUVs are being selfishly safe at the expense of others. I am sorry you had an accident and if it were me I would just be grateful things were not worse. The implication that you sacrificed your own safety and the safety of your family for the sake of FE is well...just ridiculous. You drive a small FE car for just that reason...to be FE...saving fuel. I am sure that you didn't get the Geo knowing that one day you would be responsible for the non-death of people in another vehicle while you were at the wheel of your Geo. I sometimes get tired of the arrogant attitude some take to what others drive. For all you know some were given a vehicle and they are doing the best with what they have, others made a choice based on thier needs (not your needs or adjenda), for some it is a choice of do I trash a perfectly good vehicle for the sole sake of FE (that is a waste of already expended energy and resources) or for whatever reason a person purchases a vehicle. A SUV driven carefully is much less of a weapon (or tank for some) than a econo car driven like it was stolen (like a missle for others). It is all a matter of inches when you are on the road in circustances like you encountered. You seem to give more forgiveness to the drivers of the other car even tho they ran a light than SUV drivers that had nothing to do with your accident...Does that make any sense?

I have already been told several times that we might have fared better had we been in a bigger vehicle. Those comments were generally delivered with an air of wondering if such a traumatic event was enough to get me to see the light and come to my senses and buy a bigger vehicle.

I have no problem with people who drive SUVs or trucks for sensible reasons. The safety angle however is totally bogus, and those who picked a large vehicle for that reason alone are only kidding themselves, and those people I do have an issue with. I certainly did not get the Metro so everyone else would be a little safer from me! In this particular case, if that made the difference between that red light runner living and dying, that's fine with me despite that he deserved to win a Darwin Award for his reckless disregard of safety during the operation of a motor vehicle. I have heard one of the job hazards of being the operator of a train is that on occasion people will commit suicide by jumping or driving on the tracks in front of an oncoming train. Even though the operators cannot possibly be at fault and no one blames them, they still feel terrible and traumatized after such an incident. Speaking selfishly, I'm relieved I don't have anyone's death, however well deserved, on my conscience.

I merely refrained from letting fears of crashes stampede me into accepting the common but incorrect wisdom and buying a large vehicle. Accidents are rare, and accidents where more size and mass mattered are only a small fraction of all accidents, and must be balanced against those accidents where the size and mass worked against the victims.

Those who get an SUV for safety reasons are bad enough. They get to see over all the little cars, but the drivers in the low cars can't see around them, how safe is that? But when the SUV owners have picked such a vehicle so they can practice their aggressive driving with greater safety to themselves, then I'm angry. And that is what so annoys us about SUVs. Just enough jerks in SUVs give the rest of the SUV drivers a bad name. They start getting pushy with the driving, cutting people off, pushing the envelope on edgy moves because their car keeps them "safer" in case something happens, and copping an attitude that little cars better get out of their way because if the little guy plays, he'll lose the game of chicken. A bit more than a year ago, while driving my Festiva, my mother was hit by just such an SUV driver. She was in the right lane on a 6 lane divided road and this SUV came up behind her, swerved left around her and then cut back in front of her a little too soon. Bumped his rear wheel off the corner of her bumper. Damage was superficial, just a few scuff marks, but the police came to do a report, and this jerk started screaming about how she might have bent the axle on his vehicle, and blaming her for the whole thing, etc. As for the mild mannered polite SUV drivers, is there a one who hasn't once yielded to the temptation to use their size to unfair advantage? Did anyone see the Tom and Ray column, just last week, about this woman who confessed that "upgrading" to an SUV turned her from a nice considerate driver into a monster? To the extent that SUVs enable and encourage such antisocial driving, we dislike them.

I had a big old SUV honk at me like 1/3 of a second after the light turned green the other day. I got out and went back to ask him if everything was OK, if I needed to call somebody for him, that I was concerned that he was in trouble because he had honked, etc. Kept him and his wife there for like 5 minutes LOL :)

exactly! Anticipate that everyone will break every traffic rule. Its saved my butt numerous times. expect people to merge over when your next to them or them to merge infront of you when they enter a highway deff expect people to run stop signs or slide thru them when wet or snowy. (guilty of that luckly noone was anywhere near me:rolleyes: )

just remember there is a time and a place for everyhting, when going thru intersections even if u have a right of way just pay attention to the road and especially if anyone looks suspecious of being a darwin contestant:p

Would have been hilarious if he was a LEO wouldn't it? :p

Jim