Because it's an import!
 

Question. Why is everyone so hung up on imports being better? Be it Asian, European, whatever. I'd prefer a car from the big 3 way before pretty much any import being offered today.

I was reading the new motor trend and it has the stats for a bunch of head to head comparisons. The one that spoke to me the most was the 2009 BMW M5 vs the 2009 Cadillac CTS-V.

Cadillac won, it's easy to see how too. It has a supercharged 6.2L 16 valve V8 making 556hp @ 6100 and 551ft/lbs @ 3800 while getting 14/19 MPG. Not bad! The BMW has a 5L V10 making 500hp @ 7750 and 383ft/lbs @ 6100 while getting 11/17. I'd take the CTS too. That has to be an amazingly awesome sedan to drive. Not to mention it's 30k cheaper than the beemer.

Other comparos:
2010 Chevrolet Camaro 3.6L 17/29 vs
2010 Hyundai Genesis Coupe 3.8L 17/26
They said at higher speeds the Camaros extra 100 pounds started to show.

2009 Ford Fusion 2.5L 23/34 vs
2009 Honda Accord 2.4L 21/30
Their acceleration numbers are really close with the Fusion only lagging behind in the quarter mile by .1 seconds but .4mph faster.

2009 Ford F150 5.4L 14/18 vs
2009 Toyota Tundra 5.7L 13/17

It should be noted that Motortrend most often prefers the imports.

I always assumed that a lot of that attitude is a legacy of previously bad American cars. I have no idea what the current overall state is. How is globalization effecting the domestic/import definition split anyway? The Chevy Aveo is what I'm thinking of.

I suspect that the Daewoo-built Aveo is a piece of junk that does a disservice to GM's overall reliability statistics. I am not confident that Daewoo has stepped up their game to match Hyundai, American companies, and Japanese companies.

my personal opinion is the branding that honda and toyota have made for themselves and the good mileage to power ratio of most of their cars.

the corolla is an awesome example. rated at 130+ hp and still gets 35+ mpg on the highway along with room for the whole family.

honda has the civic as well. don't know the exact stats for that.

there is a guy here at work that has a 2008 corolla S which has ground effects but more importantly 5 speed manual. he rags on me because I have tried so hard to get my 38 mpg best and his last tank was 43 with virtually no effort at all. you aren't going to get that from a domestic other than maybe a hybrid. his corolla was also 17K brand new which beats the crap out of all the hybrids pricewise too.

I do like domestic, don't get me wrong but it seems like in the small car market, they are lacking. if you have ever driven an aveo, you know what I mean.

Based on the research I did on it, I'm inclined to agree. Ironic that they seem to have sold so many of them! But does it count as an import (built overseas) or a domestic (marketed and backed by GM)? I guess since most consumers will just remember that it was made by Chevy, that it counts as a domestic.

they make hondas and toyotas in the states.

I can't remember right off hand where their factories are but they make them in the good old red wite and blue.

....but they are still imports???

Last I read the 4runner and rav4 were still made in Japan. That's why the rav4 still has a rear gate that opens the wrong way! But most of their vehicles are made here in America... Assembled here anyways. I guess my main question is why everyone is still hung up on them being the best. It's not like their mileage is the best, their performance is usually at least matched by a domestic in the same platform and it's not like they are uber cheap in comparison.

As for the Corolla mileage. I'm betting he's yanking your chain:
https://www.gassavers.org/garage/viewgaslog/1304?
https://www.gassavers.org/garage/viewgaslog/1310?
https://www.gassavers.org/garage/viewgaslog/2399?

I guess what it boils down to in the end is the continuity of design, manufacture, and support that a company provides from model to model. That's all the maker's label boils down to ultimately. So, in that spirit, how much continuity is there in practice?

dk,

if he is yanking me it is unintentional. he is going by the onboard mileage computer. I would assume that is pretty accurate. in his defense, his drive is about 95% highway

he is actually a pretty good friend of mine though he thinks what I do is a bit out there. but then I get to pick on his jeeping hobby. that has cost him a pretty penny in a lift kit and a welder (he ususally uses that to fix everyone elses though).

*edit* here are some real world numbers

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/mpg/MPG....rue&details=on

he did admit that last year he barely broke 40

I consider it an import...

I suspect you are very correct.

consumer reports is high on them as well. doesn't mean much really, 'cause a consumer's view can be more perception than reality.

the GM dexcool fiasco certainly hurt them(and the intake gasket failures). i've heard in years past, Ford's transmissions on FWD vehicles had issues. also electrical problems seem to be fewer on imports.

what about manual transmissions? don't imports offer more of them(by % anyway)? it's fairly reasonable to assume enthusiasts drive mostly MT right?

could be many variables at work on this...conspiracy.

Where's the money going? With American-built import marques, ultimately, the money's going overseas, therefore, it's import. I would wager that GM's Aveo is sending a fair amount of money over to the Koreans as well. Plus, I can't help but think that even though a lot of import makes assemble here, they're still using imported subassemblies made of imported materials from imported suppliers :rolleyes: not to mention the incentives that localities often give to attract the factories in the first place...

As to why imports are more highly regarded...a lot of this reputation was built in the 80's when much of it was true. Anymore, I find all cars to be on a very low plane of quality (plastic? bleagh...), but more or less equal. Still, the imports work very hard to retain this notion of superior quality.

FWIW, we have had only one Japanese car in my lifetime, an '04 Toyota Sienna. It was the second most problematic vehicle we had behind my Mom's New Beetle. We traded that Sienna at 20k miles and never looked back. OTOH, the most reliable car we ever owned was a VW Passat - 5 years, near 60k miles, and not one single solitary problem. Weighed 3800lbs with the AWD and made a lifetime average in excess of 22mpg.

Then there are cars that are a chop job of American and import stuff? We had some '96 Dodge Caravans carrying Mitsu 3-litre V6's with a Mitsu trans...the only stuff that ever went wrong on them was stuff related to Mitsu's powertrain, although they were el-strippo models with nothing much else that could go wrong anyway.

It's no secret that Consumer Reports has consistently "reported" that Asian automaker's vehicles score higher than the Detroit 3. They use two sources of data - the tests they conduct on vehicles they purchased at a retail dealer and based on the experience of their readers/subscibers. Over the years, the ratings have been accurate. I have owned mostly Detroit 3 vehicles in the past 35 years and have driven 11 different vehicles. I can state from personal experience that the two Hondas I've owned have been the best cars. I have also owned four Chevrolets, two Dodges, one Buick, one Renault and one Toyota. Only once did I have a major engine problem and that was with the Buick which I repaired myself after finding out what the heck was wrong with it (plastic intake manifold cracked due to the EGR vent pipe - what a bad design that was!!!). That was the only engine I experienced hydrolock with. Boy, that was fun - NOT!!!!

Ultimately, no single person can be the judge that Asian cars are superior to those from Detroit. You know the old saying - if your neighbor is unemployed it's a recession, if you are - it's a depression. Similar logic applies here. Just because you bought a lemon doesn't mean everyone else has.

I have become somewhat skeptical about Consumer Reports ratings lately. The Detroit 3 have closed the quality gap with the Asians. Unfortunately, they have done this with their SUV's, crossovers and trucks - which I'm not buying. My next car will be a 2010 Prius or some other true hybrid. The new Honda Insight was a big disappointment in my opinion in that it is only a mild hybrid. Maybe Honda can atone for that screw up with the CR-Z and make it capable of driving at low speed on electrical power alone.

Don't forget the context of this thread: It's about reputation, not about where the money goes. For that purpose, a car is mostly considered per its badge.

That is true. Most people aren't going to follow the money trail. Heck, the Aveo had been out for 3 or 4 years before even I learned it was a Daewoo-built car...

I didn't even know Daewoo still made cars til this thread!

I've worked with a few of their computer monitors. Those things were horrible. half of them would randomly lose sync and need turned off and back on. Weird.

One of my rifles is a Daewoo. Seems to work fine. Not that it translates in the slightest.

My mom has a Daewoo TV/VCR...

AFAIK, Daewoo is alive and well, selling cars in Korea. The Aveo is the Daewoo Kalos or something like that.

Speaking of Daewoo, I saw a Daewoo Leganza on the road today... Makes me wonder, did they not sell many, or were they such total crap (Like the Hyundai Excel) that not many are left on the road?

-Jay

I own 2002 Monte Carlo, and a 2002 Honda Civic Si. Both are very reliable. the Monte has 206,000 miles on it. the Civic, only 100,000 or so. I dont drive the Monte

Thinking about it, I don't know that I've ever seen a Daewoo in the puck and pull.

Because momentum takes generations to overcome!

Yah, 30 years ago the imports may have had the edge. I don't think they've had that edge for several decades at least, and yet people hang on to their ideas even without any facts or evidence to back them up. Another good example would be: warming up the family truckster. Sure, when Grandpa did it, it was a good idea... but it's been a bad idea for at least 25 years now, yet millions of idiots still do it.

BTW I've had imports and domestics. I think there are certain "eras" from certain mfgs that are better, but overall, I don't think one is better than the other. I do like older VWs but the new ones- I'll pass. Japanese cars from the '70s and '80s were just as bad for rust as any crap GM ever put out. I have several Fords with WAY more miles on them than the Toyota I had accumulated before it was junk.

It's hard to tell where the money is going these days. There are a bunch of "imports" that are built in the United States that use a higher % of domestic parts than a lot of domestic automakers use. And you have to consider that even when Toyota makes a car in Japan where is the money going back to?......the investors. Of which I would guess that the majority of investors in Toyota are American.

I think the perception came from the 80's and 90's when the cars were better.

I've seen the chevy c-10 and cavalier with 300+k miles on them, but in my experience those tend to be the exception and not the norm. Whereas the norm for imports is 200K miles without a major overhaul.

How much quality variation is there from model to model within the same brand?

I work at a shop fixing cars and I'd rather fix (and own) jap cars all day long than deal with domestics. Imports are designed better on average. half the domestics are designed by monkeys. chrysler/dodge are usually designed by monkeys on drugs.

there's also the issue of my size. I'm 6-4 230 lbs and I've never had trouble fitting in the smallest of imports after adjusting seats. some of them have small blind spots but overall not bad. I don't fit for sh*t in domestic small cars and some mid-size no matter how much adjustment there is. then there's the blind spots that could hide a semi... I almost got in an accident at work the other day test driving a car in the parking lot because there was a car behind the enormous A-pillar in a newish saturn.

euro imports.... very nice cars. it, off an assembly line, will run longer than the hand-built chevy (caddy CTS-V). the seats are nicer, and there will be fewer electrical bugs to be fixed. domestics have brought up quality enormously in the last 5-10 years but they still just aren't the same. Euro cars (unless designed to be worked on by stupid american mechanics like about 1/2 of VW line) you need a degree to figure out WTF is going on and a week and $10k in tools to fix anything....should you ever have to.

Another reason I drive a car nearly double my age.

I kinda like working on my domestic, and it's a Chrysler! Aside from that front sway bar's bushings which frustrated me to hell because it's a 1.325" solid piece of spring steel that needs pried into place and there are some metric and some SAE bolts/nuts, I've had no trouble working on my truck. Plastic snap-in tabs don't break like in my other cars and everything is pretty straight-forward.

UNLIKE the steering rack in the Cressida. I thought I was going to set that car on fire it pissed me off so bad. I think I just didn't have a handle on what I was doing or something. I hated working on that car. The Tracker wasn't so bad because the engine was tiny in that huge engine bay. I'm 100% positive a small block V8 could have fit in there with room to spare.

Well I can pick and choose examples of things that are easy to repair on imports and domestics and things that are a bear.

However, if you want to pay a premium in purchase price, parts, and service yet only have an average quality vehicle, get yourself a VW or a Cadillac.

I too am 6'4" and there is no way I fit in several cars, including RX-7, Miata, and retro Thunderbird. I have ridden in and driven several "high end" cars that had less comfortable seating than my "lowly" Tempo.

Nope. You don't always get what you pay for.

The same goes for my Buick... Many times people have wondered why I still have that car, and then after they ride in it they know why... It rides like an overstuffed couch.

With plenty of cars, you're paying for an image and nothing else - and that's exactly what you get. Mind you, that doesn't include all (or even most) expensive cars or all cars that carry a specific image, but there are certainly plenty of examples where you don't get anything in addition to image.

A low-end Mercedes model that I test drove once, for example...I couldn't imagine why anyone would want to drive it, let alone why anyone would want to pay more for it. The only things I could find in it that someone might consider valuable were the name and the fact that it was a station wagon.

Older Cadillacs (including a 1993 that my mom had) actually delivered value for those not interested in image. I don't know about new ones, though the CTS puts out some decent numbers as a sports car (doubly so for the CTS-V). VWs probably do cost a lot for parts, but purchase price is competitive and I've found a dealer with great service; and bigger people fit in their small cars (which is why I chose it). My VW really delivers a lot of comfort and fun for a decent price.

That's what it's all about for me. My Mom's VW New Beetle was bar none the most unreliable car we ever owned, but the service dept. at our dealer was so accomodating that it actually became one of the most painless cars we've owned as well. That's also why I chose to buy my Harley at a dealer 160 miles away from where I live instead of the dealer here in town - I can actually talk to them!

I think the problem with higher end, more expensive vehicles is that they have more gadgets and gizmos, which as the car ages break, and are expensive to fix. Stuff like air ride, computer controlled suspension, automatic air conditioning... The lower end vehicles don't have this stuff, and therefore it doesn't break...

Take for example, power locks. I've had to fix them in several of my vehicles as they aged, but my Buick which does not have power locks obviously doesn't have that problem. I also have had to have power windows fixed before, but again in my Buick, the most I've done is replace a broken window crank.

With GM cars Oldsmobile and Cadillac were the 2 lines that they usually experimented with new technology on, and therefore had the most expensive problems to fix. There's something to be said for not having the latest & greatest.

-Jay

Y'all are making all of my arguments for what I drive for me! One of the reasons my next DD is going to be a '60-'63 Falcon is because it has no fanciness!

Now, I heard somewhere that BMW 7-series cars have something on the order of 75 computers running the thing?! I can't imagine for what...but anyhow, along the lines of this post, I would love to see some figures down the road of the 7-series' upkeep costs.

That BMW sounds expensive when it gets older. However, the average BMW buyer probably gets rid of the car before its 5 years old, so that is probably never a concern to them. Its the person who buys it as a used car that will have to deal with that.

The fancy stuff breaks. Its just that simple. My truck has the electronic pushbutton 4wd. I have had no problems with it, but my brother inlaw tells me that if you don't use it regularly that the 4wd won't work when you need it. For that reason I make it a point to engauge 4wd at least once a month.

-Jay

I'm pretty sure that's not just with electronically controlled transfer cases, but in fact is true of all 4wd systems.

He says its like a power window motor that switches the transfer case. If not used regularly it will collect crap and bind up. I usually take it once a month in a heavy rain, and activate 4wd high on a straight stretch of road and drive for about 1/2 mile, just to keep everything moving freely.

-Jay

Gotta love the manual t-case! I used my 4wd to get out of highway traffic(closed the freeway because of a 'suspicious package') off the freeway the other day cuz it had rained, first time I needed it in town.

That has to be an auto t-case only thing as I don't see how it is possible with a manual. Then again, I have to slam my shifter into 4 low(which I know the previous owner never used) for it to stay but I think it just needs a linkage adjustment. It reminds me of a friend of mine's 89 Sammy. His dad bought it and the previous owner said he never used the 4wd and I couldn't for the life of me get him to use the 4wd because his dad said it would probably go into it and never come out again.

I am not a fan of manual transfer cases... My old squad had a 1989 Chevrolet ambulance built on a K3500 chassis. Getting that truck into 4wd was a chore. I could never do it without grinding gears. What I ended up doing was putting the truck in 4wd before I started the engine if there was snow or ice outside.

-Jay