Buying a new car: go for the highest EPA milage or the highest potential hypermilage?
 

Well, it's been almost 3 years with the Subie wagon (that I never got over 29 mpg, got disgusted and took another tack toward fuel conservation: I moved into town and parked the dang thing.) And finally I think I'm going to be getting another car.

Budget is small: less than $4500, really closer to $3000, but that's what we have to work with.

90% of my driving now is in town, trips under 5 miles but over 1 (and right now it's too darn cold to walk much of anywhere) and my top speed is usually under 40mph. Once a month or so I'll take a 1-2 hour excursion to the "big city".... which is either on the freeway, or on state roads... 50mph speed limit, with several small towns that require you to slow down to 35mph.

So, as I see it, curb weight is a big deal, I need to seat 4 and a hatchback would be nice. If my speeds rarely reach 55mph I guess aerodynamics are less of a concern.

So having said all that, what are your favorites?

Geo's are almost impossible to find around here (that aren't rusted into swiss cheese), Honda's are super popular with the kids here (there are still kids who just "discovered" the Fast and the Furious movies... Civic abuse is rampant) and Toyota's are rare (no dealer in the area) We have tons of Neons, Cavaliers, and Escorts... most have seen less regular maintenance than a paper coffee cup after the coffee's gone. This is the land of "Piss on Chevy/Ford/Dodge" stickers in the back of truck windows, and anything else tends to be ridden hard and put away wet.

I think it might be a good idea to extend my search out of the immediate area. :rolleyes:

The first item to be installed in the new car will be a block heater (this is Vermont folks, it was 3 degrees Fahrenheit this morning), then a scan gauge, followed but an ignition or fuel cut switch for engine of coasting/stoplights.

But that still leaves me with the question of what makes/models to look for.

(really I want a Miata for everyday and a minivan for the once a month I-need-to-carry-more.... but I don't think that's gonna happen)

Any ideas?

Thanks
Mike

The car that gets the best mileage also means most potential for hypermiling as well. Instead of focusing on the rust, maybe you should focus on how to deal with the rust problem because all the cars there are going to be rusty.

Point #1: Stick Shift. Enough said. Hope you know how to drive one.

I keep hearing good things about Escorts from fuel economy fiends.
And since they don't have any "hotness" for most people, I think you can get them cheap.

Civics are nice - keep your eye out in CraigsList and you might find one that hasn't been molested. HX and DX will get you the best fuel economy, my opinion.

AAAAAAAMEN. And no more power steering/brakes if I can help it.

That's a pretty high likelyhood, there's a strong set of Ford dealers in the area and a fair amount of Escorts to choose from. Did they stop making hatchbacks or am I just not noticing them? The ZX-somethings that have the Taurus design ethic look pretty slippery, if not very attractive IMO, but the rear end seems to drop WAY too fast to hold laminar flow. But what the heck, it's going to be for slow, short hops anyway.

Definitely the most attractive option that I know of so far... even if I would be tempted to flick-drift it all winter long. :rolleyes:

Rust in this area really varies from model to model, the salt spray is pretty specific in direction and some cars are well sealed there, and some just aren't. Hondas aren't bad, Camary's are great. Saturn coupes are almost impervious (even the metal underneath, they just hold up great around here) but Metro's?

*sigh* They die a quick, holey death. Much worse than most with the same miles/years. Sad, I love the little things. Same with the older Escort wagons (not the hatchbacks, specifically the wagons), there are tons in the junkyards with 60k miles because they rusted past the point where they could pass inspection.

Solution 1: Move to California. Rust problem solved.
Solution 2: Come to California, buy dead Metro. Buy rusted out but working Metro at home, combine the two.
Solution 3: Make friends with a welder, fabricate rusted out parts.

You'll want 1996 or newer cars for their OBD-II compatibility. The lighter the car and the smaller the engine, the better your chances are for decent hypermiling. SOHC Saturns return some great mileage. Your short commute and cold temperatures are never going to let you see your car's full potential. I'd bicycle in the summer for 5 mile trips.

My VX started well this morning at 3 deg. I would look for a good vx from the south. It would be worth the travel for a rust free car. If the body is in good shape everything else can be replaced. I parked my truck last winter and drove the vx every day, it was great in the snow.

This. As far as I can tell it can make up for a 50% disadvantage in EPA rating, or provide a 50% advantage in actual results over an equivalently rated car.

And this.

Why do you want to save gas? For the environment/oil supply/not supporting oil-funded terrorist organizations, or for your own savings? If for your own savings, I would say to skip worrying about fuel economy entirely. With how little you drive, sacrificing purchase price/condition/whatever for FE will never pay for itself.

As I understand, Escort parts and repairs are some of the cheapest on the market, so if market value on them is decently low that might be the best choice. However, look at what's on the market with an open mind, look for trends to see what's in high supply and low demand.

MOM! MOM! He's picking on me! And he used the "C" word too!!!!!
(I used to live in LA, then later in Florida. I miss both, a lot)

Actually I am making friends with a local body shop owner, *maybe* I'll be able to find some help in fabricating the wheel skirts and belly pan. That'd be nice. But I'd like to start with something that's not too far gone. The rust in the Subie2 could be fixed easily, the transfer case that needs a rebuild, the the struts that are shot, the other susp. parts... well it's gonna be 2-3k by the time I'm done. If I liked the car, fine. But... well it's just no fun.

On the bright side, most of the dealers around here get their vehicles from southern auctions, so they do exist.

And I'm still searching for those 2 metros... it's been 3 years, but I ain't givin' up. But this car has to come up quick, i.e. by the new year.

97-09 SC1, SW1 and SL1's are on my short list. The 2000's are kinda the sweet spot in the line it seems. But considering the short trips I've been kind of wondering if there is something else that does better in that kind of environment (besides having to learn some new techniques for driving in town).

The 3cyl Metro Wagons seem to be the best. I want to say the little Suzuki and Fits but they just don't seem to be posting numbers to match their size (and I have no idea why).

Oh, and the bike? That's why I moved to town, :D my backyard now abuts the bike path... which leads to work in one direction and downtown in the other... all right along the lakefront. It's groomed for XC skis in the winter, and my studded bike tires really mangle the trail for the skiers, so I try to stay off it during their season.

The occasional long trip to MallWart or Burlington lets me play and do some Hypermiling for numbers, but right now I need to figure out how to optimize the day to day hauling kids and groceries around.

Hey VMF

Where are you in VT? It's good to hear a local voice in the fray.

Why? Yeah, I admit the politics are in there under the surface, but the major is saving a buck. Since moving the miles really have dropped... but I've also cut my shopping (for socks, and anything more than that) to once a season to save gas. (We can buy lumber and hardware locally, but the closest real shopping is @70miles from here. I would really like to make the trip more often (and have a fookin' life beyond this dear little province).

The cost of parts on Escorts is a really important note: and well appreciated. I wonder how they compare with Saturns/Toyotas/Nissan/Hondas in that regard. My local mechanics tend to like "domestics" best. Ford, Chevy, Chrysler, because there are dealerships in town and guys that have been factory certified to work on them, so they can ask questions and get help from each other. Me? A Rabbit/Golf/whatever-it's-called-now sounds sweet, as I had one and LOVED it, but local mechanics are less than enthusiastic when one rolls in the door.

Compare curb weight, horsepower, displacement, etc. It's tough even for Honda to compete in modern times (i.e. 2004) with the FE golden age (i.e. 1994).

I looked at your gaslog...you drive more miles than I guessed from the first post in this thread. You must do a LOT of little 5 mile trips every day.

Yeah, it's worth making fuel economy a bigger priority than I thought.


Maybe someone else remembers the thread, I can't find it, but IIRC some good evidence was posted that the Escort had the cheapest parts cost.

It's got a few quirks that I hate, but I mostly love my 2008 Rabbit. It definitely is great for hypermiling potential, take a look at my gaslog...

I'll pick on ya again...but I'll try not to say "California" this time...

I looked at your gas log. Looks like, if that is your typical driving habits, you are traveling <10k miles a year.

10k miles @25mpg=400 gallons. About $1200/year at current prices.
10k miles @40mpg=250 gallons. About $750/year at current prices.

Savings per year (assuming stable gas prices)=$450. Years until you make back in fuel cost savings what you paid for higher mileage car: @$3000/car, 7. @$4500/car, 10.

Unless I missed something, there is no intrinsic problem with the Subaru. So, unless it no longer meets your needs (you need to haul hay bales, you do a lot of yard saleing, your family has outgrown your car, etc.) seems that you would be money ahead to just keep the Subaru.

Now, if you just WANT a different car, then the world is your oyster...

EDIT...I just realized that I had missed some of a post...I guess there are some major issues with the Subaru...So maybe it does make sense to replace it.

Yeah, the Subie's sick. shocks/struts, transfer case (or rear transmission or whatever it's called) tires, brakes... and daylight through the sheet metal. It won't pass inspection without about $3-4K of work that I can't do. Hanging on to it for the past 3 years has put me money ahead... much of that isn't reflected in the gas log. The reason that the posts are old is because I pretty much cut out the driving after I moved into town.

But I love driving, I love going places, I love driving as an art. (my brothers and I played with Formula Vee, Formula Ford, Formula Continental... I was the driver in the family) And I miss having a car that responds to the driver's input. In my case, that means milking "x" amount more out of a gallon via driving technique; for me, that's where the fun is.


But you are right on the point of economics: as it is I'm spending less than $35 a month on gas... (and that's sub 20mpg-- I've cut my driving a lot) that sure beats a car payment and having to carry full coverage on whatever it is. So the issue is saving money... because it's fun for me. If I enjoyed driving a full size truck or SUV, that'd be one thing. But for me it's like driving a fork lift around Watkins Glen... no matter how great the course is, there's just not much in it for me.

Besides, I can't drift the Subie. I've tried and tried but it just won't kick out, can't pull chicks these days without the bid D. :cool:

Er, ok, if your gas bill is $35/month (I see, your gaslog is old) then the TCO calculation (or the TCO guess) can be done without figuring in gas at all...purchase price, repair costs, and insurance.

To be honest, I say buy what excites you and fits your budget. It's really not a demanding application.

Now to me that sounds like fun...especially with a load...maybe a spotter on a motorcycle...

**coffee through the nose**
ok now, that's there's funny

I dunno if this is true. A 5th gen civic VX has less hypermiling potential than a 5th gen Civic DX. That is, a DX is easier to get a high percentage over the EPA rating than a VX.

Edit: get a car that is stick shift that has no power steering or power brakes. This way you can EOC like the dickens and save mad fuel because the engine uses so much fuel when warming up. You'll want to do longer trips now and then to keep the battery from running down tho, ('specially in winter) My pick would be 5th gen Civic VX, DX or CX

Could also be a good idea to invest in a battery charger to charge the battery up every few days if you are doing predominantly less than 5 mile trips.

Not so sure on Saturn longevity...seems they have a lot of engines burning oil and failing prematurely.

sorry deleted that seemed a little blah but since we're talking about it.. saturns dont have holes for oil drainage, so if you keep up on the oil.. they will last to 500k my last ones' engine died at 200k cause of a loose spark plug at neg 7 degress F, those who drive saturns and dont check oil kill them... its my belief that saturn has rigged these cars to burn oil since it is a fact that they lack good oil drainage, but this can be alleviated by using synthetic, adding oil... all said, my deleted post stated that saturns have hig highest ratings among american cars and highest crash ratings among american cars, and handle damn well in and out of the snow...(with right tires)+(cheap parts cause theyre everywhere/american) compared to a ford escort which you'd never catch me behind the wheel of after I saw one careem a barrier at an intersection last summer... SCREW (old, 1998 and older) FORDS,(unless they have serious handling upgrades/have master wobblmeister behind the wheel)