Tests
 

Saturday, I left home at 0345 to deliver the boxes to the people conducting the testing at Lathrop High School, some sixty miles away. At 0530 my task was completed and I returned to home and bed and await the pick-up of the completed test materials at 1930 and take them to World Courier Ground in Burlingame (near SFO) where it was palletized for shipment to ???someplace for grading. Got home by eleven.

Teachers. Teachers are tested at least annually for competence by the group we deliver the testing materials to, so they can administer tests all year long.

So why does California produce the least educated students in the 57 states?

because California needs to just break off and sink already haha

im not exactly sure how the first half of your post corresponds to why california kids are dumb and why i need to know the time stuff happened...

what kind of tests, what kind of teachers, what grades they teaching?

every school ive ever been to (from gradeschool to college professors) we've had to do either teacher evaluations or achievement tests.

Precisely. If the teachers are competant, and presumably that means they can teach the fundamental school stuff, at all grade levels, the question remains, why did California schools drop from best in the nation to worst?

i'm kinda split on this one...

teachers AND parents share the blame or credit, depending on the results. my kids attended(they are now home schooled) the same county i did as a child. i had mostly wonderful teachers who actually cared. the same schools now have mostly teachers that are collecting a pay check and waiting on a pension.

my parents did almost nothing to help me except in regard to reading--THEY DIDN'T HAVE TO. neither of them graduated high school, yet they both were able to attain wealth thru hard work, integrity, and frugal spending and saving.

teachers claim to be under paid. REALLY?! for what they're paid(starting), i could easily survive on alone. obviously w/ kids, a spouses income would be needed. so unless we're talking single mothers getting no help from the ex, it really is a false premise. the times i went to pick up my kids, i saw MANY new vehicles in the faculty parking lot--a huge percentage trucks and suvs. of course the perception would be as underpaid when one has a $500 car payment plus higher gas, maintenance, and insurance costs!

maybe cals large % of inner city schools play a role. can we blame single mothers for not being able to help their kids at home(working late hours, 2 jobs, etc)? could parents make better choices and stay together?

it's mother's day, so i'll blame the fathers that leave home and the teachers that underachieve!

Puerto Rico, Guam, American Samoa, U.S. Virgin Islands, Midway Island, D.C. and Wake Island...they're now states? :)

But...to answer your question...if California was once the best in schooling children, what has changed? Discipline in the classroom? Discipline at home? Involvement of, er, parents in their children's education? Just the times?

Here's a little story...when I was about nine years old or so, I was riding home from school with my dad. (I had to stay after because I was really bad at arithmetic). We were driving through La Ca?ada, and we came upon a sign that read "Equestrian Xing". I knew what "xing" was, but I didn't know what "Equestrian" meant. So I got an explanation of what an equestrian was, and a little information on the derivation of the word, from Equus, latin for horse.

I haven't seen an "Equestrian Xing" sign in many years, just a picture of a guy on a horse. While it may be more universally recognizable, I think something has been lost...

when i took my kids out of school, i wrote the school board a letter stating why we made our choice. in the letter contained a VERY short list of the teachers that i thought cared beyond their paycheck. i explained that the board needed to interview said individuals for the sake of the county, but more so for the children!

gotta realize one thing: the teachers alot of you (especially the "older" members - no offence) were of a different breed that grew up in a much stricter time. new teachers nowadays were born in the 80's and were prolly raised by parents that grew up in the hippie generation. totally different than the after WW2 generation that your teachers were.

also gotta remember the discipline has gone way down. teachers cannot touch a student for any reason. if a student comes home crying or mad the parents obviously always side with the kid and never see it from the teachers standpoint.

most families both parents work especially in the lower income areas they HAVE to work. and as some of you know your tired from work and dont feel like doing 4th grade math problems haha.

so really i dont know who to blame or if there is any one party to blame. i think its just the way society has gone.

also especially in CA the Hispanic population has skyrocketed, they may not be able to speak let alone understand English enough to be taught stuff and thier parents my be too busy working to teach them or dont understand themselves so they struggle through school thus lowering the states rating

first of all, my mother is a teacher. she is about 3-4 years from retirement. she is truly getting a paycheck. the kicker is why.

in the last 5 or so years of teaching she has either been or seen:

-(been) almost sued for breaking up a fight (wasn't thanks to the union)
-(seen) a coworker arrested on school property in front of students (he was a teacher)
-(been) told that she should give the advanced (AP) classes to the new teachers and then questioned about why 75% of her tech math class was failing which consisted of mostly seniors that didn't need the class to graduate.
-(been) told that a student could dress anyway they want to and nothing sould EVER be said about this (by the parent) after the student was sent home by the principle for violating the dress code (very relaxed dress code I mght add)
-(been) told that she should make more effort to let a parent know when grades are coming out after sending a letter, emailing, and calling the residence to let them know that report cards are coming (this is done for ALL the students at the school)
-(seen) drug deals go down and was told not to say anything or better that she didn't see anything (was told by other teachers and principle)

my mother works in north carolina but the problem seems to be everywhere. the accountability has been shifted to the teachers and off of the students and guardian (be it parents or others). my mother teaches highschool math and every year, the math department divies up work. which classes each teacher will get. she told me that she doesn't fight for classes anymore. here scores are the lowest in the school but she teaches all lower level classes. she says that every so often, she will get a student who actually cares but struggles. she says those are the ones that get here through. most either can do the work and chose not to or care so little that she can't tell if they could or couldn't.

all this and her salary is about what a fresh-out electrical engineer makes. her salary being for a teacher with 20+ years of experience. both occupations require 4 year degrees but to teach, you must also have a teachers licinse and continued learning (a given amount of credit hours per year throughout your entire career)

the last time I checked (and it has been a few years) fresh-out teachers were starting around 27-30K annually (the equivalent to a shift manager at your local micky-Ds)

I made more than that as a fresh-out 10+ years ago with a 2 year degree.

i'm sorry to hear about your mother's vocational issues. our situation is quite different. my kids are(were) in elementary and middle school and there weren't dress, drug, and violence issues.

my kids were mostly A/B students, and we had issues dealing w/ the teachers not teaching, as well as not monitoring/disciplining other students. everywhere they go be it the doctor, dentist, school, etc our girls are complimented on their behavior. i think this was the issue--the misbehaving and struggling students got most of the attention.

when my kids would come home and ask for help w/ ENTIRE pages of homework...well you figure it. other parents observed the same. you're correct tho when stating that the teachers do not want to get involved. and i can imagine that left unchecked, high schools would become pretty bad as a result.

BTW, i just checked my local teachers pay scale...$32k to start, 44k avg, and 62.5k high end. i stand by my statement that they're not under paid. i could live on that.

(just to set the record straight, my previos post wasn't directed towards bowtieguy but more a general rant)

the issue for me about being underpaid is that there are other proficiencies that require the same amount of education (and sometimes less)and the income potential is so much more along with less responsibility and accountability

where I work, a starting EE design engineer with a bachelors degree and zero experience comes through the door at 55k. in 5 years (depending on ability) can easily crack the 6 figure mark.

my mom's starting salary was 25ish years ago so I don't know it and it really isn't relative. her salary now is just above a beginning engineer.

my old supervisor told me that he checked into being a teacher when he was in college. he said the numbers were about what they were now. it really is a sacrifice to be a teacher. I think now the fresh teachers aren't doing it for the kids but more the stability that teachers have. that stability is nothing like it used to be but in todays market it is still better than most.

you are correct about the troubled kids. there is an old saying that we use around here. "the squeaky wheel get's the grease"

I don't think it is an issue of if they can live off of the money but more an issue of worth. these teachers are bringing up the next generation. they are teaching the ones who will be teachers, doctors, lawyers, truckdrivers, managers, even wal-mart employees.

I will admit that I am very biased on this subject since my mother is a teacher but I can also say that there are teachers on both sides. there are good ones and bad ones. there should be accountability but usually with greater responsibilty and accountability comes a higher paycheck. some teachers go through the motions and get paid. maybe it is good that I don't know teachers like that.

There are far fewer EE design engineers coming out of college than there are teachers. Engineering degrees take the same quantity of years but more work than any other degree...and the more work is also more difficult. Few people want to try, and fewer people succeed.

It is much easier to become a teacher than to become an EE and there are usually a lot more teachers looking for work. That explains the supply & demand economics involved in comparing EE salary to teaching salary. Also, EE's are generally producing profit, which makes it much easier to pay them well.

I agree that many modern teachers are probably in it for the stability.

I also agree that the issue of whether they can live off the money is not relevant...we could raise that issue regarding every job, but that's getting dangerously close to communism with the lack of incentive to try harder or do anything worthwhile. Why bother doing something more difficult, annoying, or risky for the same money?

When looking at teachers' compensation, it also behooves us to consider how much work they're doing. During the school year they work a LOT of hours off the clock; but on the other hand they have way more vacation than other professions have.

It's too bad we can't compensate the truly caring, hard-working, good teachers well while shortchanging the crappy, lazy, and apathetic ones.

maybe I don't think of the EE as that different because I work around them all day.

actually, between my last post and reading yours, several people where I work pointed out that there are so many people going to school to be teachers.

I think you said it best with your last statement

It's too bad we can't compensate the truly caring, hard-working, good teachers well while shortchanging the crappy, lazy, and apathetic ones.

the sad part is that the pay scale that they use currently is based on years and nothing more. the incentive to work harder goes out the window when it is no longer about the kids.


***edit***

one other thing though is that I foucused on EEs because that is what I am around right now(literally) but I have two sisters. one is an RN the other a dental hygenist. both 2 year degrees, both starting much higher than a beginner teacher salary. my brother-in-law is a construction project manager. that is a 4 year degree but 2X the starting teacher salary. another one of my brother's-in-law is a beer delivery guy with no education past highschool (though he does have a CDL) and makes more than a starting teacher, though marginally so.

I've always heard that if you are going to be a teacher, don't do it for the money

I agree that most teachers are there for nothing more than a paycheck. My son has a mild learning disability and is supposed to get modified assignments and classroom assistance. Two years ago one of his teachers wasn't giving him the modifications and assistance he was entitled to by federal law (IDEA), which in turn caused him to fail one of his classes. I filed complaints on the state and federal level and they sided with teacher saying we didn't have any proof. They asked if we had witnesses and I told them there were approximately 30 other students in the class that could verify it. Their response was other students couldn't be witnesses. If there's no one other than the teacher and students in the classroom how can you prove something if the teacher denies the allegations? My youngest son is graduating high school this year and I'm very happy we won't be having to deal with the public school systems any longer. If I'd had the education to do it I'd have pulled him out of public schools years ago and home schooled him. Even with only a 12th grade education I think I could have taught him more than he learned in the public school system.

and i didn't take in personally. even if at some point we do have differing opinions, no worries, you're my brother!

Fordman, i'm w/ ya. i believe that if more people could/would be able to get by on one income(not to mention avoid using public school as free baby sitting), there would be a mass exodus to home schooling. this likely would benefit the public schools by forcing them to compete.

to be fair, in regard to the "stability" factor, the same could be said of MANY govt jobs. when i worked for govt, there were guys, again, just collecting a paycheck and waiting on that pension. fact of life i suppose--just less frequent in the private sector!

I disagree that many people would switch to home schooling. Most would not want to, and are not equipped to do so.

If you can live on 32k/year (especially if you are married and the only income in the family) then my hat's off to you!

Parents need to be involved with their children's education. It's not the teacher's job alone, nor should it be. I don't think it requires pulling children out of school and completely homeschooling them, but education is a joint effort. (Easy for me to say...I never had any kids)

My only experience with people who home-school their kids are people who hold certain beliefs about the age of the Earth, and the origin of the species, which tend to conflict with the results of centuries of scientific research. This may not reflect the majority of those who home-school their kids, just my experience.

my biggest issue with home schooling is the social interactions (or lack there of). the seclusion of the children and not knowing how to interact with society.

ironically enough, one of the most mature young adults I have ever known was home schooled. in my opinion, he was the exception to the rule. his father runs a roofing business and he dated my sister-in-law for a while. he was 14 at the time.

another issue I have is qualifications. it is one thing to learn advanced math, literature, scinece, history...but to be able to teach it. I know I couldn't teach someone calculus (though I use it daily).

I have come to the realization that home school vs public school vs private school is more of a personal choice. some are more inclined one way or another by health reasons, social reasons, financial reasons and even religious reasons.

a buddy of mine worked at sheetz (a gas station chain) making under $15,000 a year. he lived on his own and didn't make enough to qualify for a credit card. it took him a few years but he saved enough to purchase a mustang GT. not new but he dropped about 8k on it and still had a buffer in the bank as well. he did live on hot dogs and ramen noodles.

***edit***

I found this article today and it fits perfectly. it is the worst paying degrees. education came in at #7 and #2. it is at least an interesting read

https://hotjobs.yahoo.com/career-arti...e_degrees-1263

yea i know a few home schooled people my age and either thier kinda shy/dont say much or thier extremely outgoing and talk to everyone about pretty much anything lol.

Then there is the out of pocket expenses. In lean times, education tends to be the first to get cut, leaving teachers to buy their own classroom supplies.

Good point. Lots of teachers do buy a lot of supplies with their own money, which I'll never understand...they complain that education funding gets cut, but then they cover it up. If little Johnny comes home and says they couldn't use the chalkboard today because there was no chalk, parents will want something to change.

perhaps you haven't heard of virtual school. EVERYTHING is online and there is teacher support. in fact, teacher/student contact is mandatory.

i meant that in the context of living alone w/ no dependents(in or out of home).

If I lived by myself, I probably could, also. And have savings. Ahhh....those were the days...(smiles and sighs wistfully...)

If teachers were paid like athletes and entertainers were paid....
what do you suppose they would earn?

I suppose the only way to pay teachers the same way athletes and entertainers are paid would be on some sort of commission basis...give them a small cut directly from their students paychecks. The more earning power their students ultimately achieve, the higher their teacher's pay. It would require a lot of record keeping, but in this day and age, that would be doable. I think it would be quite an incentive for teachers to prepare their students for success...

yea but those same parents are against tax hikes especially those without kids in the school system:rolleyes:

trust me ive been in classrooms where dry erase markers disappear and chalk didnt exist.

lol at my COLLEGE they were putting a limit on paper
yes regular ol photocopier paper:eek:

good ol f***ed up state of IL hasn't paid the school in a long while. pretty bad when an industrial electronics class cant afford wire so the teacher has to "procure" it through other means.:(

That was exactly my point. The parents are against paying more because they haven't suffered. If they see that there are real consequences when the school is underfunded, they might change their tune. Of course, it will only matter to the parents who give a damn, but there are enough around to make a difference. Those are also the ones who vote!

Those without kids in school will always be against paying more for school budgets.

I work in IT at a college. Copiers and printers are part of my job. Believe me, there are very legitimate reasons for that. Students print with zero concern for paper usage, worse than they save fuel when they're driving with someone else paying for their fuel. They print whole books because they need one page and are too lazy to ask how to print a single page. They print multiple copies of things, walk to the printer, and throw most of it in the trash without even looking at it. Etc.

A hard limit that cuts them off with no option would be bad, but something to make them at least think about what they're printing might be good, and better would be if they pay for their printouts.

However, it's not just for the cost of paper. There are outside influences that seek to limit our use of paper for environmental reasons. Additionally, as a college in today's world, it's important to make sure students are capable of using electronic resources instead of having everything on paper. When I attend classes and watch students use the computer to present a Powerpoint, I become very worried about the future of the world.

oops i should have been more specific: they are limiting it to TEACHERS, students don't have access to those printers. Pretty bad when teachers cant even print out tests or informational sheets:p

the printers the students do have access to its 10 cents a page for B&W 15 for color. we have our student ID/school account on a card that we swipe and if there is no money in the account it doesn't print. so the ones who dont know how to consolidate get charged more, i for one always bring a flashdrive with me and save whatever i need on that and bring it up on any computer:p

this brings up a good point about pay and EARNings. pro athletes often sign huge contracts and don't perform accordingly or as expected. some are "mis-scouted", while others simply don't have the work ethic needed to excel at the pro level.

point being that many times it really matters not what someone earns, but rather their work practices. i believe many corp and govt issues would work themselves out if the employees that made $30k/yr worked as hard as the ones making $300k.

don't throw rocks, i'm well aware of the elite earners that do not really earn their astronomical salaries, but the point cannot be denied--some individuals simply do not want to perform at a high level and subsequently succeed.

i can't tell you of how many guys that have complained to me over the years about pay and lack of promotion that PURPOSELY worked in a sub-par manner. i've met w/ teachers that gave me the same feeling. my dad always told me "you agreed to the pay and the job, right? well, do it the best you can or find something else!"

There are those that do as little as possible for their paycheck. However, don't expect the $30k person to do the work of a $300k one. Yes, someone might go above and beyond, but they won't do it for long without some form of recognition. For a few it that could as little a lunch or simple thank you. Most will be looking to make more than $30k. "You get what you pay for," applies to employees and services.

Back to the subject of teachers, our culture doesn't have respect for the profession. Once had a coworker who, while in the Peace Corp, was a teacher in Africa. There the community held teachers in high regard. Among the level of doctors. If teaching was more respectable here, you might have more teachers willing to do more to earn the respect. If more students showit, their jobs might be a little easier.

Back to the subject of teachers, our culture doesn't have respect for the profession. Once had a coworker who, while in the Peace Corp, was a teacher in Africa. There the community held teachers in high regard. Among the level of doctors. If teaching was more respectable here, you might have more teachers willing to do more to earn the respect. If more students showit, their jobs might be a little easier.[/QUOTE]

Which leads to the question of what would happen if teachers were paid under an 'open market' system, as opposed to a monopoly system as they now are.

it isn't a complete monopoly as you have private schools (religious and non) but you don't have the benefits that teachers that work in public schools have.

my mother started teaching at a catholic school when she first started teaching. she told me that if she had just started in the public school system, she would have been able to retire a few years back.

she also has medical benefits for life with the option to add my father when he retires.

"Benefits" is how they lock you in.