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-   -   drivetrain resistance (https://www.fuelly.com/forums/f8/drivetrain-resistance-1298.html)

bagpipe goatee 09-04-2005 12:02 PM

drivetrain resistance
 
there was already an article posted about tire resistance, but what about the transmission and engine? 88-91 hondas, which everyone here seems to have, has about 10w40 specified for the tranny. what about synthetic? they are supposed to have lower friction characteristics for the same viscosity, however as stated <a href="https://www.batterystuff.com/tutorial_lubrication.html">here</a> not all synthetics are created equal, having to deal with the stock they start out with, etc. I won't bore you with the details becaus they're on the site.

I have friends who race midgets, and they claim the best oil is amsoil, which is made here in wisconsin. I guess treat that with a grain of salt, but from looking it up, it looks pretty good. reccomended by a lot of people. of course, there is the standby mobil one, etc.

also, if you don't live in a blistering hot climate, you could probably bump your oil viscosity down a couple notches too, especially if you have a new engine.

but TRANNY's seem like they could benefit most from choosing the right oil. when was the last time you even changed the oil in one of those?

SVOboy 09-04-2005 01:29 PM

Hi!
 
That is an interesting question. I know some crazy people change it regularly but I have never even thought of chaning the transmission fluid. Mehbe when I switch to manual I will look at the weights and everything, but right now I am actually trying to kill my auto as a stimulus to get the damn thing converted.&nbsp;

bagpipe goatee 09-04-2005 02:43 PM

Diesel mileage
 
<p>
yeah, i was really only meaning manual tranny stuff, anyway.&nbsp;&nbsp; all i was trying to say, is that it's not just weights, different brands of oil use different quality &quot;bases,&quot; even within synthetics. &nbsp; if anyone wanted to be another trial on an experiment, i'd be willing to try it myself.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>i know this is off topic, but what do you have left that you need from your auto to manual?&nbsp;&nbsp; i have shift linkage, manual p06 ecu, etc.<br /> </p>

SVOboy 09-04-2005 02:48 PM

Finally: 100 MPG (US) in the Blackfly
 
I wouldn't have tried it in the auto, I would just let it run on no fluid and kill it. I'll send you a note through this mail system about the auto to manual stuff.&nbsp;

Cruzedriver 09-12-2008 04:32 AM

Whats the blackfly in your title?

GasSavers_BEEF 09-12-2008 09:58 AM

he may be referring to metroMPG's car which is a pontiac firefly (pretty much a geo metro) and it is black. he is in canada

I may be way off on that one but that is the only place I have heard mention of the blackfly

civic lover 09-12-2008 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bagpipe goatee (Post 16)
there was already an article posted about tire resistance, but what about the transmission and engine? 88-91 hondas, which everyone here seems to have, has about 10w40 specified for the tranny. what about synthetic? they are supposed to have lower friction characteristics for the same viscosity, however as stated <a href="https://www.batterystuff.com/tutorial_lubrication.html">here</a> not all synthetics are created equal, having to deal with the stock they start out with, etc. I won't bore you with the details becaus they're on the site.

I have friends who race midgets, and they claim the best oil is amsoil, which is made here in wisconsin. I guess treat that with a grain of salt, but from looking it up, it looks pretty good. reccomended by a lot of people. of course, there is the standby mobil one, etc.

also, if you don't live in a blistering hot climate, you could probably bump your oil viscosity down a couple notches too, especially if you have a new engine.

but TRANNY's seem like they could benefit most from choosing the right oil. when was the last time you even changed the oil in one of those?

We both live in the same climate so I will give you my experience with synthetic. I switch my tranny oil over to pennzoil syncromesh. It was like night and day difference in the 10 below weather. It was so much easier to shift when the transmission was cold. I couldn't tell you if I gained any mpg becuase the weather conditions change so frequently in the winter not to mention keeping track of the snow that falls. I would highly recommend it. I might try a different oil in my HX once I get that running.

GasSavers_SD26 09-13-2008 12:37 AM

I haven't seen gains from changing engine oils. In automatics, I have yet to see gains in changing automatic transmission fluids to synthetics, in addition doing that in the rear end, transfer case, and front pumpkin.

In two cars, I did see an increase in my MPG in front wheel drive, manual transmission vehicles. One was an old beater, one was a car we purchased new. In both, I replaced the transmission fluid with Redline MTL. In a rear wheel drive vehicle with a manual transmission, I didn't see any results with the fluid change even with a rear end fluid change to Redline synthetic.

Amsoil? I think it's good. It's another option. Personal preferences apply. I've used it. Haven't seen a change in mileage or longevity.

DracoFelis 09-13-2008 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bagpipe goatee (Post 16)
there was already an article posted about tire resistance, but what about the transmission and engine? 88-91 hondas, which everyone here seems to have, has about 10w40 specified for the tranny. what about synthetic?

My understanding is that those old manual transmission Hondas, that speced normal motor oil for the manual transmission, should NOT be converted to regular synthetic engine oil because the friction properties are wrong (which interferes with the normal operation of the transmission's synchronizers, resulting in poorer shifting and greater than average synchronizer wear). And from a personal standpoint when I tried it (before I knew better), I could feel the extra "slippage" when that synthetic engine oil was in there.

The reason this happens, is that normal (non-synthetic) engine oil was never really optimized for such transmissions, but (due to how they made it) was an OK (if not great) fluid to use in such situations. But some of the oil properties that are optimized to make synthetic better engine oil, also (as a side effect) makes it worse for use as a manual transmission fluid. Specifically, in a manual transmission (unlike a car engine) you have to carefully control the friction properties of the oil, or the transmission's synchronizers will spin too freely, which both affects smoothness of shifting and how fast the transmission wears out from use!

Thankfully, I since learned that there are a few companies (both "Redline" and "Amsoil" are two that come to mind) that make synthetic manual transmission lubes designed to work in places (such as the older manual Hondas) that were originally designed for regular motor oil. Such lubes have the greater heat/cold abilities and overall lower friction of synthetics, while still being formulated to properly keep the transmission's synchronizers from wearing out too soon.

So what do I have in my 1991 CRX, you ask? I'm currently using the "Redline MTL" lube (I put it in slightly before becoming an Amsoil dealer, or I might have gotten the Amsoil lube instead), and it works very well in my experience. I can't tell you how smooth shifting is (even when starting in the winter cold, which prior to the fluid change would always have very stiff shifting until the car warmed up). And while the lube claims it might provide slightly higher gas mileage (due to lower losses in the transmission), I can't really tell for sure (due to the smallness of the effect). However, it might be true, as one thing I can tell is that I've been able to DFCO "coast" longer since converting the transmission over (i.e. lower transmission drag/losses, than what I was using before). The cost? Around $9/quart + shipping. Which considering the fact that my transmission only uses about 2 quarts of fluid (I got 3 quarts, just to make sure), and you don't change the transmission fluid that often, I figure it didn't cost me much to get much better transmission fluid in the car.

BTW: If you actually want to try the Amsoil lubes, just send me a PM and I'll see what discounts I can work out for you. If not, that's OK too. ;)

NOTE: I can't currently tell you were the best place to get the Redline MTL from (if that's the route you want to go), as the web site that I purchased it from is apparently no longer up. However, as long as you don't overly abuse your car (and we hypermilers generally don't, unlike the racing crowd that Redline traditionally sells to), the MTL product it reported to work very well in older Honda stick-shift transmissions (it's just reported to cause extra transmission wear if/when you really beat on the car hard, as racers tend to do). And I can tell you from personal experience, that "upgrading" to that fluid is very worthwhile, if only for the smooth shifting even in cold (much less any FE benefit).

Bottom line, IMHO it's reasonably cheap and easy to upgrade an old stick-shift to a good synthetic manual transmission lube. And I would personally recommend it, if only for the smoother shifting (even if you don't see any FE benefit, and you just might see a small benefit).

However, be sure to go to a quality synthetic lube formulated for manual transmissions, and avoid the mistake I made of using a synthetic engine oil in the transmissions. It will just work so much better with a manual transmission lube, and with the small amount of fluid you are talking about the cost difference (between a synthetic engine oil and a synthetic manual transmission lube) for the entire fluid change is likely to be under $10 total...

Geonerd 09-14-2008 10:04 PM

Honda's own MTF is excellent.

After dumping what looked like dino oil from my Accord's gearbox, I filled it with Mr. Honda's MTF. The shifting is soooo much smoother.

I'm almost certain that H-MTF is fully synthetic. It should reduce wear and be FE friendly.


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