'85 CRX Si DD won't run longer than 2 seconds, need help on what to test...
 

Here's the gist:
Mechanically stock daily driven '85 CRX Si with 247k on the clock has run flawless the last 7 years minus a few batteries. Anyway, I'm leaving work at 1am, it's something like 20 degree F outside and she cranks, physically runs for a couple seconds, then dies out. Rinse, repeat, disappoint. Here's what I've narrowed it down to:

1. everything in the dash lights like normal on ignition II (Run), no CEL/MIL
2. she cranks like normal and fires/runs for approx. 2-3 seconds, then dies as if there is no fuel and/or spark.
3. I can hear the pump kick on when I turn to IGN II (for the 2 second prime)
4. I do NOT hear the pump after the car cranks, runs, & key is back to IGN II
5. Fusible links, regular underdash fuses, have been checked and are good
6. I naturally smell fuel after a few attempts of her running off the 2 second prime

My guess was the main relay had failed, I have removed it and tested it per HELMS & it checks out ok, altho I noticed a few faint hairline cracks in a few joints & resoldered every single one to be on the safe side. I tried out the re-soldered one and got the same result. I'll have to wait til after work to test the harness. Kinda sucks doing all this in the parking lot at 1am in 20 degree weather...

I also have a spare ECU to test, altho ECU failure is extremely rare in a Honda. My only other guess is a inner-distributor issue, like the ignitor, although I figured she wouldn't fire at all if that was the case & I have no way of checking. Any thoughts? Thanks in advance, Mak

Left to test:
- harness
- ECU
- distributor
- fuel pressure regulator?

Keep in mind I'm in a parking lot. At night. And it's coooold.

Re: '85 CRX Si DD won't run longer than 2 seconds, need help on what to test...
 

Check for spark first-

1. turn the key to the "run" position, put it in neutral,
2. slide the harness connector off the start terminal on the starter and use a jumper wire to give that terminal 12 volts (from the positive terminal of the battery or from the 12v terminal on the starter).
3. Now you can pull a plug wire off and check for spark with one hand, while you give the start terminal 12 volts with the other hand.

Re: '85 CRX Si DD won't run longer than 2 seconds, need help on what to test...
 

If no spark in the run position:

1. it could be a bad ignition switch "run" contact- maybe you could check to see if the coil and dizzy are getting 12 volts. If they aren't then maybe you could temporarily give them 12v via a jumper wire from the battery.

If you don't have time for this/can't track down the wires and have a buddy with you, have the buddy start the car and continue holding the key in the "start" position while you are holding the start wire connector on the starter. Pull the connector off the terminal on the starter as soon as it starts in order to avoid damaging the starter drive and getting that horrid grinding noise. If it runs OK in the start position, then maybe you could check out a wiring diagram and "hotwire" it to get yourself home.

2. bad igniter or dizzy?- in which case you will have just to replace it - but I don't see why it would fire OK when cranking

If spark is OK in the "run" position, then it has to be a fuel issue.

1. Bad main relay (even if it checked OK and you re-soldered it)- Maybe you can bypass the main relay by running a wire from a headlight fuse terminal in the fuse box, to the fuel pump fuse terminal in the fuse box.

2. Bad fuel pump- it would likely be making funny noises when priming or wouldn't prime at all

3. severely clogged fuel filter?- enough gets through to start it, but not enough to keep it running

4. Fuel pressure regulator- you can pull the vacuum hose off and check for gas in the vac hose (in the event the diaphragm was busted).



Based in the info in the original post- I predict that it is a bad "run" contact in the ignition switch

Re: '85 CRX Si DD won't run longer than 2 seconds, need help on what to test...
 

After an hour and a half in 23 degree weather 2:30 a.m., she finally fired and stayed that way. I tested the voltage of the relay harness, swapped relays for fun, checked for fuel in the fuel pressure regulator vacuum hose (smelled like gas to me, I'm guessing from the dozen of so cranks without burning out all the rich start mix?), even checked the ignition switch contacts with a MM (they were good...which will confuse me later on) and was about to call it quits for the night when I finally got the switch itself off and found this: (check 3' o clock for the culprit)
https://www.redpepperracing.com/galle...1/100_0879.JPG
https://www.redpepperracing.com/galle...1/100_0881.JPG
I scrubbed the contacts with a little 220 sandpaper I had in the glovebox and she fired right up! I played around with the IGN II pressure/position and indeed she died like before depending on how the key was positioned. Thanks Erik for helping out, I do appreciate it, Mak

Re: '85 CRX Si DD won't run longer than 2 seconds, need help on what to test...
 

sounds like my s10, would stumble around and cut out if it was idiling. could jiggle the keys and make it stall haha

Re: '85 CRX Si DD won't run longer than 2 seconds, need help on what to test...
 

I WAS WRONG! Installed the new switch, fired fine. Drove to work today, got 5 miles out and the car died, no fuel. Sitting on the side of the highway I try, repeatedly, to get her to run and failed. I swapped the new ignition for the freshly sanded contacts old one and still nothing.

- She will turn over.
- All dash lights work as normal.
- Starter is fine.
- Relay clicks, then clicks again on IGN II (Run).
- NO FUEL PUMP NOISE WHATSOEVER. Not even the 2 sec. prime. This a new symptom vs. last week.

My new guess is either the pump is going, going, gone or the wiring between the ignition switch and the relay is suspect. I'm officially frustrated, Mak

Re: '85 CRX Si DD won't run longer than 2 seconds, need help on what to test...
 

Could you eliminate the fuel pump wiring as a cause by wiring in your own switch and harness?

Re: '85 CRX Si DD won't run longer than 2 seconds, need help on what to test...
 

I second that idea

Re: '85 CRX Si DD won't run longer than 2 seconds, need help on what to test...
 

Those relays can fail and still click. There should be three clicks total; the two you are hearing, then a click 2 seconds after the second click. (while at IGN II)

1. If you aren't hearing the pump prime but are hearing the third click, it is the pump or wiring to the pump. (grounds, etc)
2. If, OTOH, you aren't hearing the pump prime AND you are NOT hearing the third click, it is the relay for sure. It is more rare to fail this way, but it does happen.

My relay wasn't failing at all until after I started EOC a lot. It seemed to have exacerbated the problem. I put the relay through a lot more cycles with my kill switch.
Your ignition was faulty either way. It's likely it was the cause of the demise of the fuel pump or main relay as such. Like my EOC put more stress on my main relay, so too did your ignition put extra stress on the related bits.
Additionally, these problems could have been co-occurring. That makes it an even harder to find gremlin.

I'd try swapping in your spare relay when this happens.
You can also test voltage at the harness for the fuel tank when this happens. (per helms manual) Although, that would require pulling the seat and such.

At least you've narrowed it down! It can't be the ignition switch anymore.
B

Re: '85 CRX Si DD won't run longer than 2 seconds, need help on what to test...
 

Got the car towed at 2 a.m. after messing with it after work for an hour. I had HELMS handy and tested the relay harness itself, after the test of jumping the fuel pump directly with a known 12v source, I heard nothing = fuel pump wiring is bad, more likely the fuel pump itself. I've got a day off coming up, I'll test for voltage at the pump plug, then I'll have my answer...btw, I went tested the relay completely via HELMS, it checked out fine but I resoldered and re-tested to be super sure (my '89 HF-Z1 died randomly due to a bad relay last summer so I wasn't going that route again.) I'll let you know what I find. Mak

Re: '85 CRX Si DD won't run longer than 2 seconds, need help on what to test...
 

It's a fuel starvation issue. Electrical issues don't take 2 seconds to develop or appear.

Re: '85 CRX Si DD won't run longer than 2 seconds, need help on what to test...
 

I agree. After checking online for prices on an OEM fuel pump, I'm seeing $220-ish from Majestic Honda, etc! Are they serious? Anyway, anyone know of a better alternative to the real deal genuine OEM part? Rockauto has been hit or miss lately. The ignition I got last week was definitely sub-par but I see now that wasn't my biggest problem. Mak

Re: '85 CRX Si DD won't run longer than 2 seconds, need help on what to test...
 

If you can find it in a scrap yard for cheap, I'd do that. I bought a parts car a while back and it's fuel pump has been going strong for about 10k miles. I don't know what the yard price would be... probably not much considering not many people buy them from the yard.

You said you put 12v to the pump with a jumper and no beans? That pretty much guarantees to be either a bad ground (I would spend some time and make sure it's not this) or the fuel pump is bad. A bad ground is easy enough to test; just bring another jumper from a good known ground source over to the pump with your 12v test lead. If the pump fires up, replace the wiring. If it doesn't, it'd DOA for sure.
Good luck!
B

Re: '85 CRX Si DD won't run longer than 2 seconds, need help on what to test...
 

Tested the voltage AT the pump connection = 12v so the pump is officially dead. Then I f-ed everything up... As I was attempting to remove the fuel supply line connection w/ a flare wrench, that 26 year old piece of crap would not budge, instead torquing the hard metal line and creating a small crack/leak that now slowly leaks fuel! I've never tried to repair a fuel hard line so what are my options? Am I screwed? If the process is easy enough I'll replace all exterior hard lines because they look downright awful after some weathered decades. Thanks, Mak

Re: '85 CRX Si DD won't run longer than 2 seconds, need help on what to test...
 

I've had the same problem on two vehicles. The only proper repair is to replace the line. Acceptable repairs, depending on how you feel about it, may include patching in hardline with compression fittings or using rubber fuel hose (which is surely in use in a couple places on the car; it's not completely unacceptable, although you do need to secure it tight enough for your car's fuel pressure).

Re: '85 CRX Si DD won't run longer than 2 seconds, need help on what to test...
 

I used the rubber hose over metal line method on my old Acura Integra. It worked fine with no leaks. Just be sure that you clean the outside of the metal tubing well and overlap it at least 3-4 inches. Use at least 2 clamps.

Re: '85 CRX Si DD won't run longer than 2 seconds, need help on what to test...
 

I used that method on my carbureted Buick but I'd be afraid of the pressure required for fuel injection. Even with the carburetor's fuel pump's low pressure I not only used extra clamps but I sealed it (Permatex #1 Form-a-Gasket, IIRC...or possibly [but less likely] gasket shellac.).

Re: '85 CRX Si DD won't run longer than 2 seconds, need help on what to test...
 

The Integra was fuel injected and it was a high pressure fuel line (probably 30-45 psi).

I used the smallest high pressure rated rubber fuel hose that I could find that would still fit over the metal line- so it was a snug fit even before I tightened the hose clamps. I drove the car for 7 more years without any leaks.

I like your idea of using a sealant like permatex or shellac to ensure a good seal.

Re: '85 CRX Si DD won't run longer than 2 seconds, need help on what to test...
 

Assuming the lines you are talking about are akin to steel brake lines, re-flaring them is easy if you have the tool. You can save yourself a ton of money doing brake work if you get what's called a, "double flare" tool. Instead of replacing the full length of a line to the next fitting, you can replace just the length you need to get to good steel. I got one of these tools for replacing fuel lines on her 96' civic. I would have had to replace a bunch of really hard to get to lines that run up the firewall, but did not have to. (I had to do brakes too)
Plus, you can re-use the fittings or buy new ones if they are bad. They sell fittings by the bulk (10-20 per package) and are way cheaper. The coiled line is way cheaper too, like less than half the price of buying the premade jobs.

Speaking of that, if there is a fitting not too far from the tank, (I'm sure there's a union there somewhere) you can buy one of the pre-made jobs.

The rubber hose idea is fine, but the double flare setup is really superior. You'll use that tool again and again, I promise.
B

Re: '85 CRX Si DD won't run longer than 2 seconds, need help on what to test...
 

Where can a double flare tool good for different sizes and proper for fuel lines (as well as brake lines, maybe) be bought at a reasonable price? Now that you mention it I remember considering it for my needs but it didn't work out (probably they were too expensive for me).

Re: '85 CRX Si DD won't run longer than 2 seconds, need help on what to test...
 

I picked mine up for $30 at carquest. It is heavy duty, works for most common sizes, and I think it came with a handful of fittings too.
I'll look for the brand when I go out to the garage later today. Prices varied widely, some where $100.

It is my understanding that aside from some differences in fittings, steel fuel lines and steel brake lines are the same animal- or at least they are interchangable. I've replaced both with the same tool on numerous occasions with no issues.
I will say, however, it took me a few test flares before I really figured it out and kept it from leaking. It is best to buy a small length of line and practice once or twice before the real deal. That being said, it's really easy now and a major time saver.
B

Re: '85 CRX Si DD won't run longer than 2 seconds, need help on what to test...
 

I've planned to cut the old rusty hard lines, replace with good steel, connect with compression, with new fittings on the ends to rid of all the old stuff. Rockauto has a double flare for $20-30. Here's the grocery list:

1. Double-flare tool
2. 20-30" of new steel line (size, off hand?)
3. Line bender (what kind is the easiest/safest for bends?)
4. New fittings for the flared ends (again, size?)
5. compression fittings (I've never used such I assume it's another size question)

Thanks to all who have posted to far, Mak

Re: '85 CRX Si DD won't run longer than 2 seconds, need help on what to test...
 

If you're flaring then you won't use compression fittings, you'll use flare nuts.

What kind of bends do you need to do? This bend was way, way too sharp to accomplish with the passive die bender available in parts stores for $10, or even the $30 deluxe one. I watched no fewer than 3 parts guys kink hardline trying to bend it for me. I rigged up a jig at home with a better die, filled the line with sand and capped it off to disallow kinking, and bent it...it still wasn't good enough.
https://lh6.ggpht.com/_oNsRR_T1Qx0/S7...0explained.jpg

Re: '85 CRX Si DD won't run longer than 2 seconds, need help on what to test...
 

I was thinking a compression fitting to join the two straight cut ends (probably on the straight line that runs the length of the driver's door, before it exits to the pump and thus, the rusty side). I would flare and flare nut the other end that connects to the rubber line before it enters the pump, possbily replacing said rubber line as well if the beast won't separate from the old flare nut that caused this problem. I am unsure of the bends off hand, no 90 degree elbow of anything, but I'd like to do this repair with the right tools instead of just hand-bending things like my last brake job (which is leak free 5 years running, but I was desperate to get the car back on the road back then, having only one car).

6. Add a tubing cutter to the list to get clean cuts for the joining ends.

Re: '85 CRX Si DD won't run longer than 2 seconds, need help on what to test...
 

My brother picked up (from autozone, I think) a tubing bender for brake lines. Really nice looking finish, far superior to hand bending (and no kinked lines either). I think it was like $5 at the time. Here's the one I think it was:
https://www.autozone.com/autozone/acc...ier=70111_0_0_

This worked well.
You could also use 90degree fittings for tight bends.

Also-
The double flare tool I have requires torquing the wing nuts with a set of pliers or vice grips. It works okay without, but does slip once in a while (thus you have to cut off and start over) without this extra tightening step. I think if the wing nuts were larger, it would be better. It works great with some extra torque!

Good luck!
B

Re: '85 CRX Si DD won't run longer than 2 seconds, need help on what to test...
 

Anyone know stock '85 CRX Si fuel hard line sizes off hand? I've got nothing in Haynes, Chilton, or HELMS. Google wasn't much help in the short time I have b4 bed.

Re: '85 CRX Si DD won't run longer than 2 seconds, need help on what to test...
 

Pulled the pump and for ****s drained/pulled the tank as well to assess the rust's hiding places. Tank is solid if a bit surface rusty on top, sprayed some rust converter on it followed by a HD rubberized undercoating to prevent future holes. Plan to replace all related hoses on the top of the tank for peace of mind. Might even get a wild hair and remove/clean the injectors, the tiny filters tend to crud up.

Turns out the pump was an Airtex E8000, 30gph/113lph, lasted (at least for me, it was on the car when I bought it) 7 years and 60k. I've reordered said E8000 to keep things simple, should be here soon.

Broke all the fuel lines off as they exit the interior to get measurements, bought new steel, waiting on my Lisle flaring tool to arrive in my mailbox to start that surgery.

Still have a few Q's:

- Because the supply line from tank to pump isn't pressurized I can use any ol' fuel hose correct?
- Do I have to run fuel injection (that can take 40+ psi) hose for the vent and return from the hard line as well? (I ask b/c the local O'Reilly's had ZERO fuel pressure rated hose.)
- Anyone have an alternative/replacement for the supply line coming off the pump (the banjo to frame mount to hard line) fuel hose? Mine's iffy. I've heard of peeps bypassing this altogether and running straight hose from pump to hard line, so what's the fuel dampener for if not necessary?

Thanks again for putting up with my (this time fuel) issues, Mak

Re: '85 CRX Si DD won't run longer than 2 seconds, need help on what to test...
 

I don't know what psi the spring loaded relief valve in the gas cap is set at (maybe 3-4 psi) but I'd play it safe and use high pressure hose for everything- even the vent hose and pump supply hose.

Re: '85 CRX Si DD won't run longer than 2 seconds, need help on what to test...
 

Update:

- Gas tank drained, dropped, swished out, sock cleaned, reinstalled.
- All three hard lines cut, new steel bent (PITA like no other), compression unions inside the car.
- New hoses where needed.
- New pump installed, 100x quieter than the last one even though it's the same model.
- Fuel pressure gauge mounted on the filter, tefloned up to prevent leaks, reads ~36-38 lbs.
- New ignition b/c it was the beginning of this endeavor.
- Any metal not covered by paint/undercoating was sprayed liberally with HD rubberized undercoating (exterior steel lines, rusty metal, wheel wells, bottom of gas tank, everything) I HATE RUST.

So far no leaks and she runs fine, although the fuel pressure slowly goes down after the car is off. (Like 20 min later it's fallen to 20 lbs, etc)

After a brake bleed she should be back on the road (it's been years since the last bleed) Thanks for all who helped, Mak

Re: '85 CRX Si DD won't run longer than 2 seconds, need help on what to test...
 

Sounds like a bit of overkill, but it's running reliably. Good job!

Re: '85 CRX Si DD won't run longer than 2 seconds, need help on what to test...
 

I would chase that now while everything is freshly put together (and fresh in your mind). It's probably just the check valve in the pump but it's worthwhile to make sure.