CARB rules cause more traffic deaths
 

I submitted this to Mythbusters:

Doubling MPG. A major way to do it is make lighter cars. So, let's prove that removing mass kills. Or not.

Follow the Consumer Reports format and get cars from each class, from itty-bitty to "full size" and include the various incarnations of SUV's and crash them, in the average type of accident, and compare the same accident against cars that are ten to twenty years old.

Let's see how crash-dummy driver and passengers show survivability.

Re: CARB rules cause more traffic deaths
 

Where are they going to find cars that are lighter than they were 20 years ago?

Re: CARB rules cause more traffic deaths
 

the real issue is the driver, not the car. i wish all licenses were as difficult to get and maintain as a CDL.

even more stringent are truck company policies and training. i guarantee 2 things if state laws were like my company's...there would be fewer drivers on the road and the ones left would be by in large very safe!

Re: CARB rules cause more traffic deaths
 

They've already done crash tests IIRC Smart vs Volvo? and probably others.

Re: CARB rules cause more traffic deaths
 

Oh- show us the CARB rule that causes deaths please.

Re: CARB rules cause more traffic deaths
 

https://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx

At the risk of joining the smartass club; what I am thinking about is that the CARB rules are forcing us into smaller and lighter vehicles in the interest of fuel economy and, it seems to me, eventually the point will be reached where the best engineering is unable to overcome physics and save the occupant.

YouTube has a video of tiny cars hitting a concrete road barrier at 50 MPH. The drivers corpse would not have been mangled, but, so what.

Re: CARB rules cause more traffic deaths
 

I agree with BTG, we need tougher driver testing and tougher enforcement of traffic laws- including fines for not using turn signals.

As for vehicle weight, I agree that at an 80mph impact with a stationary object, a 4000 lb steel vehicle with crush zones will likely be safer than a 2000 lb steel vehicle with crush zones.

But head on crashes between two 2000 lb vehicles at 80mph might be a draw or perhaps more safe than two 4000 lb vehicles head on at the same speed.

The best way to save lives AND save gas would be to lower speed limits AND reduce vehicle weight and engine size - but that would be very unpopular with most folks.

Re: CARB rules cause more traffic deaths
 

Depends on what is the stationary object. If it is truly stationary and doesn't give, then all the force is going into the vehicle. How physics views such a crash isn't any different than a head on one with an identical vehicle at the same speed.
How many crashes with effective speed differentials of 100mph and up are in the 'walk it off category'?

Re: CARB rules cause more traffic deaths
 

Can you name any of these smaller, lighter vehicles? Any given model is larger than it used to be; as the smaller models grow, the market replaces them with new small models. In the meantime, weight is increased even for the new smaller model replacements.

A ready example for which data is easily found is the Honda Accord. It is the first car I thought of, not the product of digging for a car that supports my assertion.
1981 Honda Accord: 2000 lbs
1991 Honda Accord: 2700 lbs
2001 Honda Accord: 3100 lbs
2011 Honda Accord: 3200-3600 lbs

...not to mention that any given demographic seems to buy a larger, heavier model now than they did 20 years ago.

Re: CARB rules cause more traffic deaths
 

CARB or CAFE?

Re: CARB rules cause more traffic deaths
 

No wonder everyone is yelling at me. CAFE.

Re: CARB rules cause more traffic deaths
 

Your title "CARB rules cause more traffic deaths" is stated like a fact. So where is the supporting data?

Re: CARB rules cause more traffic deaths
 

It may not be a stretch to say that CARB rules produce similar pressures as CAFE. Does CARB consider total pollution output, or does it only consider equipment installed? My only knowledge of it is the equipment end of things.

Re: CARB rules cause more traffic deaths
 

Lightening vehicles doesn't automatically equate to more deaths.

Half of crashes involve just one vehicle. Depending on the specifics of the crash, the weight of the vehicle will be used against it. So a heavier one can be riskier to be in.

Here's a thought experiment. In an accident, would you rather be in a new compact car, or an 1980 full size pick up?

Re: CARB rules cause more traffic deaths
 

Re: CARB rules cause more traffic deaths
 

80's fullsize hands down, those things were tanks. Plus id love to see a compacts roof/windows support 6000# of steel when its on top of it:p ...

Re: CARB rules cause more traffic deaths
 

The 80s, when vehicles were at their lightest and full size pickups weren't even crash-rated? When thin sheet metal was atop an unyielding chassis with no crumple zones or air bags? Hollow doors without side-impact beams, roof barely supported by formed sheet metal with no rollover protection? I bet the new compact car can support the truck on its roof better than the truck can support the car.

No thanks, I'll take the 3300 pound 2011 compact car instead of the 3700 pound 1983 full size half ton pickup. Even in a one-ton we're looking at 4900 pounds (see PDF page 10/labeled page 7), not 6000.

...but I take my chances in my 1980 Buick every day anyway.

Re: CARB rules cause more traffic deaths
 

I'm sure a lot of you have seen this but for the ones that have not enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joMK1WZjP7g

Re: CARB rules cause more traffic deaths
 

i searched for a bit and could not find the freakin weight of a 80' ck chevy...

what kind of accident are we talking here? t bone? head on? rearend?:p

Re: CARB rules cause more traffic deaths
 

The question of what kind of accident would certainly come into play in a crash between more equivalent vehicles, but I'd say a new economy car would beat that old ck in every kind of crash.

Here's 1980 ck specs:
https://www.gmheritagecenter.com/gm-h...olet-Truck.pdf
PDF page 10, document page 7.
Curb weight 3600 (half ton single cab) to 5400 (one ton crew cab)

Re: CARB rules cause more traffic deaths
 

So you are saying that CARB or CAFE is going to legislate that everything become a Smart car? :rolleyes:

Re: CARB rules cause more traffic deaths
 

Don't forget the lack of head restraints, so the back of your head can smash the rear window.

The Matrix's roof pillars were rated for 3 times the car's weight.
Boron steel is three times stronger than regular steel. It used in many key areas to improve crash safety now, and was likely in the Matrix roof pillars. The passenger cabin cage on the Smart is made of it. It's seeing a lot of use for weight reduction. Materials science hasn't stood still.

Re: CARB rules cause more traffic deaths
 

The boron steel cage on the Smart helps protect against being crushed, but if the vehicle is really light then it still leaves you with a whole lot of energy shoved through you as the car bounces off of the other vehicle (as demonstrated in the Youtube video that Shatto posted) and more jolts as secondary collisions happen.

Re: CARB rules cause more traffic deaths
 

I think the Smart actually shunts a majority of the force around the occupants. It's the same principles used for building building bridges and skyscrapers. It does well crash tests, and weights about the same as the Metro.

It does have a disadvantage against a heavier vehicle, but as long as there's commercial trucks on the road, we all face that. This is really an argument for mandating lighter vehicles. Heavier only makes you safer at the expense of others safety.

Re: CARB rules cause more traffic deaths
 

Still not seeing any supporting evidence for shatto's assertion that CAFE or CARB rules are increasing traffic deaths....

Quite the contrary, traffic deaths are down to record setting lows, even accounting for how many more millions of miles are accrued/year.

Re: CARB rules cause more traffic deaths
 

yea ill say alot of cars have gotten safer with a billion airbags and active seatbelts etc

but also outside factors like seatbelt laws and checkpoints are helping too.

Re: CARB rules cause more traffic deaths
 

I went to a Lord Fusor class this Spring and what the new cars 2013 and up are using is Advance Metal Technology. Their very light weight for the new up and coming fuel mileage rules but are more safe then the cars of today.

Every year the cars are becoming safer.

The down side of this is that these cars will total a lot easier. So in a way we are getting closer to throw away cars.:eek:

Re: CARB rules cause more traffic deaths
 

closer and closer? we pretty much are as once plastic cracks there aint no fixing it... all the subframe pieces distort and bend badly that they need to be cut out and replaced as noithign is bolted in anymore so thats a crapload of labor so yes cars do total alot easier i think.

Re: CARB rules cause more traffic deaths
 

The downside to boron steel is the cost and training required to fix it. With labor costs, it just works out to be more financially sound for the insurance to total it.

Seems wasteful when looking at minor damage, but I'd rather have a car that I'll survive in if I'm ever in a major accident, than one that is easier to fix body panels on.

Re: CARB rules cause more traffic deaths
 

My 93 Explorer got 24 MPG with a 4.0 six, the new Explorer gets 26. That's two MPG with 18 years of evolution.

I love Mustang's, but I dont want a new one:

68 Mustang 2800
91 Mustang 3000
05 Mustang 3400
11 Mustang 3800

Economy cars are getting heavier just to do bumper battle with SUV's. I'm not down on trucks, if ya need to move something, you need a truck.

I like to drive around canyon roads, but I don't want to do it in mom's Buick.

Re: CARB rules cause more traffic deaths
 

Which is why I brought up the subject. The people I listen to and read can be wrong at times.
Perhaps the commentary I was feeding off of was about the possibility that we are being forced into progressively smaller and lighter vehicles, some with massive battery packs, that may be destroyed by similarly new but larger cars. I imagine a 7 Series BMW would do somewhat better than a Mercedes...Smart Car or a Prius.

Re: CARB rules cause more traffic deaths
 

lol throw a volvo into that mix and watch the stats fly haha