Cash for Clunkers Petition to improve vehicle fuel efficiency and reduce pollution
 

To view and sign the petition on "We the People" please visit:
https://wh.gov/n0f

Thank you for your support!

WE PETITION THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION TO:
Reinstate Cash for Clunkers!

Revive the cash incentive for consumers to trade in low fuel efficiency and high pollution "clunkers" for high fuel efficiency and low pollution vehicles.

The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development found that global greenhouse emissions would increase by 50 percent by the year 2050 unless we decrease our dependence on fossil fuels.

Cash for Clunkers will decrease oil consumption and greenhouse emissions, benefiting the climate, environment, plant and animal populations, and human health!

High fuel efficiency vehicles also save people money at the pump. This is significant, as gas prices remain volatile and often high.

By increasing new car sales, Cash for Clunkers would also act as a stimulus for the economy and create much needed jobs.

https://wh.gov/n0f

Re: Cash for Clunkers Petition to improve vehicle fuel efficiency and reduce pollutio
 

So you're saying we should borrow more money from China to subsidize people buying new cars?

Re: Cash for Clunkers Petition to improve vehicle fuel efficiency and reduce pollutio
 

Cash for Clunkers is about helping people to trade in cars that have low mpg for cars that have high mpg.

With high gas prices today, many more people would trade in their low fuel efficiency cars for high fuel efficiency cars if given the cash subsidy offered by Cash for Clunkers.

Equally important is reducing pollution from vehicles, a major source of greenhouse emissions and a danger to the climate, environment, plant and animal populations, and human health.

BTW, Americans own a great deal of American debt, and China is only one of several foreign nations that do.

Re: Cash for Clunkers Petition to improve vehicle fuel efficiency and reduce pollutio
 

(deleted rant)

Re: Cash for Clunkers Petition to improve vehicle fuel efficiency and reduce pollutio
 

I'm just not for the gov't borrowing money it doesn't have to subsidize new car sales. All C4C really did was remove many decent, affordable used cars from the market, and the working poor that need affordable used vehicles to get to and from work were left with nothing to buy. All it effectively did was make all used cars worth at least $5,000, and drove us deeper into debt. C4C did not reduce our fuel consumption, as it was shown that many of the recipients of a new car with that program actually ended up using more fuel than they did before, because they started driving a lot more.

Re: Cash for Clunkers Petition to improve vehicle fuel efficiency and reduce pollutio
 

Good grief. Cash for clunkers is such a dreadful idea.

If the country really wants to reduce gas consumption, the answer is obvious. Tax the hell out of it! A Republican congress could use the revenue to reduce income taxes, or to pay off the national debt. A Democratic congress could use it to fund healthcare.

The only thing needed to make this palatable to all (including me) is phasing it in. Increasing the Federal tax by 50 cents per year for the next five years would allow all of us to wear out our cars and trucks (like my F150) and then buy more fuel-efficient ones. Nobody would get hurt except perhaps, oil companies.

Re: Cash for Clunkers Petition to improve vehicle fuel efficiency and reduce pollutio
 

I couldn't agree more.
The availability of used cars and used parts has been hurt. Those of us that drive cheap used cars and cannot afford new ones got screwed.

Not to mention that several older vehicles can get excellent mileage. If you want better mileage and cannot afford a new car, buy one of them. There is no reason for the government to subsidize new car sales. DId it help the economy? It helped one industry, but hurt others. Not to mention that we will be paying for it for years to come.

Re: Cash for Clunkers Petition to improve vehicle fuel efficiency and reduce pollutio
 

In response to Fetch:
The old traded in cars would also be recycled, with reusable parts first being removed and reused. This is how the original Cash for Clunkers worked. Please see: "Newsflash: Turned in Cash for Clunkers cars will get recycled" https://green.autoblog.com/2009/07/13...-get-recycled/

Furthermore, automotive journalist and car reviewer Keith Griffin debunked the myth that Cash for Clunkers raised the price of used cars. Please see:
https://usedcars.about.com/b/2011/04/...-used-cars.htm

In response to Sludgy:
Yes. Raising taxes on gas would help to reduce reduce gas consumption. Possibly ending tax subsidies for oil companies would as well, if it forced oil companies to raise the price of gasoline to make up for the loss.

To everyone:
Thank you for taking the time to read my petition post and to make comments. I appreciate it. If anyone has any ideas they would like to create their own petition for, the website is https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions

Re: Cash for Clunkers Petition to improve vehicle fuel efficiency and reduce pollutio
 

indeed!

if they want to help, govt would pass legislation like the fair tax. that dictates tax free used goods, cars included btw!

Re: Cash for Clunkers Petition to improve vehicle fuel efficiency and reduce pollutio
 

Of course the cars were recycled. They weren't going to dump them in a landfill, or in the ocean. Yes, the recyclers could have stripped the cars of body panels, but the truth is they were getting so many, so fast that most just got crushed immediately. The most recyclable part of the car, the engine, had to be destroyed beyond repair before leaving the dealer's lot. I had family members in the auto industry at the time, and they saw many cars and trucks that they would have loved to have, in excellent condition go straight to the crusher.

Re: Cash for Clunkers Petition to improve vehicle fuel efficiency and reduce pollutio
 

He's got three signatures and only needs 24,997 by April 28 to get this in front of some sort of committee. Don't think he's going to make it. ;)

Re: Cash for Clunkers Petition to improve vehicle fuel efficiency and reduce pollutio
 

The cars were recycled... but only certain parts. A door? Yes. Worthwhile engine parts? No.

As far as raising the prices of good used cars... Car and Driver had an article that found the complete opposite of your article's findings. Just try finding a decent $2500 car around the time of CFC. It was absolutely impossible to find a good used truck. I bought my truck for $1400 in August of 2011. Do you think that would be possible if someone would get $4500 for it by trading it in (on a new vehicle they could not afford)?

Re: Cash for Clunkers Petition to improve vehicle fuel efficiency and reduce pollutio
 

The only way I could even think about a C4C program that's acceptable to me, is that any vehicle accepted under the program MUST be a "clunker". The vehicle must fail an emissions test, and the price of repairs to make the vehicle pass must exceed 50% of the blue book value of the vehicle.

Re: Cash for Clunkers Petition to improve vehicle fuel efficiency and reduce pollutio
 

United States DOT Press Release from 2009: "Cash for Clunkers Wraps up with Nearly 700,000 car sales and increased fuel efficiency, U.S. Transportation Secretary LaHood declares program 'wildly successful'."
The Link: https://www.dot.gov/affairs/2009/dot13309.htm

Re: Cash for Clunkers Petition to improve vehicle fuel efficiency and reduce pollutio
 

Of course the Gov't is going to proclaim it a success. Have you ever heard of the head of any gov't agency admit that a pet project in their department was a failure? It cost us way too much money that we didn't have, and only supplied a short term gain in new car sales, while hurting the working poor, parts suppliers, and used car retailers. It also hurt new car dealers at the end of the program, as once C4C was concluded, everyone that was even remotely considering a new vehicle had already bought one, and new car showrooms were devoid of customers for many months after.

Re: Cash for Clunkers Petition to improve vehicle fuel efficiency and reduce pollutio
 

Asking a Gov't agent whether or not one of their programs is a success is like asking a mother how cute & smart their child is. Of course her child is the most adorable child on the planet, and her child is also smarter than all the other babies.

Re: Cash for Clunkers Petition to improve vehicle fuel efficiency and reduce pollutio
 

horrible program. horrible idea. but I'd love for someone to give me a bunch of money for a car I no longer drive. Brilliance in the Oval Office.

Re: Cash for Clunkers Petition to improve vehicle fuel efficiency and reduce pollutio
 

Ba-zinga!

As a former car salesman and commercial lender, I can also proclaim that Jay's comments regarding the dealers not selling cars for many months afterwards is absolutely right. Numerous dealers around me were forced to lay off sales and service personnel. Dealer inventories skyrocketed, and some factories were idled (such as the one at which my brother works) to try to bring the supply down. That also had an impact on suppliers, I'm sure.

Re: Cash for Clunkers Petition to improve vehicle fuel efficiency and reduce pollutio
 

If anyone has an issue with the US DOT article, please read it and comment on the argument, facts and figures, before dismissing it simply because of the author.
Again, the link: https://www.dot.gov/affairs/2009/dot13309.htm

Another article to read for argument, facts and figures. It addresses the Edmunds.com analysis and also provides a chart explaining "Actual versus Projected Total U.S. Light-Vehicle Sales" from January 2009 to March 2010.
The link: https://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2010/...-work-intended

Re: Cash for Clunkers Petition to improve vehicle fuel efficiency and reduce pollutio
 

In my opinion the US economy is in tight situation now, and in this election climate obama's first priority is creating jobs instead of creating pollution free vehicles.

Re: Cash for Clunkers Petition to improve vehicle fuel efficiency and reduce pollutio
 

I hate the idea of taxing gas more to make us use less, and good luck convincing any politician that wants to serve more time in office to sign off on that one.

I've got a better idea. Get rid of oil subsidies, give tax credits for vehicles that are very fuel efficient, and eliminate the tax on used goods, especially cars. While we are at it, tax the crap out of imports, and eliminate the loopholes for businesses that shift assets overseas to avoid paying their fair share. Give that money to states so states can reduce sales taxes and people will buy more sh...tuff that they need, which will hopefully be made in America because it won't be cheaper to pay some person in a third world country to make it, and will make everyone richer. Then maybe this country won't have to borrow so much money or spend so much supporting the people who can't get work because all the jobs making the awesome stuff we used to make in this country are in India and China.

I remember back when being green meant reduce, reuse, recycle, not buy some new crap to replace perfectly good old crap. Look at how much oil is used in the production of those new cars, from making the plastics, to transporting it to the dealer's lot. If people in this country had more money, they wouldn't spend it on the disposable crap that everyone makes because no one will buy a vacuum cleaner that lasts longer than a year anymore. How many TV and Appliance repair places have gone under in the last 30 years? Think about it. Those are jobs that are lost to some guy in mexico who is assembling a toaster that will last 18 months before you are off to Walmart to spend 10 bucks on a replacement. This country and its economy did pretty good back when everything we owned wasn't disposable and the working man made a good wage and benefits since he didn't have to compete for his job with Abdar (or as he is known on the tech support line, Ted from American Kansas), and we have been slowly rolling downhill since the 80s.

Also, just for the record. While I am not a mother, my two year old is the most adorable little boy on the planet. Just want to be clear on that so that you know that all those mothers are lying.

Re: Cash for Clunkers Petition to improve vehicle fuel efficiency and reduce pollutio
 

I know exactly what you're saying about quality products, and how long things last now. My toaster is a 50's model Sunbeam Radiant Control unit, and it works better than the best toaster available now at any price. My waffle iron is a Toastmaster model from the 30's, and makes perfect waffles every time. My vacuum is a Kirby Legend II from the very early 90's that I converted to HEPA filtration and have been extremely pleased with.

Most Americans will buy a vacuum for $150 from Wal-Mart, and when it breaks in ~2 years, go to Wal-Mart and buy another $150 piece of junk. Same with toasters. Go to Wal-Mart and buy another $10 toaster when your 3 year old toaster breaks.

I can go on and on, but as for me, I prefer to have the older, higher quality items in my home. The only items I have purchased new were my TV, laptop, and cell phone. Everything else in the house is at least 30 years old.

Re: Cash for Clunkers Petition to improve vehicle fuel efficiency and reduce pollutio
 

Cash for Clunkers 1 = FAIL. THAT was supposed to get people out of inefficienct vehicles and into more efficient ones... you know what happened right? People with perfectly good used pickups used CforC to get... new pickups! Correction: new COMMUTER pretty-boy pickups. Not economical cars.

FAIL.

This version has FAIL written all over it too.

You want the national fleet to have better fuel economy? Remove govt petrol subsidies and let the motorists pay the true cost. Oh yeah, that would be the wake-up call that's been missing all these decades.

Your premise about the pollution is off base too. Just about everything on the road these days is already EFI and cat converter equipped, so they aren't that bad. You want to do something about pollution, get the govt to stop paying people to reproduce, and tighten up the borders while they're at it.

Re: Cash for Clunkers Petition to improve vehicle fuel efficiency and reduce pollutio
 

I was wondering when you would chime in on this... you must have been fighting the urge since this thread started... :)

Re: Cash for Clunkers Petition to improve vehicle fuel efficiency and reduce pollutio
 

Not defending CforC here, in fact, this is a strike against it, but they might have only been able to get truck under the program. Those wanting to trade in a 3/4 ton or larger were stuck buying within those size classes. It's assumed the newer truck was more efficient and cleaner, but these vehicles are still exempt from EPA testing. I don't recall the specifics with 1/2 tons or smaller

Re: Cash for Clunkers Petition to improve vehicle fuel efficiency and reduce pollutio
 

I guess it depends on what state you're in. I have to get my 1 ton an emissions inspection every 2 years. :(

Re: Cash for Clunkers Petition to improve vehicle fuel efficiency and reduce pollutio
 

You guys do realize that under c4c, the vehicle they traded had to get below a a combined mileage of 18mpg and the ones they got had to get above 22mpg?

Just saying, the way some of you are talking, it sounds like you think people traded in a 16mpg pickup for a shinier 16mpg pickup. Not defending the program, because I don't think it was THAT effective, but it wasn't totally ineffective either. Worked better than some other direct stimulus methods the government has tried, but still not very well.

Re: Cash for Clunkers Petition to improve vehicle fuel efficiency and reduce pollutio
 

The problem was that there was nothing wrong with most of the vehicles turned in. The people with the truly crappy vehicles that were not running right, grossly polluting and wasting fuel cannot afford a new vehicle, even with the subsidy.

Re: Cash for Clunkers Petition to improve vehicle fuel efficiency and reduce pollutio
 

I haven't stopped in for a few months so I didn't have to exercise any restraint...

Re: Cash for Clunkers Petition to improve vehicle fuel efficiency and reduce pollutio
 

I meant to say they are exempt from from CAFE.

I'm no longer familiar with the details, but that might only apply to cars. Those numbers would exclude new trucks with EPA estimates, and they wouldn't do that.

In the case of 3/4 ton or larger trucks, a person very well may have traded in a 16mpg for a newer 16mpg one. These trucks are exempt from CAFE, and don't require any fuel economy testing. I do think the trade in had to be of a certain age to make it more likely the new one had better emissions and fuel economy. The real shame was that owners of these trucks couldn't use CforC to downsize into a 1/2 ton or smaller truck or even a car. They were stuck with getting a large truck.

Re: Cash for Clunkers Petition to improve vehicle fuel efficiency and reduce pollutio
 

No Jay, I'm not disagreeing with the fact that many of the cars turned in under C4C didn't really have anything wrong with them. It made the used car market suck too. Worst of all, it didn't help the people who really could have used the help.

Trollbait, no, there was not that big of an exemption for trucks. They had to get better mileage. Furthermore, they could only buy vehicles under the program that had a retail value of under $45,000 (although there were some notable exceptions). Also, the credit varied based upon the difference in fuel economy between the old and new vehicle.

It does stand, that the average fuel economy of a vehicle that was turned in was 15.8, and the average fuel economy of a vehicle purchased was 25.3mpg, and this is including truck trade ins.

83% of trade-ins were trucks, and 60% of purchases were new cars. There were pickup for pickup trades, but they still showed an improvement in fuel economy, despite the less strict rules.

Re: Cash for Clunkers Petition to improve vehicle fuel efficiency and reduce pollutio
 

Sign a petition to reinstate Cash for Clunkers? Uh, no. I think I'll pass. Before C4C, it was possible to pick up a usable car for around $400 or even less. Now, from what I have seen, pretty much dead cars are nearly $1000. Bring it back again, and it will make used cars even more expensive.

Ditto the "Accelerated Retirement" programs like we have in California. Just watched a perfectly good Geo Metro go to the crusher because someone could get more selling the car to the state, to be destroyed, than to someone who could have probably driven it another couple hundred thousand miles.

I could say more, but I'd better shut my mouth now.

Re: Cash for Clunkers Petition to improve vehicle fuel efficiency and reduce pollutio
 

funny how we agree politically JB, when our (yours and mine) money is at stake! ;)

Re: Cash for Clunkers Petition to improve vehicle fuel efficiency and reduce pollutio
 

THIS^^^

Re: Cash for Clunkers Petition to improve vehicle fuel efficiency and reduce pollutio
 

You just had force me to strain my fingers at Google didn't you. :)

For light duty trucks, the ones with EPA fuel ratings, CforC worked as you and I have said. With small trucks(Ranger, Tacoma), it worked the same as for cars, with the new vehicle needed to +5 mpg to get the higher voucher. I didn't spell it out because I was focusing on Work Trucks, and was hazy on the details of the large light duty trucks.

Large light duty trucks(F150, Silverado, any 1500 class) had mpg limits for the program, but they were lower than for cars. The trade in limit was 15mpg, and only +1 and +2 for the $3500 or $4500 credit. Our Sable wasn't eligible, but a large light truck owner could trade in their truck for a vehicle with the same or even worse economy than the Sable with a $4500 voucher. Fair? Sign of lobbyist power? Eh, large trucks have poorer fuel economy, and some people need them. So they couldn't be excluded, but couldn't have the same limits as cars. Many people became honest with themselves, admitted they didn't need truck, and got a car or other vehicle type. That's one positive of the program.

I was focusing on the work truck class. It overlaps with the large light duty class in gross weight, but the important thing is they do not require fuel economy testing. Without a fuel economy rating, other factors were needed. So the trade in just had to be older than 2002. The exemption wasn't big. $3500 was the max credit amount, and CforC funds for them were limited to 7.5%. The new vehicle had to be a work or large light duty truck. While, they were few, those that wanted to downsize even further couldn't under the program.

https://news.pickuptrucks.com/2009/06...kers-bill.html

The first comment there also pointed out the effect CforC had on car donations.

Re: Cash for Clunkers Petition to improve vehicle fuel efficiency and reduce pollutio
 

How 'bout that... :confused: :eek: :D

Edit:

Wow! I just saw...post #777! Shouldn't I get a buttload of quarters pouring out of my computer now?!?