The only one I can tell you about is the Mitsubishi Outlander. They say 32 miles, but that's hard to get. More like 26 ish for me. Its all hills where I live and they don't help, although you get some back with brake regeneration when you go downhill, and obviously when braking.

A charge costs me about 60p on Economy 7. With petrol at about £5.40 a gallon that's the equivalent of 175 mpg if you don't go far enough to bring the ICE into play.

This is not a light car though! There are some that can do even better that.

Are you able to own it outright, or is it leased?
I stopped reading papers years ago, so am pretty behind on info, but i seem to recall that on hybids like a prius, toyota own the battery of your car still....?!
I looked at the nissan leaf, but i seem to recall a similar catch.
And you can charge off an extension cable out the window?!
26 miles would be a little short, or daily commute is about 40, but that last bit would by diesel at about 35 mpg?

You own it all including the battery, and the whole lot comes with a 5 year warranty. You can charge out the window, 5 hours to full,but you can have a dedicated charger on the wall outside that does it in 3.5 hours, paid for by a government grant.

No road tax or congestion charge. I have got 36 mpg on petrol so far, so your commute would be something like 26 electric miles and 14 on petrol unless its 20 miles each way and you can charge at work.

I've not had it long and I've only put petrol in 3 times. I keep forgetting to record the mileage when filling up so I haven't got any numbers on fuelly yet

My biggest concern is that the battery will need replacing anywhere between 5 and 8 years depending on mileage. At the moment, new batteries cost £5000 to £7000 although by the time most hybrids will need replacements I should imagine they would have developed a way of making them cheaper. It just seems any money saved on fuel is then wasted on replacing expensive parts.

Its true that a battery would be expensive to replace today. Mine is only half the size of some in all electric cars. Mitsubishi claim that there will be a 20% drop in capacity over 8 years. I can't find a price for a new battery so far, but I would expect 3 to 4 grand to be nearer the mark. On the other hand, economy of scale will bring them down over time. Look at how much a flat screen TV cost a few years ago compared to now. Its also quite likely that better batteries will be available as time goes on, so if replacement time comes around you can have a battery that will give you a longer range on EV.

In my case a similar size and power of car would cost £2000 or more in road tax alone over 8 years, or in worst case £1250 over 5 years, and that's before what will be massive savings on fuel costs.

In my case a big part of the decision was because I really like the car too.

Here is a great list of all plug ins - List of modern production plug-in electric vehicles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


In the US all states have at least the 8 year 100K mile warranty. In CARB states (like California, New York, etc) you get a 10 year 150K mile warranty on the hybrid batteries.


If you are lucky (or unlucky) you could have an ancient hybrid like me that the batteries are dead in yet the gasoline engine runs fine (but slower) without batteries, but I think only the early insights and civics hybrids can do this.


BTW replacement batteries from aftermarket sources seem to be in the $2000-$3000 range, there are many new sources popping up all the time as more hybrids hit the road.


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Nice info!
I have only seen 1 insight in the UK, at a car show 8 years ago, never on the roads. I guess hilly and wild yorkshire is not the natural home for electric gehicles.
I guess i could charge at work, i hadnt thought of that! Ha ha ha - just asked the boss who said if i had an electric car, i wouldn't be allowed to come to work! He is now saying if he let me, he d have to let everyone, and go bankrupt!
Whatever.
I'd be interested to see how much a used insight is over here. Can a prius be forced to drive on electric till the battery is spent?
Am i right in thinking most toyotas dont plug in -any idea on their electric only range-

There are 215 Insights for sale in the UK, however all of them are MK2's the Mk1's are super rare. There are thousands of hybrids in the UK believe it or not, I read somewhere that the UK is the biggest market for hybrids, probably due to high fuel prices, road taxes and congestion charges, which is where hybrids are most popular. Cities and built up areas where there are plenty or charge points. Those that can't afford hybrids usually opt for old diesels, which is why emissions start building up sometimes. There are a few different types of Prius, your standard version and your plug in version.

My mistake - i thought insights were just the groovy mk1s, didn't realise the bland mk2 prius lookalikes were insights too.
I ve seen some of those about. A beautiful light green one on ebay, but looks like an auto...
To make my hyundai worthwhile i need to keep it 10 years, but maybe i ll look to buy one then!
I ll be filling up tomorrow, looking forward to getting a great result after dawdling along following scangauges 3 and 4 figure live mpg feedback!

On ebay i assumed they were mk1s, about 6, all 3 door ones with the faired over rear arches, about 2000 i think, 1 litre engines. Lots of the 5 door different ones.

Yes there are a few on eBay surprisingly. There's a nice one there with just 33,000 on the clock. Unfortunately a lot of hybrids have auto transmissions, which is why whenever you see them the driver is usually over the age of 70! There are 3 Honda hybrids with manual gearboxes but the majority are auto's.

I love that light green colour - if I got one, it would have to be that colour, but manual!
Fiest Scangauge result is in - 69.5 mpg (I was hoping for a little more...!).
On the same routes, my last fills were 55 and 60 mpg.
Realistically, the improved figure has been mainly down to speed reduction - a lot more 40 mph rather than 50 mph I would say.
However, I have also spent more time in 4th and 5th rather than 6th gear.
Chasing the Scangauge figure has meant often ignoring my cars prompt to change up a gear; an eco display to up or down shift for purported best economy is displayed on my dash.

Electric motors don't actually need gears. My car uses the ICE to run a generator to drive the electric motors at speeds below about 50, and switches to direct front wheel drive at higher speeds.

No gearbox at all.

I think some hybrids have a CVT type gearbox, but the electric motors don't need it because they don't have the torque and power characteristics of an ICE.

There's a good simple explanation here:
Do Electric Cars Have Gears? No. Here's Why - The Green Optimistic

But manual gearbox would be for the times the petrol engine is in use?

AFAIK the early hybrids were normal cars with electric assistance. The current ones switch continually between EV and ICE and that seems a bit tricky with gears and a clutch. I don't know if there are any manuals in production now, I've not seen any.

The only manual hybrids I can think of are all Hondas, the old Insight, Civic and the new Crz.

Going slower isn't always the most economical. I would try cruising at a higher speed, especially on the motorway, use final gear, chose some low revs and try and stay consistent. I promise you'll easily get over 70 MPG by cruising at a higher speed ;)

Yes, I have just had a look at the CRZ. It can't run on electric alone, it uses an electric motor to give it an extra push. A manual box is fine with that. But mpg is not special compared to similar conventional cars.

Plugins seem to be the way to get good mpg and they are selling well here not least because there are some big tax breaks and grants.

There are electric only cars now with 100 miles+ range, so I would guess if that continues to improve hybrids might lose some of their popularity, although I wouldn't have one until there a much better public charging infrastructure.

I'm still pretty sceptical about hybrids, plug ins included. They are OK for short city journeys, but that's all. And if it's short city journeys you mostly do, then your fuel costs aren't going to be huge anyway, certainly nowhere near as much as buying a hybrid would cost. If you want to do a long cross country trip, let's say 800 miles, that's one tank full to empty on my little car, in a plug in, assuming you stop once for a break, and recharge, then of those 800 miles, how many are done on electricity at motorway speeds? A very small percentage I would guess.

On the plus side, as you have mentioned, range seems to be increasing every day with developing technologies, as does the charging infrastructure. The UK has more charge points than any other country in the World. I don't think people fully understand just how many there are. Check out this screen shot of the UK, and a zoomed in area of London!

I need a big car for my family and dogs. I live in the middle of nowhere,and I've just come back from taking my dogs for a walk in the woods,then to the local town (10 miles away) for a takeaway, then home. Petrol used, nil.

It has nothing to do with where you live, its average journey length. How often do most people do an 800 mile trip?

I recently did a 325 mile trip. I stopped twice on the motorway for a coffee and parked right by the door to the services in a charging bay and got a free charge both times. The car did 35 mpg when running on petrol because I wasn't hanging about. So 7 gallons to do 325 miles because I did 75 on electric = 46 mpg in a large SUV. Today's 23 mile trip cost me 55p for electricity which equates to about 200 mpg

What's not to like?

I'm sure they make sense to a lot of people, it's just the cost. I guess I had it in my mind that a hybrids purpose was to save fuel money, and it does now and again for the odd short trip. Truth is, a modern diesel would cost far less to buy and run overall and there's no battery replacement worries for the future. I did want to buy a small fully electric car just to whizz around town and get to work in. But as you have to rent the battery, at £45 a month minimum, the cost per mile would be double, if not triple that of my current car.

Compared to similar sized vehicles they save fuel on almost every trip. Mine cost exactly the same to buy as the equivalent diesel powered model.
There are a few models where you can lease the battery if you want, but that's an option to bring the cost down, you don't have to do it.

There's a Tesla all electric saloon car that has a 300+ mile range and can use a super fast charger that give you 170 miles in 30 minutes. Very expensive just now, but the technology is clearly there and will get cheaper.

It does 0 to 62 in 4.4 seconds too!

Just remembered another diesel hybrid Ben, the new Range Rover. In the review it got 40 MPG on the motorway, and 36 MPG on normal roads. Full test here: Range Rover Sport Hybrid GREEN CAR REVIEW - GreenCarGuide.co.uk

I love diesels, but i can't get that light metallic green mk1 insight out of my head...!

Renault was doing a battery lease only with their BEVs. This allowed the purchase price for the car to be the same or lower than the equivalent liquid fueled car. Until recently, it was the only way to buy one of their BEVs, but it raises issues. How is the battery lease handled when the car is sold used? How does insurance work in conjunction on a car that is owned with a major component leased? Etc.

This actually lead to slower BEV sales. So they now have a purchase option for the battery. No Renaults at all here in the States (I'd like to see the Twizzy), but the Smart ED has a battery lease option here. It lowers the price, which really isn't an issue for the car, and includes a more robust warranty with annual testing on the battery. I'd say it is more to assuage battery replacement jitters for first time plug in buyers.

A replacement battery for a Leaf runs about $4000 to $5000, which is about how much one for the 2005 Prius cost back when I had it. The Leaf pack is ten to twenty times larger than that Prius one. Nissan and others are willing to take some loss on replacing a plugin pack in order to insure they get their hands on the bad one for study, and more importantly, for positive PR for the new market segment.

The prices are dropping on new batteries. When Tesla's Gigafactory goes live, they will be making Li-ion ones for $200 a kWh. When the Leaf first came to market, the price may have been around $700 a kWh, and it is likely around $500 a kWh now. Replacement packs should be cheaper, because it is rare that the entire pack is bad. They are made up of a hundred plus cells arranged in stacks. One bad cell will make the entire stack bad to the car's computer. Small businesses are popping up here that hunt down the bad cell in a 'dead' pack, and replace them for a fraction of a new pack's cost.

There are several ways of defining a hybrid system. One is whether it is an 'add on' to the tradtional drivetrain or if it replaces the traditional transmission. Honda's IMA was an add on, and the first or so of the mkI Insight were manual transmission only. CVTs were then used because Americans, and maybe Japanese, prefer automatics, and because the problems they had with bad battery management were made worse with a manual that allowed the driver to 'lug' the battery. Hyundai's and VW's system are another two that are add on.

The new two motor system in the Accord, Toyota's, Ford's, and GM's Voltec systems replace the transmission. They are called eCVT because they behave like a CVT when driven. Ford and Toyota systems contain a single planetary gear that has a motor and the ICE inputing to it. The computer controls to torque from each to simulate 'variable gears', but it is as mechanically complicated as a single speed manual with no clutch. The GM is similar to that with some clutch packs to allow a physical disconnect between the wheels and ICE for the EV mode.

The Accord system is even simpler, so it should be even more reliable than an automatic and manual. There is a clutch to disconnect the wheels and ICE, because it runs as a serial hybrid at low and medium speeds, like a locomotive. The conversion losses become too great at highway speeds. The ICE clutches in then, and there is maybe three physical gears between it and the output shaft to the wheels.


In short, hybrids with an eCVT don't have a traditional transmissions at all; the hybrid system is the transmission. They have far fewer parts than the traditional transmission that can fail. Even if it were possible, manual control of them would reduce efficiency, since a human couldn't control them as well as the electronics.

In theory, the CVT is the most efficient transmission for an ICE, simply because it can keep the engine at its most efficient load and rpm for the entire time it is accelerating. Some have a torque converter with its lossiness though. Then people are just used shifts on a car, so they don't like CVTs, at least in the US. So the car makers program virtual gears into some of their CVTs. Which makes no sense, and defeats the purpose.

The AC motors used in BEVs and PHVs with a full EV mode are efficient over a wide range of their rpm curve. SO they don't need multi speed gear boxes for acceleration or efficiency. DC motors aren't though. These were commonly used in BEV conversions, and were just hooked up to a car's manual transmission. This allowed a smaller and cheaper motor. It is possible a future econo BEV would use a DC motor for cost reasons, and then it might have a two or three speed gear box Continental has a design or two for them. They are automatic, but far simpler and more efficient than an ICE automatic.

The trouble with fully electric cars is the huge depreciation, I guess they don't appeal as much as a conventional car, or a hybrid. I've seen a few Twizzys for sale for just £3495 now, and the large Renault fluence for just £5000 with just a few thousand miles on the clock. When you consider how much the battery is worth, or would cost to replace, it almost makes a fully electric car obsolete V's a hybrid or conventional car.

Thanks trollbait, that is a great piece of writing, very informative

First, i wouldn't go by Renault BEV prices on used ones. The entire battery available for lease only has made a real mess there. How much would you be willing to pay for a used car if the ICE wasn't included, but had to be leased directly from the manufacture as the only option.

Many places where plugins are available have some type of incentive. That is going to have a negative impact on the used car prices.

The only negative story on plugin battery life has been with Leafs in the high heat of Arizona. But then the cars haven't been out for a full decade yet, so battery life is still a concern for many. The Prius will have been out for twenty years soon, and people still talk about being worried about its battery life.

The battery technology has been steadily improving, which has lead to steadily increasing performance and decreasing prices for the car. The second generation Volt's starting MSRP is something like $1,165 less than the outgoing model's, which has already received a $5,000 price cut, and maybe more, since its initial debut. So they have some of that high tech depreciation.

On top of that, gas is cheap. Back when the price spiked above $4/gallon, used hybrids were going for more than new ones. When it goes back up, so will these cars' used values.

I think the situation is rather different in Europe. The current petrol price in the UK for a US size gallon is about £4.50, which is roughly 7 dollars at todays exchange rate. And thats considered to be quite low compared to the trends of the last few years. Diesel is more expensive than that. Part of the reason they sold a lot of them in 2014.

It's actually £5.31 average across the UK, which is almost $8. I don't know if you've noticed, but there is currently a 1p difference between petrol and diesel at the minute, must be the smallest difference in decades. At least that's the case localy.

Edit, sorry my price was for UK gallon.

As I said, gas is cheap. It is less so in the UK and Europe, but as long as people are still saying the price difference of a hybrid will buy X amount of fuel, it is low enough to have a negative impact on high efficiency and alternate fueled vehicles.

Diesel is around the same price or lower than premium gas in California. It has been higher in the Northeast since ULSD came out though. It is currently about 60 to 70 cents higher than regular gas per gallon now. In the winter, when gas hit its low point, it was a dollar or more in difference. Used diesels still hold their value, but now VW is willing to make deals on their TDIs.

I think the battery lease only policy of Renault has really messed up the price of their BEVs in the used market. The Leaf will be a better judge of much BEVs depreciate. I believe Nissan built a factory for them to avoid the import tariffs that the other plugins will have.

The main benefit of leasing the battery is that when it's time for replacement, it's free of course. Given the uncertainty of battery pricing, it's probably a good idea in theory. Whether it's cheaper to lease a battery and get it replaced for free, or pay for the battery outright, then pay for another when replacement is due, only time will tell. Of course, as hybrids become more advanced, so do diesel. As I have mentioned a few times lately, it's not uncommon to be able to soon get a small diesel that can do in excess of 90 to 140 MPG in the near future, as Europe is already hooked on diesels, it's likely to prove these small economical simplistic engines will still be favoured over hybrids.

To be precise you have to remember that a US gallon is smaller, 0.8326 of a UK gallon.

According to the AA's April fuel price report the average price of unleaded is 113.3 or £5.15 a gallon , up from 111.9 in March. The average diesel price is 118.8, (£5.40 a gallon) 5.5 pence a litre more, or about 25 pence a gallon.

To get a US gallon equivalent price you have to multiply £5.15 by 0.8326 which comes to £4.29. I just looked up the exchange rate and its $1.55. £4.29 *1.55 = $6.65 per US gallon.

Mind you, where I live (rural) the only garage within 8 miles is 119.9 for unleaded and the SAME for diesel. I used to think they were giving us a good deal on diesel, but now I can see they're actually ripping us off on unleaded. Last week I had to buy petrol from the motorway services thieves and it was £1.23.

Still, petrol here is cheaper than its been since 2009. 3 years ago it was roughly 30 pence a litre more than now!

A modern diesel engine is very far from simplistic.

Paris and London to ban diesel engines:

London will follow Paris and ban diesel cars, campaigners warn - Telegraph

It's a good idea to ban diesels in cities, they should have done it years ago. Diesels are best suited to country crossing motorway users, and those like me, who live rural and are forced to do a lot of miles per year because everything is far away, economy becomes very important. If you want to check average, min and max fuel prices for the UK, then visit petrolprices.com, you can also put you postcode in and it will tell you where the cheapest fuel is in your area ;)

Thanks, that's where I got my "best" local price 119.9 from. We get our diesel fuelled up locally, but we can usually fill up the hybrid when we pass somewhere cheaper.

Devon's very expensive for fuel, how is it in mid Wales?

I agree that there are some advantages to leasing the battery for a BEV, and offering a choice can make public adoption of the technology quicker. But few car makers offer the choice. Renault doesn't offer that choice. It is lease only, which may have lead to a negative impact on resale value that is indictative of all the other BEVs out there.

I asked how much you would be willing to pay for a used car if the engine wasn't included, but had to be leased from the manufacturer(Renault has been pretty mum about specific specs for the battery, so building your own will be difficult). Yes, you would get a whole new(more likely refurbished) engine if something went wrong, but engines generally don't go wrong during a car's life these days. if it does, it is likely something minor that would easily be covered in the savings of just buying the engine vs leasing it. It might even be something that you can fix your self.

In terms of reliability and lifespan, a BEV battery is pretty close to the ICE or transmission. It will eventually need to be replaced, and likely sooner than those traditional parts, but it may not be as soon or as sudden as many fear.

A traction pack is considered dead when capacity is reduced to about 80% for a BEV. That isn't low enough to kill the car and leave it unusable. If the range is still long enough for a person's needs, there isn't a need to replace the battery. The same is true of a transmission that won't shift into OD. There is no real need to replace or repair it if the owner doesn't need it for highway cruising on a regular basis.

Considering that the above conditions likely won't crop up in the car until it is approaching ten years of age, then the cost to fix them might be more than what the car is worth. Or it might be a cheap fix for those with the skills and time.

That's the problem with selling a used BEV in which the battery is lease only. Yes, the battery will get replaced if it goes bad, but you are basically prepaying for that part on a car that still has the worn suspension, squeaks and creaks, faded paint, and maybe rusty body panels of a used one.

It shouldn't be a diesel vs hybrid question. Both have strengths and weaknesses, and more hybridization will come in time. In some quarters, the basic auto stop device is called a micro-hybrid.

I think diesels have the best prospects for renewable fuels, but they still need to improve on emissions. Onboard emission testing of vehicles out on public roads is now economical. While diesels are conforming to regulation testing, these real life tests have shown that the regulation tests are off from have the cars are driven. Gasoline cars may exceed their NOx limit by 10% out on the public roads. Diesel are emitting twice as much, maybe more, on the same routes.

Without better emission testing that reflect the actual conditions a car is driven under, and diesels then meeting them, the cars' days are likely numbered in many European cities.

Probably much the same, semi rural, very little competition between the two petrol stations here. It's a touristy place much like Devon, so garages charge higher prices because they know people need to fill up somewhere.

Trollbait, thanks again for the info, very interesting ;)

If you enjoy tinkering with cars, like manual transmissions, go Gen1 Insight. The unofficial "King of the Hypermilers" according to Jack Martin is Wayne Gerdes from Chicago. He drove "2,254 miles on a single 13.7-gallon tank of gas during the Honda Insight Marathon in Oklahoma last year." That's an average of 164.53 miles per gallon over the whole distance.

If you get tired of the mpg, you can throw a 2.4 liter Honda engine in and beat Turbo Porsches in acceleration.

Richard, M. G. (2008, June 30). Honda Insight Hybrid Wins Hypermiling Competition with 124 Miles per Gallon : TreeHugger. Retrieved from Honda Insight Hybrid Wins Hypermiling Competition with 124 Miles per Gallon : TreeHugger


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