Trump and the Auto Industry
 

Trump Threatens To Repeal Fuel Economy And Emissions Regulations
https://jalopnik.com/trump-threatens-...-re-1788755276

Auto Industry Fears Trump's Tariffs Could Add $5,000 To The Price Of A Small Car
https://jalopnik.com/auto-industry-fe...to-1788813831]

Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers Submits Letter to Trump on Fuel Economy
https://www.thestreet.com/story/1388...l-economy.html

Not a fan of Trump for obvious reasons, but would be interesting to see the impact in the coming years. I doubt that he would get rid of FE regs, but perhaps tweak them to make it easier for car manufacturers plus the fact that Americans are buying trucks and SUVs in droves, both of which are NOT GOOD.

Ideally, I'd want emissions to be tweaked to allow more efficient passenger diesels and to get rid of FMVSS and replace with UN-ECE standards so we get access to the global car market with just as safe cars with their more efficient powertrains (like VW BlueMotion tech), but that doesn't seem likely since he's apparently anti-trade. Getting rid of FMVSS would also allow us to import any car we want from any year. One can only dream...

Wondered how long before we saw something about Trump on here. The bloke is going to be an absolute disaster, and we thought Brexit was a bad idea. I just don't get how someone with his level of naivety, arrogance, and lack of experience gets elected, besides all the hatred he's been spreading about various sexes, religions, races etc, really baffles me.

But apart from all that, he believes climate change is a "hoax" despite billions being spent on scientific research that has proven the opposite for the last 30 years or so. He wants to rip the solar panels off the white house, drop out the Paris climate change treaty, and start drilling for oil again. He will be a complete environmental disaster. Also, if he actually goes ahead and bans 1.6 billion people for thier religious beliefs, I vow never to step on US soil whilst he's in office. Good luck.

The last entrepreneur who was elected President, dropped the only two nukes ever used in warfare.

Look at Japan today. Look at Germany.

We will see, at least those of us who make it another 4 years. It will be interesting as long as the profligate spending, by both parties, especially in the last 8 years, was NOT the straw that broke the Camel's back.

The first breath you take, born in the USA today, brings you a $60,000 debt bill, We have basically hocked our coubtry to the total level of the National NET Worth, around 70-80 trillion dollars.

What happens to those note holders when they lose faith in our ability to repay. This planet has never seen anything close to the collapse that will follow and any chance to reverse that course is rapidly vanishing in unfathomable levels of debt.

It would be fun to be a part of the solution.

regards
mech

His transition team/cabinet appointments deeply trouble me. I don't know the details of all these positions, but it's full of absolute sociopathic pricks. Climate change denier for the EPA, for example. A white nationalist for strategist. War hawks for national security, etc.

What The Trump Presidency Could Mean For The Auto Industry

^Mostly speculation here, as we essentially don't know jack about his actual proposed policies (if any exist).

Trucking Group Starts Meeting With Donald Trump’s Transition Team - WSJ

^They want trucking regulations to be more relaxed, which could threaten public safety and health (i.e. hours logging, speed limiters, etc.).

Regarding Global Warming, I know that there are scientists that claim it's a hoax and there are scientists that back it up with proof, but regardless of what everyone is saying people in general should be smart enough to see what is happening around the World. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to realize the weather is all messed up around the World. According to some scientists, you will be able to sail across the North Pole by 2020. Here is a video showing the North Pole in the last 30 years:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vj1G9gqhkYA

Also, if anyone is interested, Leonardo DiCaprio came out with a new documentary called Before The Flood, you can see it on YouTube.

Regardless of what you believe about Global warming, you'd have to be pretty retarded to deny the fact that air pollution/exhaust gasses and particulate matter are toxic to humans and animals. We should be moving away from fossils regardless of any scientific theory, and whether global warming is natural or not.

In 1983, living in the Florida Keys,average temperatures fell long enough to see the Ocean water temperature drop to close to 60 degrees. Lower than that temperature and the Coral Reefs that have lived in the area for millions of years will die.

Too cold. One of the reasons the prediction of "snowball earth" was changed to "climate change".

The Indians told the English and French explorers there was a passage above Canada 400 years ago. Now we blame that on climate change.

Study the effects of two volcanic eruptions, Krakatoa and Tambora in the 19th century.

Also the "mini ice age" from 1400 to the mid 1800s AD.

Snow in July in New England. The Irish Potato famine. Freezing temperatures in Savannah Georgia the night on the 4th of July 1815 (I think the year is correct been a while since I read that information).

Our instrumentation capabilities are a very recent event in global history. What happened to the 35% atmospheric oxygen content when the dinosaurs lived. Must have been a very catastrophic event that lead to OUR evolution.

Maybe we shouldn't be here in the first place, but it certainly was not humans who changed the climate when we did not exist.

I remember when air pollution was bad, really bad, when I was young.

Remember when England banned the use of bituminous coal.

Remember the notorious London fogs.

Recently it was stated that the east coast of the USA was 25% less air polluted than 40 years ago. Modern emission controlled vehicles produce 1/80th of the toxic emissions of cars from the 50-60s.

I prefer rational thought and analysis over name calling and prejudice.

What???? Prejudice by whom would that be from.

For me the biggest elephant in the room is the number of people on the planet. If we double the number of people we have to halve the pollution just to stand still. The reverse is also true though, if we reduce the population by 10% we have reduced pollution by 10% without actually doing anything.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for improving efficiency and saving the planet, but I just think that no one is looking at the population issue seriously, not yet anyway. It is a very emotive subject, but to put a lighter note on it, I like Billy Connolly's solution, "You eat someone I don't like and I'll eat someone you don't like"

Food for thought :)

Oliver.

Yes increasing population puts higher demand on energy/food/resource consumption etc. But there are huge differences between different countries. Take the US for example, they are HUGE consumers of food, fuel, oil, energy but are only 5% of the Worlds population. They create 7 pounds of man made waste per day, 3 times what people in the UK produce, they use 30% of the Worlds resources and create at least 25% of the Worlds pollution, using the same amount of petrol as the other 7,000,000,000 people combined. China also create a lot of pollution, but their population is over 1000% higher than the US. If you look at poorer countries, and third World countries, their energy demands are substantially lower.

There's more than enough tech available now to be carbon free in almost every aspect, but legislation, government investment and a whole bunch of other things get in the way, mainly for tax revenue gains etc.

Report Says Canada Creates More Garbage Per Capita Than Any Other Country In The Developed World

But somehow they use more water than us, time to flush the toilet again..

North America's population is growing in all countries and with growth there is energy and waste produced.

At this time, it doesn't matter what breaks are given to ICE-based cars.

Steady technology advances are making electric cars more attractive every year.

When the $35k Tesla and $37k GM Bolt become available in the next couple of years, they will be the beginning of the end for ICE-based cars.

"Fuel economy standards set by the Obama administration for the 2022 to 2025 model years will remain, the Environmental Protection Agency has stated."
Nah, We're Keeping our Fuel Economy Targets: EPA

Notable comments on this article:

Yep, CAFE numbers are based on the old test cycle.
https://i.imgur.com/3O3ZP0C.jpg

Found this table of 2014 vehicle models that includes their CAFE MPG and targets for 2016 and 2025; https://www.nap.edu/read/21744/chapter/35#436

Few of those examples missed their 2016 targets; most that did were within 1 mpg of it. Some of those traditional ICE cars met the 2025 targets, or were close. The Fusion hybrid is 66.1mpg and last generation Prius 70.6mpg for CAFE.

While it may not help fuel economy out in the real world by the way many drive, turbocharging with engine downsizing alone can get a car close to its 2016 CAFE target. Throw in direct injection, variable valve lift, and perhaps an 8 speed plus automatic, and 2025 targets are reachable.

Then cars get a boost to their CAFE value for having a simple start/stop system. Plug ins already have extremely high CAFE numbers, and each one sold counts as more than one car for determining a company's CAFE value. IIRC, it is a 1.4 to 1.7 multiplier depending of whether it is a PHEV or BEV, and its EV range. A company might not even need a plug in for CAFE if they have some desirable full hybrids to balance out their models that don't quite reach the 2025 target.

Trump just signed an executive order (this bypasses Congress for those outside the US) that would cancel the Trans-Pacific partnership.

What Does The Withdrawal From TPP Mean For The U.S Auto Industry?

TL;DR - Not much, just preserves the status quo on the truck market, as the deal would have eliminated the 25% tariff on imported foreign trucks to the US.

I'm glad CAFE exists at all, because for decades the US truck market has not seen much foreign competition (besides the gas guzzling Toyotas and Nissans built and adapted for the US market) and has been lazy with regards to fuel economy and CAFE has been prodding them along to dump their traditional V8s with four speed autos for V6 turbos and such with 9-10 speed transmissions.

Trump has the ability to rescind ALL of Obama's Executive Orders. Obama used EOs to skirt working with Congressional approval. The democrats gave the Executive Branch those powers. Because of that, now that there's a Republican President, "the chickens are coming home to roost". If Obama had gone through congress instead of EOing himself, Trump would've had a much, much more difficult time dismantling Obama's efforts. Easy come. Easy go.

One of the principal reasons I bought my Mirage. It should last until the electrics take over, or I just stop driving altogether, whichever comes first. Right now I'm laughing all the way to the bank. Drove close to 200 miles today in nasty drizzle rain, almost every mile interstate or 60 mph secondary roads, higher speeds sustained. Under 4 gallons of $2 a gallon gas. Wife's 71st birthday. Left the Rogue and truck at home. She doesn't like the fact I use rain-x and leave the wipers off but following big rigs at 65-70 in heavy drizzle is just poor visibility.

52 mpg :rolleyes:

52mpg?! Nice talent.

Me, too, Gary. My 1989 Civic hatchback (world's smallest station wagon) and 2001 Miata are the last ICE cars I'll own. Next vehicle will be a pure EV, perhaps a Tesla Model 4.

Because an EV has 10x fewer moving parts than an ICE car, my first EV will likely be my last vehicle, too.

I imagine the feeling of moving from an ICE to an EV will be the same as putting one's horse to pasture in favor of early automobiles.

The first President to issue an executive order was George Washington. The power creep of the US President is the fault of all Congresses.

Trump wants to 'cut regulations by 75%' to boost US manufacturing.

People are saying those EPA targets may soon be on the chopping block under Trump.

Trump Says Environmentalism 'Is Out Of Control'; In Breakfast With Automaker CEOs

Ok, can this please mean we're getting more diesels? lol

The only casualty from the death of the TPP: fuel efficient and practical imported small trucks.

The Death Of The TPP Means You Can Kiss Your Imported Small Truck Dreams Goodbye

Not everyone in Europe hates Trump, watch this!

https://youtu.be/j-xxis7hDOE

hahahaha They did a GREAT job impersonating Trump's speaking pattern.

Knowing how you feel about Trump, Paul, I suspected something fishy.

Executive Orders Coming to EPA, but Will Automakers Get Their Wish?

Stay tuned.

Interesting discussions they're having down in the comments section. What I love about reading TTAC.

Also this update. The guy who tried to sue the EPA like 14 times is now the head of the EPA.

https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...nate-head-epa/

I remember when Pop went to a new Air Force base to start the process of computerizing payroll operations, back when the US debt was maybe half a trillion dollars, 1/40th of what it is now.

The people at that base were scared that they would loose their jobs and they tried everything to get dirt on Pop, thinking if they could bribe him or get him fired, was the solution to the inevitable automation they and millions of others faced over the next 4-5 decades.

They even hired hookers to pick him up at a bar and videotape the "compromising" actions they were sure he would take when faced with such temptation.

Now those workers, at least the ones that really looked to the future, are some of the highest paid IT specialists, operators, and systems analysts with great job security and benefits the rest of us could only dream of having.

I once asked my brother to give me a referral for an attorney to prosecute a breach of contract case. He told me to hire this attorney, the one that had sued his company 4 times and won 3 of the four suits.

It's odd to assert that "we thought Brexit was a bad idea" when your form of representative government approved it, and to assert that Trump is naive and arrogant whilst simultaneously misunderstanding american policy.

People in the US buy cars that fit their needs and desires. The federal policy that made cars smaller and more fuel efficient just pushed affluent people into trucks. In my morning commute, "Mini"vans (what's "mini" about a two ton Honda with a 270hp engine?) and SUVs easily outnumber cars. Lots of families have two or three of these trucks, and not a single car.

I don't believe you would see average fuel efficiency decrease in the US if the EPA scraped its mileage floors, though you might see larger cars marketed to people who now buy trucks.

In other words, the US National Debt was 1/40th of what it is today until Gary's Dad was hired to computerize the federal payroll.

DAMN, I'M FUNNY! :)

Automakers Didn't Waste a Day Asking New EPA Head for Relief

CAFE is stupid anyway, because it's largely based on vehicle footprint (i.e. longer wheelbase, more lax efficiency targets and vice versa). I'll save that for a separate thread :)

Whether or not Trump relaxes the CAFE rules doesn't really matter at this time. EVs have established a beachhead and will only become more popular as battery tech improves yearly.

If Trump is wise, he'll play his "card" by appeasing the car companies knowing that, in the long game, it really doesn't matter.

The USA car companies are repeating history. GM won their California CAFE battle and used that victory to crush their EV1 project in 1999. Meanwhile, Toyota rolled with the CAFE rule punches and produced the first Prius in 1997. Gee. The Prius has been in production for 20 years?

The automotive lobbying group asking for this includes nearly all the manufacturers.

Toyota did crush some of their Rav4 EVs at the time before bowing to public outcry. The Prius got government support back home.

EPA to Reopen Fuel Efficiency Review Next Week: Report

"If the Trump administration were to rely on facts and sound science, they would come to the same conclusion that the EPA staff and outside experts reached"

Trump relying on facts and science?! Haha

Ford Motor Company has come a long way with pickup FE as measured by my own personal experience, regardless of what the naysayers have been claiming, but that has happened only recently, and it appears these gains are appreciable only when consumers choose pickups that are on the lower scale of the mass, power, axle ratio, and bling level. I'd like to see the CAFE standards stick. They are definitely helping push technology on this current round. I've owned and/or driven at work, several std cabs or scab F150s, 2WD, short beds with high gearing. A 1989 with an I6 returned me 18 lifetime; a '97 small V8, 15.5; a '99 V6 16.5; a 2010 small V8, 20; and now a 2.7 liter DI turbo V6 returns me 24 commuting the same speeds, routes and driving style as those other trucks.

Professional reviewers and Fuelly do not reveal the same great results as my real-world experience, but I think the main problem is that most Americans and reviewers choose the $40K plus crew cabs with lots of extras; 4WD; large wheel/tire combos; add drag enhancing accessories; push hard on the gas; and then claim there is no benefit to these smaller-displaced engine choices with turbo charging. But I know for a fact that I cannot take an NA choice from any manufacturer of a full size truck that has any decent amount of low-end torque and get near the mpg that I'm achieving with my current F150 Ecoboost. The Ram Ecodiesel is even better, but the price starts at almost $11K more than my truck and its sales are currently banned due to an FCA emissions cheating scandal.

Keep it up, Paul. Just remember that he who laughs last laughs best. ;)

I remember what air pollution was like and Trump does also. It would be like London going back to Bituminous Coal. Those who grew up prior to the passing of the various laws that started with Positive Crankcase Ventilation in 1963 remember engine blowby going out a pipe directly into the atmosphere.

No sane person wants to go back there. The deaths and hospital admissions would skyrocket. Health care costs would follow suit.

If the predicted transition to electric and self driving cars is anywhere near factual, the inertia is inevitably going to go that way. My brother told me personal transportation is doomed. No insurance company would touch the last motor vehicle operator. The question remains, when.

Trillions of dollars in transportation assets rendered obsolete. No need for traffic lights or any other "impediments" to the conservation of momentum, which is essential for efficiency.

Worrying about pollution or emissions seems to fall to the irrelevant wayside, since the transformation is inevitable.

If you think a single individual can significantly alter that global evolution of transportation, I have trouble following that thought train, since the rest of the planet will just leave them behind.

^Every American should visit a smog-choked developing third world country. I've been to India a few times and I am VERY grateful for our air quality here in the US, as well as other things like clean streets.

"Trump to Undo Vehicle Rules That Curb Global Warming"
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/03/u...tion.html?_r=0

"Trump Said Open to Relaxing Obama’s Auto Fuel Efficiency Targets"
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...sion-standards

They seem to keep repeating the same thing every week, not being very specific on what exactly will be changed. Only mention the 2025 targets. There will be an announcement on Tuesday...

If that's true, it would be a great shame. The auto industry has spent billions researching and developing EV's over recent years, and they're not far of the point of being affordable for mass market.

Cleaner, greener renewable energy is now cheaper in over 30 countries, the cost of setting up a solar farm is now less than a coal plant. There's no excuse to go back to fossils now when green energy is this affordable.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/28/n...pgtype=article

No way we go back to this. Automakers have been complaining about meeting emissions standards as long as Obama has been alive, so it's disingenuous to attribute clean air to his EOs and the Times should know this.

All Newspapers in the US are obsolete and will soon become as extinct as the dinosaurs.

Still no announcement yet by the Trump administration regarding EPA fuel economy standards. But this is significant:

Eleven senators send letter to EPA's Pruitt calling for fuel economy standards not to be rolled back