Gas Prices Up again
 

https://66.70.86.46/test.gaschart?Cou...&Unit=US%20$/G

I am shure you guys know this already(the prices are up). I am seeing $2.69/gallon localy. $3/gallon is only a few months away.

Up with gas prices!!!
 

:cool:

Up with gas prices!!!

maybe those SUV b*tches can
 

maybe those SUV b*tches can finally stop tailgating me?

Yes many SUV drivers over here are women... which suprirsingly are more aggressive than men these days.

good, now manufacturers will
 

good, now manufacturers will come out with even better economical cars.

Quote:good, now
 

Yeah, If the price stays high they will. Well, In a few years.

Long term High prices will result in: more fuel efficient vehicals/ alternative fuel vehicals/ less people living in suburbs. Well, that is what i think.

Let us look to the rabbit
 

Let us look to the rabbit diesel L. 48 mpg in the late 70s early 80s. Why? Ye olde fuel crisis. Hell, they even managed to make a pick up that got over 40 mpg, :)

Not like this piece of **** honda truck that a 17 year old girl I go to school with drives. I guess that's better than the land rover her friend drives. I hate the stuck up people at my school sometimes, don't give a poorly handling, ****tily braking, death mobile to a kid that can't drive. Let alone a kid that gets wasted every weekend.

the prices will soon average
 

the prices will soon average $3 anyway. Remember about 2 years ago when prices were $2.40-2.50 and everybody was complaining.

I remember when I was in 4th
 

I remember when I was in 4th grade and gas was .699, :p

Re: I remember when I was in 4th
 

I remember September 13th, 2001 when gas was .90 per gallon. I couldn't figure that one out at all.

Everyone to scurred to leave
 

Everyone to scurred to leave the house = no demand but high supply?

Re: Everyone to scurred to leave
 

I have no idea what caused the gas prices to drop after 9/11. My wife tells me that some gas stations in Utah were charging $5/gallon, probably under the assumption that oil would no longer be available or something.

Anyway, I remember gas prices falling below a dollar, and then steadily rising and rising, where they peaked after Katrina last year.

Re: I remember when I was in 4th
 

I remember that day too. All the Bin Laden's in America were sent back in private planes.

The auto industry won't give
 

The auto industry won't give us the best they can, however.

Even in the 70s, we could have had 50-60 mpg midsize cars with powerful engines through adressing aerodynamic drag, but the auto industry just refused to go there. If the best the industry could do was a 48 mpg diesel Rabbit compact that takes 20 seconds to go from 0-60, that right there tells us there are problems in the industry. The Viking Rearch Institute at Western Washington University was building 80 mpg sportscars that did 0-60 mph in 5 seconds and topped 170 mph in the 1970s! How? Making a body with a small frontal area around 15 feet square and a .18 drag coefficient! Compare to the Lamborghinis and Ferraris of the era that had similar performance but got like 8-10 mpg.

A typical car in the 70s had a .4 Cd. Cars today have about a .35 Cd. Even though they might look streamlined, they really haven't gotten much better. The most aerodynamic cars on the market are the Honda Insight and Toyota Prius hybrids, with a .25 and .26 drag coefficient, respectively. This is hardly better than the 1928 Rumpler, with a .27 drag coefficient. The pinnacle of what the auto industry is willing to bare today has a body that is barely more efficient than a car that is 80 years old!

In 1933, Buckminster Fuller made his Dymaxion, with a .25 Cd. In 1935 came the Tatra T77a, a full size luxury car with a .21 Cd. In 1954, we had the Hotchkiss Gregiore and Fiat Turbina, with .26 and .14 Cd respectively. In 1957 there was the Alfa Romeo BAT7, with a .19 Cd. 1985 yielded the Ford Probe V, with a .137 Cd, 1987 the GM Citation IV with a .19 Cd, 1996 the Dodge Intrepid ESX2 with a .19 Cd, 2000 the GM Precept with .16 Cd. The auto industry has proven they can make aero designs, but refuses to mass produce and sell them. Small businesses have made such cars with great success in the distant past, but political wrangling by the larger industries and various historical circumstances lead to their demise(ie. Buckminster Fuller was refused production of his Dymaxion with executives telling him outright that his design was too advanced and they'd have nothing more advanced to sell for years to come. WWII bankrupted Tatra, but their cars were a big hit for being fuel efficient, big, AND fast.) The auto industry doesn't make aero designs precisely because they want to slowly ration out technological advancements to maximize profit on each one. Even today's hybrids have technology that was first used in our deisel locomotives in the 1940s. The current cars available to the mass market in the U.S. are about 50 years outdated in most of their technology(barring the complex and expensive to maintain computer crap). Essentially 1950s dinosaurs with fancy electronics, tacky bubble shaped designs that look aerodynamic but really aren't, and crumple zones; not much else to them.

We could today have a midsize car with a 200 horsepower turbodiesel that would get 80 mpg. How? Low aero drag, LRR tires, and synthetic transmission oil all in the same car. Such a car would be longer than a typical car today, have more storage space, more leg room and headroom. No new technology needed, everything available right off the shelf. The biggest gain in fuel economy would be from drag reduction. This wouldn't be no econobox, but a car at least the size of a Toyota Camry or Ford Fusion, if not larger. Keep all the GPS and TV crap out of the car, and weight could be kept at a reasonable 2,900-3,000 pounds. 0-60 mph would be around 6-7 seconds and a very high top speed(~180 mph with no governor, but lack of sufficient downforce may require an electronic limitation at say, 150, for safety purposes). Pricetag? Perhaps only $20,000. And we haven't even added a hybrid drive yet! Now wouldn't that thing sell like mad? Too bad the profit margins aren't like the $12,000 seen on today's SUVs... Money talks and bull**** walks, bull**** even meaning consumer demand for fuel economy as far as the auto companies are concerned.

Alternative fuel vehicles? Forget it. We had the technology for pure electric cars with 200-300 mile range and fast acceleration since the 1990s. Studies have repeatedly pegged the initial market at a minimum of 12% of new cars(In that particular instance of 12%, this was for an electric car with 80 miles range. It would be a lot higher if repeated for say, 200 miles range). The auto industry flat out refuses to make them because the cars will last much longer and cost much less to run for the consumer, reducing profit margins for the industry as a result of decreased revenue. The auto industry doesn't want you driving around in a car that will last 50 years and have a motor that lasts 500,000+ miles without ever needing maintainance. Gasoline for automobiles is 45% of America's oil consumption as well, so naturally the oil and auto industry teamed up to kill the EV. Add in the G7 nations making more money in oil tax revenues than OPEC and it's quite obvious why we don't have EVs. We won't have electric cars unless they are mandated. The demand is there and the 'market' refuses to bare. The liklihood of a sucessfully executed mandate is very slim given that the two main parties are steadfastly against this technology taking hold(the auto industry is 5% of America's GDP and the government doesn't want to have negative economic growth and reduced tax revenues. Add in all the auto/oil industry lobbying and 'we the people' end up ignored). Don't even make me mention Europe's tax happy politicians and their aversion to reducing revenues...

We would also have biodiesel widely available in the U.S. if there were a plant that had a consistently positive energy return of energy invested and require little or no fertilizer or pesticide inputs. Soybeans and corn just can't do it. What can? Industrial hemp. But big government refuses to give farmers the permits to grow it. Realistically, without stripping the remainder of the wilderness and instead simply using what farmland we have developed, we could meet the equivalent of roughly 20% of America's oil needs from hemp based biofuels without compromising food production. This may not seem like much, but if you couple it with hyper efficient biodiesel cars that get 60-100 mpg, it will go a very long way. But legalize this wonder plant, and Monsanto, DuPont, Standard Oil, and all of these other entreched industries will ***** like crazy because it threatens their bottom line. In fact, in the 1930s, it was William Randolph Hearst of the wood paper industry along with the steel industry and petrochemical industries like DuPont that helped kill its prospects in America. They lobbied the politicians to keep this plant from being used in a manner beneifical to society. This plant could even make car body panels 10 times more dent resistant than steel with 1/3 the weight, as demonstrated by Henry Ford's hemp-bodied Model A.

Look where we are now. Approaching or having already passed peak oil, with very serious implications to our living standards, our security, and our long term future. Yet there are solutions all around us, being denied to us this entire time. But instead of adopting these solutions, we have oil wars, to keep the money flowing to those on the top. Now China and India want to motorize, banning bicycles from the roads and dismantling mass transit to force car consumption in effort to induce economic growth, the same exact mistakes America's government made in the 1940s...

government is always
 

government is always involved to make sure they can profit from anything. Governerment is basically a lot of corporations. These corporations are connected to countries that have oil.

You want a 80mpg car then build your own.

Fuel Prices
 

FYI: I saw prices for gas in DC starting at $3.09 for regular

it's $2.79 where I live. I
 

it's $2.79 where I live. I get my gas for $2.59 at Shell.

Quote:You want a 80mpg car
 

For us Americans, unfortunately that is the only way to get one.

Europe has the Audi A2 TDi 3L, gets about 70 mpg, 0-60 mph in 14 seconds, top speed of 110, seats 4 adults, .26 drag coefficient. That is the best the auto industry is willing to offer there; combining fuel efficient with slow and small. Lower the drag coefficient to say .16, elongate the car into a luxury saloon that weighs ~3,200 pounds, and add a V8 diesel, and roughly the same fuel economy could be kept with outrageously high performance, increased room, and increased storage space. Thier current diesel V8 A8 luxury sedan gets about 35 mpg, .26 drag coefficient, and 5,000 pounds weight. Why not build a more efficient car with the same engine for a normal family? Oh yeah, that's right, then it would be competing with $100,000-$250,000 luxury sedans in performance but with only a $25k pricetag and rapidly outsell all the other 'fuel efficient' cars on the market. Free market, my ***!

Gas up
 

Got gas today went up 11 cents a gallon in 6 days currently $2.569 for regular Hess. I filled my xB until it was dripping on the ground which will result in a little less MPG reading for this past 3/4 tank.

Toecutter is absolutely right.
 

Toecutter is absolutely right. We could have high fuel economy without much sacrifice. It's not rocket science.

Example: The Toyota Corolla already has a 1.8 liter engine with 41 mpg highway. Toyota could make a "FE" version with the 1.5 liter Scion engine, taller, wide ratio gearing, LRR tires, a belly pan and other aero tweaks. At a non-hybrid price.

But instead, they bring over the Yaris, which has WORSE EPA fuel economy than the manual Corolla. And just TRY to find a manual Corolla on a dealer lot. They don't make enough. Morons.

NOPE won't fit
 

If you looked under the hood of my xB you would see how tall the engine is - I don't think they could fit it in a lower vehicle. The Corolla is for poor people that can't drive a stick - rather a real sports car stick driver wouldn't by a corolla - just my 5 cents worth.

800 ? 800: true);"
 

https://66.70.86.46/test.gaschart?Cou...&Unit=US%20$/G

Gas prices are still up. I am hearing people talking about gas prices all over the place.

Gas prices will always be as
 

Gas prices will always be as high as people allow. And its not the gas stations and distributors that make the money, its the big guys and the government. Gas taxes and sales tax are all % based, prices go up, they get more money. So if the government and the big 3 get paid when prices are high, you can bet your *** they are going to be as high as possible. They will use ANY excuse possible to make them higher, even if it never really effected the industry.

It is no coincidence these
 

It is no coincidence these industries and the government have stalled the electric vehicle and refuse to make any meaningful increases in fuel economy.

But this isn't the whole story. I'm sure some of you here are familiar with peak oil. M. King Hubbert predicted during the 1950s that America's oil production would peak around 1970. He was right, America's oil production peaked in 1972. This had a major influence on the 70s fuel crisis. He also predicted world oil production would peak somewhere between 2000 and 2010. 2005 production is down from 2004, and 2006 seems to be consistent with 2005 as far as production is concerned. He may be right there as well. In which case we would be on a plateau before the peak is reached.

The implications of this could potentially be catastrophic. A 1-2% shortfall in supply is an excuse by industry to nearly double prices, and oil production almost follows a Gaussian bell curve with a decline rate of 2-5% per year being the general estimation of what will follow peak oil. Nearly everything we buy is currently linked to oil: food, cheap plastic crap from China, home heating, production of semicondictors and microprocessors, and yes, our automobiles. Does it have to be that way? No. But sadly, what we do is oil intensive by design. It makes people money. Post peak oil, we may be in for a serious economic depression, a unique scenario in which prices might increase by a factor of 5 or 10, but wages will continue to stagnate and unemployment will increase dramatically. Depending on your degree of pessimism, this may not bode very well for humanity, at least as far as our living standards are concerned.

But we are doing nothing about it, despite the serious implications this problem could pose. We are doing nothing about it, even though we have the technology to.

Why?

If we adopt alternatives prior to peak oil's effects, the oil industry won't be able to maximize profits, and the federal governments won't be able to maximize economic growth, tax revenue, and control. That is my explanation as to why so little is being done, despite the viable, workable soolutions all around us, whether by 200-300 mile range electric cars, aerodynamic cars that get 50+ mpg with no sacrifice, wind turbines which are now cheaper than coal, industrial hemp for plastics and biodiesel, electric rail to replace trucking for shipping, mass transit systems to displace some car use, ect.

All of these measures to decrease oil consumption without harming our living standard? They are cheaper, they take less of your money and transfer it to industry, they make less profit, they generate less tax revenue. So industry and government both have a motivation to make sure they never become reality. Economic growth has to come from somewhere, and it comes from the pockets of your average American. The top 1% doesn't want to compromise it, damned be the consequences, whether oil wars, environmental destruction, or increasing fascism by governments in an effort to maintain control in face of growing civil discontent.

The electric car, for example, about 1/3 the cost to run factoring in batteries over a comparable gas car, and far less profitable. No maintenance, tune ups, oil changes, and those electric motors last 500,000+ miles. The auto industry wouldn't make near as much money if people drove around in cars that never needed powertrain maintenance and lasted 40+ years. The auto industry is 4% of America's GDP. Imagine shrinking that amount to one third. Then imagine doing that to the oil industry, electric utilities industries, defense industry. You get the idea.

Another example of the government and industry trying to stimulate growth occured in the 1940s. America had the world's best mass transit system. Trolleys everywhere, only 1/3 of driving ages americans owned cars. The rest didn't need them and saw no reasion to; the trolleys came every 5 minutes on time, were far cheaper than a car, and transported their passengers faster than the flow of traffic. In cities like St. Louis, LA, Salt Lake city, Columbus, there were trolley stops literally blocks apart. Seeking to stimulate growth, the government, oil industry, and auto industry got together to dismantle them. Industry was sold the mass transit systems by the government, then dismantled them, forcing millions into car ownership without any other viable form of transportation. There were in fact riots in Salt Lake City, Los Angeles, and other cities, because indidivuals did not like the idea of having to have a car to get around. But profit won out over people. Enter the auto boom of the 1950s and a continuous interstate highway boondoggle laden with pork. Before the mass transit system was dismantled, auto use plateued at about 1 car for every 3 people of driving age and 5,000 miles per year. After, auto use shot up, and today we have 1.2 cars for every individual of driving age and each car sees 12,000 miles per year. This was intentional, it made certain people money at the expense of the public.

We don't have the resources to continue this growth forever. Oil is finite. Something will have to be sacrificed. Will it be profits for the guys on top to go, or will it be our lifestyles, our environment, our individual freedoms, and possibly our lives? Will americans eventually have to live like those in Somalia so that a few rich *******s can keep making money, or will our economy shrink in a controlled manner as we trnasition to alternatives while wages and employment is maintained at the expense of profit?

Once we're in a serious crisis, ordinary people won'thave the cash to switch to alternatives. It will be too late. Which future do you want?

There are a lot of wealthy individuals that want to maintain the status quo at all costs, and they are more than willing to stick the rest of us with the consequences when it comes time to pay the piper as they seal themselves off in their gated communities.

The party is almost over. Make your choice now.

another way
 

I ordered 52 Li-Ion cells 2ah to build a 72 cell pack for my S-25 Bike and will be mounting the 1hp motor on it soon. Won't be burning gas in this puppy!

$2.79 in St. Louis, $2.85
 

$2.79 in St. Louis, $2.85 nationwide.

I predict it will hit $3.30 in August of this year, more if there is a major disruption via hurricane, Iran, ect. If that happens, be ready for $4.

Next year regardless, be ready for $4-5/gallon.

5 years from now, be ready for $8/gallon.

Re: $2.79 in St. Louis, $2.85
 

When gas hits $5/gallon I will start on my EV. It will either be the cheapest donor car I can find (metro) or something that can actually hold tons of batteries (old lightweight toyota truck).

Then again, I'd love to have an electric civic hatchback. Maybe I can find a civic VX with a blown motor and make it an EV.

Arrrgg, I just paid $3.13 a
 

Arrrgg, I just paid $3.13 a gallon for supreme tonight, gunna be driving the Hf after this weekend... prices are going up again soon...

Just went up 10c today in
 

Just went up 10c today in Pittsburgh to $2.95.

Bunger, why are you buying supreme?

up
 

I heard a station raised their price twice in one day around here. We need to keep the tanks full to offset the price increases. We all gonna have to add sails to these land boats if this keeps up.

bravo on your reasearch
 

bravo on your reasearch toecutter, well educated.

Meh no matter what the price of gas is, I'll still drive just because I know how to squeeze every last liter/gallon to the very end. And with high prices that's just an excuse for me to squeeze some more!

Quote:Just went up 10c today
 

:( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(

I least i am buying alot less on gas then most people.

crude oild is @ record hight
 

crude oil is @ record hight too. But you guys all ready knew that.

https://66.70.86.46/test.gaschart?Cou...&Unit=US%20$/G

Saw $2.91 on Tuesday, $2.94
 

Saw $2.91 on Tuesday, $2.94 yesterday. $3 for regular before May is now a guarantee.

Re: Just went up 10c today in
 

I've been driving my silver CRX, the B18C in it is at about 11.0:1... and doesn't seem to like anything less than 91 octane. It'll be nice to be pumping regular... $0.20 savings there alone! =)

We're still not seeing
 

We're still not seeing record prices though, adjusting for inflation. I don't doubt that we'll be there one of these days though. ;)

We've already seen them
 

We've already seen them during Katrina. Adjusted for inflation during the peak of the 70s/80 fuel crisis, gas was like $2.90-3.03 adjusted for today's dollars, depending on the source cited, for 1980.

During hurricane Katrina, the average hit $3.06. According to gasbuddy.com, we're now $2.88/gallon.

We're very close.




Why wait for $5 to start an EV? Properly built with a sizable pack to keep discharge low, it will break even with its gas counterpart anywhere from $0.80-1.50/gallon including cost of battery replacement. Adjusted for inflation for 2006 dollars, gas has never been $.80, and very rarely below $1.50. However, keep the battery pack small to save on up front costs, and it might break even more closer to $2.50-3.50/gallon, in extreme cases, $5.00/gallon. Around $1.50-2.00/gallon generally is the normal break even point for those who use flooded batteries, but these examples made no special attention to efficiency or a properly sized battery pack. Making an EV that will save you money is a fine balancing act, but can pay great dividends if successful. Not to mention, a car built from the ground up as an EV would fare far better than a conversion. If commercial EVs would be sold, people would have vehicle operating costs literally 3 or 4 pennies per mile for combined fuel and 'maintenance'(lack thereof).

gas is 2.89 here the
 

gas is 2.89 here the cheapest. I have to drive 3 miles one way to save 20 cents a gallon. My parents and especially my grandma has been bugging me why i'm driving even slower now. My mom doesn't even say anything since gas hit $3. Especially the fact that I pay for my own car, gas and etc.

Hopefully my tank lasts for another week, I can't afford to fuel up now.

Re: We've already seen them
 

I think I use the $5 mark as an excuse. The real reason is that I have enough projects as it is right now. I've had 8 tanks of gas since last October in my car, so I really don't drive too often. Now that the Spring is here (I think... stupid utah snow in April) I'll be riding my bike more and will hopefully be in the N600 a bit for weekend drives.

This gas price situation is
 

This gas price situation is quite unfortunate for me. The more gas prices go up, the less money I have to put into my EV.

The irony just kills me.

war on gas
 

I just heard from a friend that says that if we used 20% less in the USA we would force the price back down to less than $2 in about a week or two. The crude is coming in as fast as they refine it and put out the gasoline - we stop buying as much and the stuff has to go somewhere and ends up in the reserve tanks until they get full then they lower the price to sell more and we WIN! Supply and Demand!