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Matt Timion 04-11-2006 10:32 AM

How would you respond?
 
A guy on honda-tech recently said about a user who wants to make a more fuel efficient car:

Quote:

Uh... I guess I'm not really understanding the point of dumping money into a car so that you can save money. Why not be happy with 40 or so mpg, strip whatever isn't needed (free) and just spend as little money as possible to keep it running good...

Your investment isn't going to pay off unless you're putting like 100 miles on the car every day and plan on keeping it for a LONG time... I could do the math for you but if you sit down for literally half a minute and put some numbers down on paper you'll realize how silly of a goal this is.

All you are going to accomplish is bragging rights about miles per gallon in the end, which is about as trivial as bragging about your download speed.

Just my $0.02
How would you respond?

Compaq888 04-11-2006 10:41 AM

The response would be
 
The response would be different for every person.
From my point of view he is right. Because I drive a nissan and me throwing money at it will only improve mpg very little.

Now if you own an economical car that gets 40mpg and you throw some money at it and now it gets 60mpg then it's a worthwhile investment. Because the gas prices are going up and it will pay off.

Either way you're getting bragging right, but with a gas guzzler you look like an idiot. Which is me.


SVOboy 04-11-2006 10:46 AM

Using less is worth the
 
Using less is worth the cost, :)

mtbiker278 04-11-2006 11:01 AM

mileage is key
 
It's true that it wouldn't be cost effective if you don't drive a lot. However, if you're like a bunch of people on this site who drive 60, 70 miles or more a day, every little bit helps.


GasSavers_DaX 04-11-2006 11:39 AM

I guess it's part right.
 
I guess it's part right. This is why I'm not rushing to buy a SuperMID and why I'm hesitant to do some FE things. I generally stick to the inexpensive things, like a few aero mods, a 5-speed conversion, etc. Some things are a lot more economical for me since I do all of my own work.

The same argument he makes can be made about building a fast car though. Throwing money into a car to make it fast is almost as fun as setting it on fire - I should know. I sunk about $10,000 into my 1992 Civic VX and in the end I blew the motor twice. Yeah, I parted out the car but may have gotten a total of $2,500 back from parts sales. From start (purchasing the car) to finish (blowing the motor a second time) only spanned about 2 years. At least with FE mods there is a net GAIN. Unless you're a sponsored race car driver winning events, there is no net gain (at least legally) to putting money into a car to go fast.

Does this mean I never intend to build a fast car ever again? Certainly not! I thoroughly enjoyed the acceleration of my car, and am intent on building a better and faster one. I am, however, going into it knowing that I will be taking a net LOSS in exchange for some fun.

Sludgy 04-11-2006 12:07 PM

HMMMMMMMM Have we been
 
HMMMMMMMM Have we been invaded by a stooge from Texaco-Chevron?

Bunger 04-11-2006 12:18 PM

Re: How would you respond?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Timion
How would you respond?

Lets do a little math, just to get a basic idea:

Average driver: 12,000 miles a year
Starting MPG: 40
Modified MPG: 60
Average Gas Price: $2.00

Ok... all that being true, you're talking about the difference of $200 a year, as you use 100 less gallons (300 vs 200). But how about this... lets say you have a 10 useable gallon tank, which means you'll have to stop to fill up 10 more times that year. Now, I'm gunna take a little leap here, but I'm going to say that when you stop for gas, you're going to probably spend at least $5 to do so... this is time, extra wear on brakes, possibility you're gunna get some nachos, etc. that adds another $50 to the cost easily.

So... REAL world difference, easily $250 a year... lets say we do that for 10 years... $2500... and if we had invested that money in some overseas mutual funds, I would expect to see around $6500 by the end of those 10 years. =)

kickflipjr 04-11-2006 01:32 PM

The best thing to do is
 
The best thing to do is learning to drive efficiently and drive less.

As for mods, I would not recomend spending hundreds of dollars to gain 1-2 mpg.

Just keeping the car maintained is important.

You can pickup used insights on ebay for under $10,000. So maybee they should by that insted on modding up the car.

It all comes down to the miles to $$$ ratio. Bunger already set up the math problem (so i don't need to explain).

krousdb 04-11-2006 02:03 PM

Re: How would you respond?
 
Quote:

All you are going to accomplish is bragging rights about miles per gallon in the end, which is about as trivial as bragging about your download speed.
Or as trivial as bragging about your trap speed in the 1/4 mile, or your 0-60 time.

Everyone has a different definition of performance. Mine is different than most. My "hobby" requires little or no investment and will always have some return on investment. Off hand I can't think of any other hobby that you could say the same thing about.

And one more thing to consider. In the event that gas becomes extremely expensive or downright impossible to buy (gas lines during the 70's oil embargo), I will be much better prepared than most others to deal with the situation. I also feel good I am trying to do my part to reduce our country's dependance on foriegn oil.
Just my .02

The Toecutter 04-11-2006 06:12 PM

Some want to show what can
 
Some want to show what can be done with modern off the shelf technology. They might want others to understand that the auto industry could be making cars that get high fuel efficiency that require no loss in performance, safety, size, or utility, and perhaps insignificant if any additional cost.

Take aeromods for instance. Most cars being sold now days still lack a bellypan, something the automakers could add to a car for well under $20, which would improve fuel economy an entire 1-2 mpg with absolutely no loss in performance or safety.

Most of the expense in these modifications are incurred not because the components are expensive for a manufacturer to place into a car, but because they aren't placed into the car from the start during a mass production run and it is then left to the hobbyist to purchase, build, and/or install the parts themselves. They already paid beforehand for what the manufacturer placed into their car, when the manufacturer could just as easily swap out parts to improve the fuel economy.

There are individuals on this site who have modified their cars to see 30-40% more fuel economy than their car achieved stock, often with improved acceleration performance and increased reliability. Why isn't the auto industry doing that?

thisisntjared 04-11-2006 06:35 PM

i wouldnt respond to that
 
i wouldnt respond to that thread because **to a degree** he is right.

buying cameras and lcd screens to replace the mirrors seems a bit unreasonable as well as the superMID, even though it is quite a potent indirect investment.

other mods, such as the underbody tray, do have an associated cost, but in the long run definitely are useful in saving gas and reducing white noise, as well as increasing your mph at the end of the 1/4 mile.

some people are in this for bragging rights, some for the eco system, and some because they are poor. the reseason(s) for modifying for fuel economy dictate which mods are made.

SVOboy 04-11-2006 06:37 PM

Waiter, could you please
 
Waiter, could you please reseason this steak, it's a bit bland!

Go vegetarian power!

Bunger 04-11-2006 08:24 PM

Re: Waiter, could you please
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SVOboy
Go vegetarian power!

Are you vegetarian SVO?

Bunger 04-11-2006 08:31 PM

Re: Some want to show what can
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Toecutter
Most cars being sold now days still lack a bellypan, something the automakers could add to a car for well under $20, which would improve fuel economy an entire 1-2 mpg with absolutely no loss in performance or safety.

Ya, I never understood that... they are on some higher performance vehicles and some luxury cars, but there isn't any real reason they shouldn't be on all vehicles. As you pointed out, they will reduce fuel consumption, decrease road and wind noise, and improve high speed stability. They only downside I could see is the added time (thus cost) when changing oil and doing other maint that requires the removale of the pan.

I've gotta wonder where these ideas get shot down inside GM / Ford / Honda... I can't believe that the engineers would be so shortsighted as to overlook a belly pan.

Matt Timion 04-11-2006 08:58 PM

Re: i wouldnt respond to that
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by thisisntjared
i wouldnt respond to that thread because **to a degree** he is right.

buying cameras and lcd screens to replace the mirrors seems a bit unreasonable as well as the superMID, even though it is quite a potent indirect investment.

other mods, such as the underbody tray, do have an associated cost, but in the long run definitely are useful in saving gas and reducing white noise, as well as increasing your mph at the end of the 1/4 mile.

some people are in this for bragging rights, some for the eco system, and some because they are poor. the reseason(s) for modifying for fuel economy dictate which mods are made.

Viewed from a cost POV, most modifications won't pay for themselves. Hell, even LRR tires MIGHT not pay for themselves considering they usually don't last as long as regular tires. Of course modifications like lighter rims, computers, new engines, transmissions, etc. etc. won't probably ever pay for themselves.

Just for a little perspective, here is what I've purchased for my car:

This is a list of strictly MPG related stuff:

new engine - $550 total ($200 shipping)
new transmission - $110 total ($60 shipping)
new ECU - $25
o2 sensor - $25
cat/downpipe - $20
VX rims/tires - $250 total
New throwout bearing - $50
new timing belt - $30
new water pump - $40


then there are the costs of fixing up my car, including 3 new doors, a fender, a hood, new seats (front and back), new molding, new weather stripping (all the way around - not cheap), new window regulators (just arrived today!), new taillights, and of course replacing the head gasket last year which cost about a third of the price of the car. I also purchased paint, loads of primer, bondo, air tools, a HLVP paint gun, etc.

I've spent the value of this car at least twice over. I will never get that money back. I also do it because I love it. The money pit that is my car is MY CAR. I've learned a lot and I'm working towards a goal.

In the end racing for fuel economy is no different than racing for horse power. It's all a race towards a goal. There is no realistic ROI, but at least we have a better shot of a ROI than the guys who just bought the new Honda Civic Hybrid instead of the civic LX.

I guess it's all about perspective in this case.

For us it's a hobby, one which we love. i don't think you should ever expect to make money on your hobby.

Compaq888 04-11-2006 08:58 PM

the new civic does feature a
 
the new civic does feature a rear belly deffuser. You don't really have to block the oil pan to put some aero mods in the front. I didn't.

molecule 04-11-2006 09:12 PM

i'd tell him he is a
 
i'd tell him he is a complete tard *** for not spending his entire income on researching ways to better the worlds environmental crisis...

hi (insert wave here)

people who dont believe in change for the better, i will always look down on...
that kid thinks money is worth more than anything...his first mistake
obviously he is young...etc
the whole 'spend' attitude...
it comes down to how much we lazy americans are going to allow a government to decide what economy means...
pay your taxes or you are going to jail...even if you dont believe in your governments direction or actions
hey...i just live here...is it illegal to watch too...???
to watch them ride off with your pride...fooling you into believing that these dollar bills which came from trees are worth more than the ground you stand on....because it was processed...and looks like something you can believe in...or something...???
try turning off your tv for a couple years...it will be the best thing you ever do in your life

thats what i would tell him
link me to the thread so i can...
thanx

oh i forgot...the government already 'owns' every inch of land from sea to shining sea...
and they clearly know whats best for it...
silly me

wait until they try and shut off the solar system
https://www.weatherwars.info/index.php?news_id=6&start=0&category_id=10&parent_ id=0&arcyear=&arcmonth=
https://www.weatherwars.info/soho.htm

you know it never ceases to amaze what you are and aren't willing to believe...

philmcneal 04-12-2006 12:04 AM

Re: i'd tell him he is a
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by eigerzoom
i'd tell him he is a complete tard *** for not spending his entire income on researching ways to better the worlds environmental crisis...

hi (insert wave here)

people who dont believe in change for the better, i will always look down on...
that kid thinks money is worth more than anything...his first mistake
obviously he is young...etc
the whole 'spend' attitude...
it comes down to how much we lazy americans are going to allow a government to decide what economy means...
pay your taxes or you are going to jail...even if you dont believe in your governments direction or actions
hey...i just live here...is it illegal to watch too...???
to watch them ride off with your pride...fooling you into believing that these dollar bills which came from trees are worth more than the ground you stand on....because it was processed...and looks like something you can believe in...or something...???
try turning off your tv for a couple years...it will be the best thing you ever do in your life

thats what i would tell him
link me to the thread so i can...
thanx

oh i forgot...the government already 'owns' every inch of land from sea to shining sea...
and they clearly know whats best for it...
silly me

wait until they try and shut off the solar system
https://www.weatherwars.info/index.php?news_id=6&start=0&category_id=10&parent_ id=0&arcyear=&arcmonth=
https://www.weatherwars.info/soho.htm

you know it never ceases to amaze what you are and aren't willing to believe...

(clap)(clAP)(CLAP)

Bleh keep it short, hypermiling is a number you cannot BUY EVER, all skill ;)

molecule 04-12-2006 12:32 AM

i cant wait to buy a 90mpg
 
i cant wait to buy a 90mpg engine in a junkyard for $750
i guess thats relativity for ya

SVOboy 04-12-2006 03:19 PM

Quote:Are you vegetarian
 
Quote:

Are you vegetarian SVO?
Yessir, I am!

Bunger 04-12-2006 09:05 PM

Re: Quote:Are you vegetarian
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SVOboy
Quote:

Are you vegetarian SVO?
Yessir, I am!

Cool, as am I. =)

SVOboy 04-13-2006 02:45 AM

Ever thought of going vegan?
 
Ever thought of going vegan? I might once I get to dartmouth since the options will be abundant. I don't think I could make the change right now.

Bunger 04-13-2006 03:41 AM

Re: Ever thought of going vegan?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SVOboy
Ever thought of going vegan?

I was vegan for about 3 years. I've been a vegetarian for almost 10 years now, and I would still be vegan, but I got sick (unrelated) and I couldn't afford the strict diet. I guess now that I've been healthy for a few years, there is no reason I shouldn't become vegan again. Being vegan is rather hard sometimes... pizza is pretty damn good.

GasSavers_DaX 04-13-2006 04:51 AM

I could never do it guys. I
 
I could never do it guys.

I try to keep my freezer stocked with venison though, as it's an extremely lean meat and much better for you than beef.

chesspirate 04-13-2006 06:15 AM

Well... Y'know the summer
 
Well... Y'know the summer gas crunch? When demand supposedly rises enough to increase fuel costs. What is the actual Percentage of increased demand? 5%, 10%, or 15%?

Hmmm, wiith almost free mods to my truck at one point (slight aero's with duct tape, tire pressure, driving habits) i had gone from averaging 18mpg to a best of 21 not trying to AVERAGING 22-23 with a best of 24.5...

So if we take the average of the first 'average' (sounds funny) you get a number just under 20 so i'll say 20. And the next number could easily be just 22. I'm trying to be totally fair, instead of saying that i went from 18 to 24.5 even though i guess i could, but anyway.

Getting 2mpg better for me from 20 to 22 is a 10% gain! And that was with barely any physical modifications, i had already been running an MSD 6a and an open element K&N and an easier breathing muffler before i started so those don't count.

Honestly i believe the best all around 'mod' is to drive easier in the city and slower on the freeway. Simple. Better mileage, easier on the car, and safer.

But back to the 'costs' of modding. It is very near sighted to look at it the way the traitor did. oops, did i wright that. I'm in no position to purchase another vehicle so i do what i can with what i have. And if by doing next to nothing i can improve 10% then if we could spread the word, we're talking about a lot less gas everyone uses, IF you can get the word out, and if A LOT of people make some simple changes, we could see fuel demand slow or drop and possibly fuel costs drop.

Of course, the above is a very long term scenario but it is possible. We saw the reverse at the begginning of the SUV craze, more BIG vehicles with horrible mileage and less anything better in the mpg category, heck a full size sedan would have been a huge upgrade in most cases, same goes for a van or wagon.

For me, it's kinda a game, impresses others sometimes (okay rarely) but if i can get someone else to think about out and so forth and so on, not only are we doing something good for the enviornment, we might also help everyone out in the pocketbook as well.


Oh yeah, workers on the Sun???

molecule 04-13-2006 07:20 AM

workers NEAR the sun
 
workers NEAR the sun

any idea how big that thing would have to be to show up like that...?

thisisntjared 04-13-2006 07:36 AM

Re: Well... Y'know the summer
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DaX
I could never do it guys.

I try to keep my freezer stocked with venison though, as it's an extremely lean meat and much better for you than beef.

im with you. venison rocks.

i thought about becoming a vegitarian because i am a bit of a health nut, but i decided that beef tenderloin once a month is just too hard to give up. what else would i drink my reds with??

i could NEVER be vegan. sushi/sashimi is just too amazing!
Quote:

Originally Posted by chesspirate
Honestly i believe the best all around 'mod' is to drive easier in the city and slower on the freeway. Simple. Better mileage, easier on the car, and safer.

and boring :p. seriously though, there are some things that can definitely be contested in those statements. there is no way going slower on the freeway is safer, and neither is going faster, the safest is just going with the flow of traffic, while remaining attentive. also whether its 'easier' on the car or not depends on the car. i know there are plenty others out there, but i speak from experience when i say that, in the long term and short, hondas feel no difference between light driving and moderate driving.
Quote:

Originally Posted by chesspirate
For me, it's kinda a game, impresses others sometimes (okay rarely) but if i can get someone else to think about out and so forth and so on, not only are we doing something good for the enviornment, we might also help everyone out in the pocketbook as well.

people are impressed when i tell them ive gotten over 38mpg on my last 4 tanks and they are jelous.

Matt Timion 04-13-2006 07:41 AM

Re: Well... Y'know the summer
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by thisisntjared
i could NEVER be vegan. sushi/sashimi is just too amazing!

Can I hear an Amen?

Quote:

Originally Posted by thisisntjared
there is no way going slower on the freeway is safer, and neither is going faster, the safest is just going with the flow of traffic, while remaining attentive.

I usually just go the speed limit and stay to the right side of the freeway. I'm in no hurry to get anywhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thisisntjared
people are impressed when i tell them ive gotten over 38mpg on my last 4 tanks and they are jelous.

I've begun posting my MPG image on other forums I go to in my signature. It's my way of bragging, even if I only get 35mpg.

kickflipjr 04-13-2006 07:50 AM

Quote:I've begun posting my
 
Quote:

I've begun posting my MPG image on other forums I go to in my signature. It's my way of bragging, even if I only get 35mpg.
Good idea. Plus, it is free advertising for your site :)

thisisntjared 04-13-2006 08:08 AM

Re: Well... Y'know the summer
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Timion
I usually just go the speed limit and stay to the right side of the freeway. I'm in no hurry to get anywhere.

thats koshur, but going under can definitely be very hazardous if traffic begins to get backed up(because of the slow driver). this depends a lot on the population density of the area too. my point was that 'slower' or 'faster' is a false dichotomy. there is a 'moderate' in there too :)

SVOboy 04-13-2006 06:54 PM

Let me just say...I do not
 
Let me just say...I do not eat fish. I am a vegetarian. I am not a pescatarian, if I ate fish, that is what I would be. So, vegan is more about animal products and less about animals.

kickflipjr 04-13-2006 07:07 PM

Quote:some people are in
 
Quote:

some people are in this for bragging rights, some for the eco system, and some because they are poor. the reseason(s) for modifying for fuel economy dictate which mods are made.
Reasons for me.

1)Saving $$$
2)Bragging Rights
3)Save the planet and all the eco stuff


philmcneal 04-14-2006 12:30 AM

lol right on about the
 
lol right on about the sushi, although i'm jealous on the veggies guys because they don't get the dieseases associated with meat ;( I tried pure veggie stuff once, some stuff is good but its tough to find the good stuff that satisfies a meat eater.

Also I find people can't drive economically because one they don't know how. I realize its much harder for a normal person than people like us equipped with the knowledge and facts. Try getting some random guy to drive efficently and you'll see what I mean, unless that person is actually very serious (I haven't found one person in real life that went, "Wow you save gas? ME TOO!" Instead I get the, "LOL" go figures.)

I'd brag about my mileage but imo 35 mpg is not good enough for my books.. espically when I've been getting that for the past 2 years or so ;(

Indeed old habits are hard to break,

diamondlarry 04-14-2006 04:37 AM

Quote:I'd brag about my
 
Quote:

I'd brag about my mileage but imo 35 mpg is not good enough for my books.. espically when I've been getting that for the past 2 years or so ;(
I think I would brag about 35 mpg. Earlier this week my wife told me that one of the people where she works bought a new(2006) car. They said, "Your husband would love this car, it gets 37 mpg on the highway." She said that they said it as though it was some totally astronomical figure. To the non-FE minded person, 35 is good so I would brag away.

SVOboy 04-14-2006 07:47 AM

I was talking to my friend
 
I was talking to my friend the other day, and she asked me what my mpg was on the crx, so I said lifetime, 35, and she was like, the escape hybrid (ford suv hybrid) gets 37.

Damnnation!

Matt Timion 04-14-2006 07:55 AM

Re: I was talking to my friend
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SVOboy
I was talking to my friend the other day, and she asked me what my mpg was on the crx, so I said lifetime, 35, and she was like, the escape hybrid (ford suv hybrid) gets 37.

Damnnation!

Is that using the old EPA convention? If so, it's way over rated.

SVOboy 04-14-2006 08:18 AM

That's using the what the
 
That's using the what the car actually gets in regular driving convention, ;)

GasSavers_Ryland 04-15-2006 10:03 PM

I still don't get how making
 
I still don't get how making your car go faster saves you money, or pays for it's self, what is the advantage of having a car that goes faster the the leagle speed limit? for trips around town I've been useing my Honda CB100, as best as I can figure it's getting around 100mpg, tops out at around 60mph with me on it, it's both peppy, and gets ok mileage, and I don't need to worry about speeding tickets.

I do it for the chalange, and to save money, I would rather invest my money not burn it, burning money is not a chalange, it doesn't teach me anything, it doesn't use any imagination, I am lazy, I like the idea of getting something out of almost nothing, of pushing the peek efficentcy, of taking a car, and making it go as far as possible on as little as possible, for as many years as possible.

My old car I had my mileage drop for a few tanks from 42.5 to 38mpg, a friend pointed out that 38mpg "is still great mileage" I pointed out that in 400 mile trip I'm loosing a gallon of fuel, gone, lost, no gain, fill a milk jug with gas, $2.65 or whatever it costs, and toss it out the window, that is the 4mpg drop in a 400 mile trip.

If I wan the thrill of going fast, I'll go flying, or hop on a motorcycle, or a tobogan, or a bicycle, or zip line, I understand that there is a thrill of spending $10,000 on a car just so it will go fast, but how is it going to pay for it's self?

philmcneal 04-16-2006 02:16 AM

Re: I was talking to my friend
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SVOboy
I was talking to my friend the other day, and she asked me what my mpg was on the crx, so I said lifetime, 35, and she was like, the escape hybrid (ford suv hybrid) gets 37.

Damnnation!

on the cleanmpg forums, garyg can easily get 60 mpg in his ford hybrid suv now... and its a FREAKING SUV!!!

yup all city, hwy is easy to get high mileage. City is where the real's fun is at.

krousdb 04-16-2006 02:58 AM

Re: I was talking to my friend
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by philmcneal
on the cleanmpg forums, garyg can easily get 60 mpg in his ford hybrid suv now... and its a FREAKING SUV!!!

yup all city, hwy is easy to get high mileage. City is where the real's fun is at.

Yes, GaryG does get high segments in the city. The FEH has HSD which would explain high city mileage. I havent heard what he gets on the highway however. At some point the aero drag will kick in and bring those numbers down into the 30's. With drafting maybe 40's. I wonder what the CD on the FEH is?


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