The lower the rpm and the higher the gear the less fuel wasted. Get into 5th asap. Even with civic I doubt I'll get the scangauge. I'd rather waste $180 on some LRR tires.

NOTE FROM BEN: I moved this from another thread and made the title, this discussion wasn't prompted by compaq but was clogging another thread, though it's important so it has its own now.

Text moved back to the proper thread...

Not to get off topic, but instant feedback is THE most important tool if you are serious about efficiency. Without it there is no way for an individual to answer questions like this. Getting LRR tires vs. properly inflating the set that you have would be a waste vs. getting a ScanGauge or equivalent (like a MID).

I agree completely. One has to determine whether he she wants to spend 180 dollars to be lazy and get 3% or spend 180 dollars, try, and get 20%, for me the choice is obvious.

I believe jangeo and darin have done some serious testing on the hill matter and both decided that the highest gear still wins. I feel the same way based on what I've noticed during the small amount of hill driving I've done. Even with little torque and being at 1200 rpms I've not had to downshift, and I can scoot along just fine at 1000 rpms. Hell, at 30 mph I'd practically have to be in 2nd gear to gear to get up to 2500 rpms, :p, and then my throttle is open more, anyway.

I know about tires. In fact I used to run 55psi in my last car.
The only reason I'm not running high psi in my civic is because the rear tires need replacing. Once they are replaced I will bump up the psi.

I also know about bump starting, different coasting methods, aero mods and etc. Once I get the clutch thing right then I'll start to focus on fuel economy.

There are plenty of Honda owners here who report their findings, I already know what improves fuel economy and what doesn't. Getting better fuel economy is reading fuel economy websites and experimenting with your own car.

In a manner of speaking, yes. And the key to making experimentation meaningful is results. You can wait for a tank to burn down to get one datum, or you can keep track of each individual trip to get data day after day after day, improving much more quickly as you see what works with your car and what doesn't. It's not even debatable IMO.

Knowing the theory is only half of it. Feedback is the only thing that will tell you if you are applying it properly.

I totally agree with you, brick. Reading GS can't tell me exactly how much I should feather the gas pedal to get that extra 3mpg during acceleration, nor can it inform me about how much EOC I'm doing relative to distance traveled.

I have more than a year of feedback. I started with a 24mpg car and the last tank before I sold it was a 31mpg tank. Mixed driving for both figures.

With this manual now I don't really need a scangauge because most of the time the highest gear and the lowest rpm will give me the best mpg. The only use for it would be to see how much of a difference the mods would be. Or to see which version of the aero mod works better than the other.

Metro, Dan, nor Bajoos haven't even does this.
So the only reason to buy it is if you hit the max of your car and to see if you modify your aero mods if it improves fuel economy.

See, but you're wrong.

I don't not what you're saying about dan, darin, and basjoos. Basjoos is the only one getting great mileage without one. Zpiloto took a car almost as sucky as yours and gets 40mpg with it, because he has a scangauge, :p

I have more data in a two weeks of driving from my mid than you will in two years with tank reciepts, and I still think I'm missing a lot that can be done.

One day dart vader will throw you down a whole and you'll realize that your overconfidence did indeed lead to your downfall.

Zpiloto has a car with a 2.0 engine. I had 2.4
He also screwed with his transmission, I didn't. Picking up another 3-5mpg was too much risk for the transmission.

Yeah, but guess what, his EPA estimates are lower than yours, so what're you complaining about?

Just get the scangauge already!

Word to your mutha.

The scanguage actually, by giving you the results in real time, lets you see things you may have never realized. I found that I rest my foot on the gas pedal at times (instead of 400mpg + coasting it was like 125), forget to go to neutral on the coast (same kind of info), it even reminds me to find the best line in highway traffic to see which lane is drafting better with REAL results. If I had picked the default slow lane, I would have had to brake, if I had picked the fast lane I would have been doing 70mph +. The other 2 lanes I found the data was the best indicator of where to be.

I am still breaking in the Yaris and the guage has been a godsend.

No way a human checklists catches all these nuances on my repetitive 120 mile round trip commute. Without out it I would just be a zombie at times in the car following the leader.

One thing to add, I have read and seen some people going for LED's for certain ranges coming off the scanguage almost to tag them like Pavlov's dog. Humans react very well to Ambient devices that give them 1 data point in a range to react to. IE (Red light on phone you have voicemail) From the scanguage if out of spec limit for mpg red light. Keep the red light off, much like the hybrid owners are doing with the ICE indicator.

Okay
 

Here's the deal.

A Scangauge is going to help you more than LRR tires. Why? It affects HOW you drive. Driving habits account for a larger percentage of your fuel economy gains than any other mod.

Any

other

mod.

A scangauge will pay for itself faster than LRR tires will. LRR tires will also wear out faster than a scangauge will.

Making a blanket statement that you don't need a scangauge because you already know everything that needs to be done is also silly. If you already know everything then I don't know why you post here. We're a group of people searching and experimenting. We're not a group of know-it-alls.

I agree with what SVOBoys said about getting more information in 2 weeks with instrumentation than in a year with just receipts.

No amount of knowledge is going to get your better fuel economy. Knowledge is only part of the equation. When you figure out how to implement the knowledge, then you will be king. The only way to properly hone your skills is to get instantaneous feedback to know when you're doing something wrong.

I don't get tires just for fun. I need a new pair in a couple of months.

One of the reasons I don't need a scangauge is because some of you have it and share the data.

I post because I have data too. Just not driving habits data, only mods that I install.

I give up.... Again.

That which is measured, improves.

It works in exercise, tasking, process, time management and almost every other area of life and it works with MPG/FE too.

+1

Well I don't know about screwed, it started to complain I stopped fishing and in 2 weeks it's back to normal so go figure. Instrumentation is the single most important function for forming FE driving habits. Some of the things that you can do to increase FE are not even noticable unless you have feed back. I look at it this way I'm over 60% over EPA and 40% of that probobaly driving techniques which with out instrumentation is really a tough nut to crack. Don't step over a dollar to pick up a nickel if you truley want to bust the FE open.

What color is your Civic Compaq?

That's an excellent point, and a true one. The next question becomes "Am I measuring the right thing? Is there a discrepancy between my metric and the overall goal?"

For example, if you run 5000m and choose (for some stupid reason) to get better at it by sprinting, your sprint time will improve. When it comes time for race day and you run a worse 5000m than before because you gained muscle to help with the sprints, you might cry out "Why? But I was lowering my time/distance figure! I don't understand why I can be faster and yet slower!"

Another example might be sales. Say that you decide that you are making $200/day, and you do that by seeing 10 clients. You figure that if you can slot 15 clients into a single day, you can make $300/day. Instead of working more hours, you decide to rush through your presentation. The end result is that you cram more people in, but none of them want to buy from you because they feel like you are pushy, and you haven't answered their questions because they can't get a word in edgeways.

Instantaneous FE metering is a bit different in that respect, but there are still artifacts associated with improving your FE at any given point in time when your goal is to lower fuel consumption over the distances you need to travel. On balance though, there is no faster learning that will take place as with instantaneous feedback.

I don't understand how that relates to the thread or anything to do with fuel economy.

Here is my strategy.
Accelarate slow. Get into 5th asap. Do some aero mods, overinflate tires, drive behind trucks on the freeways and streets because they accelarate slow and they drive slower than cars most of the time.

Once I get the hang of the cluch I'll start tinkering with coasting, bumpstartig and etc. I still stall the car.

What color is the civic? Too bad you didn't get a hatch, that means you're already missing the possibility of the best color availiable on the crappy EK (96-00)

wow

I bet it's some ugly color like EBP, eww.

OK, should I start another thread to find out what color it is?

He should've introduced the new car to us but I guess it's top secret.

Compaq, would you at least consider getting a vacuum gauge? If you're hung up on aesthetics you can even stick it in one of those A-pillar pod thingys (to each his own). It's cheap, it won't record trip mileage, but it will help you to manage your right foot. I'm telling you, you have no idea how much a subtle variation in pedal pressure makes until you have a device that shows you the effects in real time.

Now the question, "What good does a vacuum gauge do if it doesn't tell me my MPG?" Well, lots. Manifold vacuum is directly related to instantaneous MPG. Greater vacuum = less air flow into the engine = less fuel burned at that particular moment. This gives you a numerical benchmark for how hard you are accelerating as opposed to the "posterior accelerometer" method, which is notoriously imprecise. In other words, you develop a target number to stay below. It helps on the highway, too. Let's say you're just cruising along at 60mph. It's really easy to apply more pressure to the throttle than necessary, thus burning more fuel than you need to. Call it the "quiet killer" of FE. With a vacuum gauge (or ScanGauge or MID or whatever) you can make a game out of seeing how low you can get that needle and still maintain your target speed.

Use it well and your FE will improve quite dramatically. Vacuum gauges go for, what, $20?

That and you can get one with boost and get a fake intercooler CAI and pretend like your car is something fast.

I don't have a scan gauge tool, for largely the problem of cost. However I do have a vacume gauge and I can say it is pretty amazing how little difference their can be in the "feel" at the pedal and the vacume on the gauge. I'd like to get something going for measuring more directly, but for the time being, the vacume gauge is a inexpensive alternate. You can get them pretty inexpensively, through Harbor Freight and if you watch their sale's, periodically they sell them for a really inexpensive price. Good alternative, IMO.

You know I'm not even going to deal with this color BS. I tried to make a fun thread of what color it is and it got deleted. Now If I post pics of mods it will be off the car so nobody will know the color of the car.

OK, I have to chime-in here.
 

I vote for instrumentation. I used to think that getting the car in top gear and mashing the go-pedal was the best way, but tests have shown, "not the case". Frankly, the ScanGauge changed my FE life.

Instead of feathering the gas pedal in town from a standing start, I pick a TPS number between 20-30% and hold it there until I get up to speed, then back off the gas or coast. This seems to be the best compromise of not ticking people off in traffic, and FE on acceleration. On super-hot days, the AI temp lets me know how much road I need to merge since the power is way down. In fact, I hide the ScanGauge on rental cars I test, so I don't skew the results by watching the figures. If you're looking to improve your economy, Matt has a great point -- change the driver, not the car. You have to know what your engine is doing to change your habits.

Anyways, if you're looking for the "custom tooner" look, the ScanGauge 2 is a flush-mount design.

I'm not being mean C-888, but I can honestly tell that you don't/can't drive efficiently -- nothing has changed. One summer I practically lived in SoCal and the best gas mileage I got was when the car was parked and racked up parking tickets. Also, it's too tempting to race. City driving and a high-density highway situation isn't going to yield stellar results.

They say in racing that the driver who keeps his wheels the straightest wins. Similarly, the driver who uses his engine less wins. If you really want the help, we need an official introduction of the car -- otherwise it's going to be the same ol' "you say, they say".

RH77

you'll get your introduction.

We'll just have to give himself a chance to prove otherwise. (Not counting the first "learning" tank, of course. :p )

Don't count the first 4-5 tanks. I just can't get the hang of the clutch. I just hope this first tank is at least 400 miles. Which should be 33.6mpg or higher.

You'll be alright after a few hundred miles. This is OT but...

The first time I tried to learn stick was with my mother 'teaching' me. She thought it would be a good idea for me to get in, back down a hill in our driveway, and try to start up that hill. Long story short I smoked the clutch and said "F-this." After that they just turned me lose to drive back and forth to school and that's how I got the hang of it. Practice, practice, practice. First strive to keep the car moving in the right direction, then strive to do that and be smooth as well. Then get a ScanGauge and strive to keep the car going in one directon smoothly without burning more fuel than is absolutely necessary :D .

Oh, and one tip for learning to start smoothly: in an empty, flat parking lot, practice getting the car to move in 1st gear without touching the throttle. You will stall the first few times, then you'll start to get a really good feel for where the clutch engagement point is and what your left foot should be doing. Then you can start adding a little throttle for quicker but still smooth take-offs.

Actually I have no problems taking off without touching the throttle. I did practice in the parking lot. The problem is trying to find that perfect balance with the gas and the clutch.

Taking off without the throttle is such a pain, my gearing doesn't like it, :), anyway though, it's good to find where you pedal is, which makes me think I should adjust my pedal but whatevs.