E10 and the coming of winter blended gas
 

So in areas that in the last 6 months have gone to e10, will the winter blend be even worse?

https://www.ksgrains.com/corn/E103.gif I am not a fan of this sticker.

If I'm not mistaken, this IS the new winter blend, now that MTBE is gone -- so probably no change in MPG/performance.

RH77

This was also my understanding.

Good to know, guess we get to wait and see.

Cold Factors
 

Of course, there are other cold factors to consider (with solutions).

Problem: Cold Starts lead to longer Open Loop conditions
Solution: Engine Block Heater

Problem: Vehicle oils become thicker as the temperture drops
Solution: Transmission fluid is often run through the radiator, so an EBH would heat up the rad. For the engine oil, the EBH is a bit more indirect, but seems to keep things warmer than nothing at all.

Problem: Some cars like hot intake air to lean-out the mix for better FE
Solution: HAI, and modified aerodyamic additions to keep the cold out of the engine bay or hot air source. Common treatments - grille block, sealing the hood, and/or a diverter/undertray.

Problem: Tire pressure drops with temperature
Solution: Check it more often.

Problem: Adverse road conditions: Snow/Ice/Rain
Solution: Time. I got nothing for this one, really. The extra friction to push away the precip. reduces FE. Decent tires could help.

Am I forgetting anything?

RH77

Are there additives that would offset the e10? I am not a big fan of them on top of regular unleaded but if it was to get back a loss, it may not be so bad.

Oh, the harshness of winter driving.

We had a couple of cool days and nights here and I already see the cold temp indicator staying on TOO LONG - gonna wrap more of my exhost with aluminum foil to get the cat warmer - maybe I should think about enclosing the engine in insulation too!

Hey maybe they will figure out that the E10 doesn't work well in cold climates and get rid of it for the winter . . . wouldn't that be cool!

Not a chance since ethanol is the magic bullet that will save us from our addiction to foreign oil.:rolleyes:

Precisely DL.

As far as additives go, I don't think there's anything that would convert the ethanol into a more efficiently-combusting material (I should say antyhing inexpensive). Aside from buying it in bulk, separating it somehow through refining, distilling or every else I forgot from Organic Chemistry, then I'm at a loss.

Since MTBE is a cancer-causing agent, I would definitely give up some conveniences to not use it. The whole ethanol debate could go on for decades -- I prefer Bio-Diesel, but limited access to it currently in the area, and no Diesel engine :rolleyes: kinda rules that out - for now ;)

RH77

Cool it until the alcohol freezes then filter it out.

Can someone explain to me the purpose of the winter blend?:confused:

It is a more volatile mixture that vaporizes more easily in cold weather and ignites easier at a lower temperature to make starting easier. Ethanol is NOT easy to vaporize in cold weather so it should be an interesting winter.

What about emissions? I understand that there is a 5% decrease in FE and a pretty good reduction in the GHG except NOx with is increased by 3-5%. But if it's so good for the environment why don't they use it year round?

Too volatile for the summer temperatures, that's the point, it's the winter blend for colder temperatures.

There is at least a perception that e10 gives you negative hit in MPG but costs the same a straight unleaded.

The epa rating on e85 vehicles clearly shows the hit there.

The problem is, when saving gas, EVERY PERCENTAGE COUNTS. People install grille blocks for 1%, LRR tires for 3%, HAI for 2%, for example, etc. If you start adding up the small stuff, that's where you start saving fuel. If you engine-off coast for 1/10 of a mile, it's perhaps a small amount of fuel saved. Do it 100 times, and you've saved a significant amount

It's the "Long Tail" effect. I-tunes sells more of the obscure one song downloads per month than they do the most popular 1000's-per-month. Picture a graph with the most popular downloads at the left, then decreasing to the right with the single-items. It produces a big chunk leftward curving down to a "long short tail". Collect all of those little-interest items, and it beats out the top sellers.

That's why we see it as a problem.

RH77

True, but you can't dispute the power of the EBH -- it's proven. A warm squirt at first, yes, but if you cycle the fluid through an already-warm radiator, warm up is quicker. (and yes, it's for an automatic in this instance).

RH77

Not realy a friend of mine has a Tahoe and said his mileage drops 20% when he runs E85. Around here E85 is only $.40 less than regular. So unless regular drops below $2.00 it is not worth it.

I'm curious to know how ANYONE can run E85 in a gasoline designed vehicle. E85 is 85% ethanol, and will definately damage your vehicle if it isn't designed to run it.

E85 should only be used in flex-fuel vehicles, or vehicles designed for ethanol.

At least some version of the tahoe has been flex fuel since 2002

Chevrolet Tahoe 1500 2WD
8 cyl, 5.3 L, Auto(4), FLEX-FUEL, Gasoline or E85

Gas 14 18 $2456 11.7

E85 10 14 $3313 9.7

This is interesting to me, and it's the first I've read it. For some reason it just seems that E85 wouldn't work in an engine designed for gasoline.

then again, I've been wrong about tons of stuff before :P

https://www.carbibles.com/fuel_engine_bible.html

Scroll down toward the bottom.

Well, you've certainly ruined your catalytic converter, and the alcoholic nature of E85 will start to eat away at critical engine components. I bet $10 that your check-engine light is on (?). The O2 sensors are probably fouled, the oil will become more acidic and breakdown sooner. That poor 4-banger is going to blow!

When I rented a car in North Dakota recently, I had to sign a waiver that if I fueled the vehicle with E85, then I would be responsible for the extensive damage to the engine.

Speaking of cats, to answer your question, I'm concerned about emissions and dependence on foreign oil instead of saving the total amount of fluid in the tank. Frankly, I don't look at gas prices - my motivations for saving gas goes farn beyond the almighty dollar. I have to fuel my cars and I pay the price. I usually don't even look at the price or total amount paid unless I print a receipt.

I predict people will see huge hit in FE using E85, become frustrated, and go back to gasoline. In addition, the jury is still out on the energy consumed to plant, grow, harvest, process, transport, store, and dispense Ethanol a mostly-new system. From the processing point onward, the traditional gasoline distribution system won't work because of water attraction. I also understand that NOx is increased 3-5% per gallon. If you start to burn this stuff in bulk, expect respiratory problems like asthma to exponentially increase. The EPA is working to remove this and particulate (soot) from Diesel for this reason. Granted, Ethanol does reduce CO2 emissions, but I'm not convinced that it's the best answer to the question. It might be a piece of a varied amounts solutions, who knows.

RH77

I have to disagree again. What part of this is opinion? There is scientific data supporting much of what is said. If you're referring to the political comments, then quote it as such. What is wrong, exactly?

RH77

Hi theclencher - ¨I do recall Chris stating that buttery smooth intake tracts are a wonderful thing when in fact state-of-the-art practice holds that some surface roughness in the intake tract promotes better mixture homogeneity.¨

On exhasut ports I polish them to a brilliant shine which reduces carbon build up, which maintains their flow capability for many years.

For inlet ports if its a mulitpoint EFI car we polish the ports.
This is because the fuel is added just at the back of the inlet valve and doesnt have time to fall out of suspension.
On a carby or single port EFI I leave a random paterned surface by using some tough glass paper on a power tool.

Any fuel that wishes to stick to the port wall has a hard time due to lack of surface tension.(grip) and it will get reintroduced into the airstream.

I was only looking at the E85 stuff at the bottom of the page that states a reduction in FE by 25% with only a 10% reduction in GHG. The Wiki article states the same thing.

OK, but...
 

Someone will have to verify the data. I say a road-trip to MN! I love it up there. MN and Wisconsin are my favorites. I suppose I could get a crisp new 10-spot for a paid trip :p

LOL -- how many miles do drive? And where's your Gaslog young man? :)
The Tempo must be the 90's answer to the Dodge Dart.
The agency was actually owned by a Honda dealer in town (first time I got to rent an Accord :thumbup: ), so their service department may be seeing what's happening.
My morning coffee costs $4.65 (Triple Grande Almond Mocha) -- 7 years on high octane! I agree with the price theory.
10. That said, I'm not sure E85 is the answer.

YES!!! :thumbup:

RH77

Can't vouch for most of this:

"You will always get better gas mileage with the straight gas vs. gasahol because the alcohol dilutes the BTU's in the gas. And since an automobile engine is a BTU burner you will lose 5-10% in MPG. Try adding K-1 kerosene to your gas or gasahol. I've added 1 gallon per 10 gallons in my gas to offset the alcohol effect, and it cleans your fuel system at the same time. Try it."


"Think I stumbled across a combo that might help your winter mileage.

3 ounces of acetone
2 1/2 ounces of Xylene
1 ounce of Ethos FR $15.95 qt ..... $15.95 / 16 = $1.00 per 10 G

Ethos FR costs around $.62 per 10 G if bought by the gallon

Add this to every ten gallons of gasoline and try it out. You might have to adjust the acetone to what you were getting your best gas mileage with when you were using acetone. In my case three ounces did it for me.

Just started using this and mileage went to 21.5 on my F150. The best I could get in winter without anything was 19.0. The best in summer so far with acetone alone was 21. Will keep testing and fine tuning this combo and keep you updated but wanted to share with everyone out there."


""We recently proved that Carb Medic from Gunk (and other GUNK
products) can raise mileage when 1 to 3 oz. are used with 2 or 3 oz.
of acetone per 10 gallons of gasoline, especially in COLD WEATHER."

*LaPointe"


"I will say that some have added a few drops of #2 heating oil to about 10 gals of gasoline containing alcohol desiring to 'refresh' the deliberate de-powering of said fuel. Use the heating oil sparingly! Keep in mind that #2 oil is not thesame any longer to diesel. Let us know what you find. LaPointe"

"There are of course other additives that improve mileage (which also have had less than a favorable reception by the petroleum industry). Certain octane improvers for example also aid mileage. We recently proved that Carb Medic from Gunk can raise mileage when 3 oz. are used with 2 oz. of acetone per 10 gallons of gasoline, EVEN IN COLD WEATHER. LaPonte"

K1 and heating oil have sulfur in them and will wreck havoc with the cat and in cold weather+engine will not burn very well producing a lot of white smoke and can cause dieseling (engine run on) after the key is turned off in non-FI cars.

E10 doesn't lower FE in all cars!
 

I've heard this said many times (in the last few months, after looking for FE info on this site and others), however that's not true in all cars (so it's a YMMV thing). The thing that people who say this forget, is that while ethanol has less BTUs than gas, it also has some burn properties that some engines find "cleaner" (more ideal burn). And this difference in burn properties can offset the lower BTUs (in E10 vs E0) in some engines. As a result, not all cars get lower FE on E10 (some do, but some don't). And with some cars, this effect can more than compensate for the BTU difference, and actually give you better FE on E10 than you get on E0! So this is clearly a YMMV thing (i.e. try it in your car, and see how much of a FE difference it makes, and in which direction).

And FWIW my car actually appears to be one of them that is happier on E10 than on E0! I just got done doing my second E10/E0 ABA test (i.e. E10 => E0 => E10 ) this summer, and guess what? In both cases, both the FE and the performance went DOWN when I used E0, and back up when I put the E10 in. Now, I don't know how typical this is, but it is clearly not true that every car would benefit from using E0 (and therefore we should avoid gasohol at all opportunities). Instead, since this is a YMMV thing, you should really try it and see which is better for your car (assuming that both are available in your area). As for me, I think I'll stick with the E10, as I get more engine pickup/performance + better FE with it...

I agree.
https://www.ethanol.org/documents/ACE...onomyStudy.pdf
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2006..._tests_e1.html

DATA?:D

i hate the idea that you are forced to buy E10 and in some places E20, not only does it reduce fuel efficiency it cost more energy to create a gallon of ethanol than it is worth through cultivation, harvesting, processing and transportion, not to mention all of the pesticides and fertilizers used. i think E85 isent bad but you should have a choice in buying it.

bottom line Ethanol as a fuel SUCKS!!

SUCKS ? Don't believe it.
In principle ethanol is great.

Don't blame it for an economic systems that is geard up to make any other non gas fuel more expensive.
If they used the wast bio-matter to make an alcohol fuel it would be cheap as chips.

And as for less FE and power is concerned , raise the engines compresion ratios and that will be restored , or improved on.

Base line is ,, its goverment (world govt) policy that makes all alternative fuels unviable and it will continue to be that way untill they work out a way to sell it at greater profit than what they get from gasoline.