Synthetic oil helps FE? (oh no not this topic)
 

I'm sure this subject has been debated here a lot. I was wondering why my mileage today was so high. I got 53.2 mpg on one trip with endless red lights, 56.2 on another which I usually get about 47-50 mpg on. Then I remembered I put Mobil 1 in my car last night for the first time (first oil change). Coincidence? Probably, but interesting nontheless.

I've yet to test this. Perhaps this can be a good test for us to do as a group. We can all use sythetics for three months and see if it makes a difference or not.

The idea behind this basically is that thinner oils offer less resistance inside the engine. Typically non-synthetic oils are only available down to 5w20 viscocity rating, whereas synthetic is available in a 0w?? rating (not sure what the higher number is). This is because supposedly, synthetics will lubricate better with less viscocity, which allows lower viscocity (thickness). Therefore, there will be less resistance in the engine from the oil, and it will run more efficiently.

I can say from experience that an engine I've had that had 20w50 in it when I got it (the owner felt all old engines needed heavy oil regardless of condition), and I swapped it out for 10w30, and I could literally feel the engine be more responsive.

Therefore, in theory, there is something to this synthetic oil bit. However, I'm not going to try it as I've got 207,000 miles on my car's clock, and old cars don't typically take to synthetic well. They tend to leak easier with synthetic (perhaps because of its thin-ness, same basic reason some people use 20w50 in old cars). If you're already using 5w20, I'm not sure how much improvement synthetic would offer.

Ime using fully synthetic oils now , but I cant know if I made a FE improvement because I didnt get a baseline form when it had mineral oil in it.

Where I live synthetic costs almost the same as normal oilz ., so I say , ?dont use normal oil , save the dynosaurs !!!? :D

Any oil change...
 

I think any oil change will show an increase in FE, synthetic or dino.

I just changed the oil in the 'Teg, otherwise I'd try the test with a full-synthetic. I could do it on the next change.

RH77

I've experienced the same thing as aelfwyne. I got a crx once that someone was running 20w-50 in and i switched to 5w-30 and I could feel the difference instantly. Also on my volvo, I've switched from 10W-40 to 5W-50 syth and I can notice that the turbo spools faster and I reach full boost at a lower RPM. I'm not sure how much gain there is to be had from running lighter synthetics, but I'm sure there is some.

Synthetics are made from petrolium too ya know unless you are talking Synlube.

I agree. I think that it's just coincidence, that and the fact that your breaking the car in. That's close to a 10% change and I don't think mobil 1 will give that to ya unless you were running 80w gear lube before the change:D I'm running Amsoil 5w-30 changed from Castrol 10-30 and noticed no significant increase in FE but then again thats really hard to quantify with out a Dyno.

Heres a link that I found , they say 8.2% better FE with synthetics.

https://www.smartsynthetics.com/artic...e_increase.htm

Hi JanGeo - ?Synthetics are made from petrolium too?

Yes , true (I guess that is why they still call it oil and not lubricant) but the base oil is highly modified to get a more uniform size of oil molecules.
Then they add , , , additives that stabilise the oil and some also add friction reducing stuff.
Because the oil is constructed and not simply refined they can remove the parts of oil that cause wax buildups, so generaly this means , less varnish and other gummy oild deposits that normally build up inside the engine over a long period of time.

But yeah ,, ?oils is oils - Sol.?

Yes but "The vehicles equipped with AMSOIL synthetic lubricants in the engines, transmissions and drive axles demonstrated up to an 8.2 percent increase in miles per gallon (mpg) over the mpg obtained by the vehicles equipped with the control lubricants"

I thought that we were taking about an oil change. These are also big diesel rigs. I wonder if it would be the same for a small effiencent gasoline car? I know when I went to amsoil there was no significant increase in FE. Your mileage may vary.

Hi zpiloto -?lubricants in the engines, transmissions and drive axles?

Yup . your rite , the site clearly says that they lubed up the trucks everywehere and got the 8.2%.
I would expect a measurable FE increase even in small gas cars , even just with the engine oil chnage , but as with most FE improvements they are individualy quite small.

Trucks - big ones - are running harder and may show FE increase because of heavy loads more than cars under lighter loads.

Synlube is NOT made from any petrolium products.

Hi JanGeo -?Synlube is NOT made from any petrolium products.?

So it really is dynosaur friendly :thumbup:

yup and totally recyclable - in fact should you ever need to change it they want it back to reprocess it.

The smaller number (before the w) is the cold viscosity, and the larger number (after the w) is the hot viscosity. Cold viscosity is what matters when you first start your engine (because thick cold oil can harm an engine when first starting, so the smaller the "cold" number the better), and after several minutes (when the engine is fully "warmed up") the large hot viscosity number is what matters (because at that point you are at "steady state" and want an oil thick enough to do the needed work, but not so thick you are wasting effort/FE dealing with that thickness).

Yes, one advantage of synthetics is that because they are generally better lubricants, you can (in theory) use a lower viscosity (i.e. thinner oil), and still have OK protection. However, even at the same viscosity, a synthetic will generally have lower friction (and that can effect FE some). Also, synthetics generally clean an engine better, and a cleaner engine should (in theory) run better (and get better FE).

So I think you are better off with synthetics FE wise, even at the same viscosity. The effect isn't huge (I think Mobil advertises an average 3% gain for their Mobil-1 oil vs dino oil), but many people (myself included) think the effect is real. And if you use the fact that synthetic oil is higher quality to also lower the viscosity (i.e. use thinner oil), you can increase FE even more in many cases.

BTW: If you pay attention to the additive packs (which often means buying the same basic type and brand of oil), there is nothing wrong with mixing oil weights, to get the thickness you are looking for (especially when the weight you are looking for isn't sold in the stores). For example, I've recently started adding a little (fully synthetic) 5w20 oil to the mix, to thin out my 5w30 (which is the majority of my oil) just a little bit (i.e. giving myself essentially a 5w28, or thereabouts)...

In addition, synthetic oils generally cool better than dino oils. And if the oil is cooling better, more of the engine (or transmission, if you have synthetic transmission fluid) heat will be handled by the oil (and less will have to be handled by the "cooling system"). While this is "a good thing" overall, it probably doesn't make a huge FE difference, but it could easily make a small one. For example, if more of the engine is being cooled by the oil, the radiator fan might have to run less often (which means a little less electrical usage, which means a little less alternator drag on the engine).

BTW: It's been a while since I switched over to synthetics, but I remember the increase in "power" being quite noticeable. And my old gas logs seem to indicate that the car's average FE went up a little after the switch over as well (however I didn't run a lot of tankfuls on the old "dino oil", so there is always the normal fluctuation between tankfuls to consider). Still, a good synthetic does seem to help in my personal experience.

NOTE: Be aware that "high mileage" cars will typically leak a LOT when first switching over to synthetic. But after the additives in most good synthetics work to refurbish the seals, this extra leaking often goes away on its own. Also, because synthetic usually clean better, long standing sludge/varnish can brake loose as well (quickly clogging oil filters, or worse, when you first switch over). For both of those reasons, use short (2k-3k) oil change intervals for the first couple of oil changes, when first switching over a "well used vehicle" to synthetics. But the "good news" is that after you get over this initial "cut over period" the vehicles will generally be happier on the synthetics.

NOTE: Once your engine is cleaned up, you can often run the synthetics much longer than dino oil (10k+ per oil change is common, and 20k+ isn't unheard of with top quality oil and filters). And this much longer time between oil changes can easily save you more money than the cost difference (vs using cheap oil/filters, and changing it more often). But to take advantage of this, you have to make sure you have enough oil (check the dip-stick, if you have any leaks), and you have to use quality oil filters (to keep the crud out of the oil). Because if/when the oil gets dirty, it's time to do an oil change (even if the oil was otherwise OK). So by using extra good filtration, dirt is no longer the reason why you have to change your oil (and other factors, such as when the oil's additive pack is used up, become the key reason to need an oil change).

FWIW: The current theory over on "Bob is the oil guy" forums, is that the new Amsoil EAO (they use a new nano-fiber synthetic media) oil filters (not Amsoil's older filter model, the new EAO filters only), are about the best "full flow" filters you can easily find on the market. They aren't cheap (about $10/each at the "wholesale price" available to "preferred customers" of Amsoil, and about $15/each retail). However, the specs on them are VERY impressive (Amsoil rates them for 1 year or 25k miles, they have a good flow rate, AND impressively fine filtration). I've just started using them, and so far the car is very happy (but I haven't had them on very long yet). Still others over on BITOG have used them longer then I have (and even cut them open, to examine the results better), and many BITOG members are impressed with what these filters can do!

I agree with DracoFelis on how you should introduce syn oils (especially mobil 1) to a high mileage vehicle. However, on all three of the vehicles that I introduced M1 onto, none exhibited any signs of any seal refurbishing. The leaks only became worse over the 40,000 miles of use. On those vehicles I went back to using dino, and voila! No more leaks. At all.

And a viscosity theory that I hold about M1 would be that its barely a 5w30 oil. Maybe thats the reason I've seen the small increase in power and FE using it. Also, my OA's with Mobil so far have not been good, so I am temporarily staying away from M1(too much wear).

i was typically getting 41-43mpg with "normal" oil. after switching to synthetic, i am getting 41-43mpg. i did have one miracle tank of 45.04mpg, but that was just once...

edit: milage was in the warmer months... i dont get that once it gets colder...
things might get better now in that the summer months are coming :)

In my experience, fouled oil decreases engine performance. In some cases, the oil was so thick that I could feel it. Mobil-1 was not much different from standard oil because I still had to change the oil every 3-5k miles.

After switching to a long-life oil (25,000 miles), I don't think about oil much anymore, except to top it off.

What do you guys think about changing my tranny fluid to "Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF". This is in a 95 1.0L Metro 5 speed.

Has never been changed in 120,000 anyways, so might be a good idea regardless of FE.

I had the same experience as Gammy. I didn't do a baseline but I noticed a big difference on cold mornings. I think it's mainly attributed to changing to synthetic diff fluid though. My truck felt like the e-brake was on before it warmed up on extremely cold mornings and when I switched, the slugginess went away.

John david

ok few things some got addressed.

its a new car and your first oil change. that old factory oil cleaned all the little burrs, dirt deposits, super small sand particals, and anytign else (small fibers of gaskets etc). so once you got rid of all that stuff of course its going to see better FE, has nothing to do with sythetic or not. coulda changed it with straight dino oil and it would have seen just about the same increase...

and baddog yea i would change it. manual trannys dont have to have the fluid changed often at all. not anywhere near an auto does. mostly because its essentially just a gearbox. but id change it every 100K miles or so. same with the diferential (if you have RWD)

and for those of you who switched to long life oils, you still have to change the oil filters every 3k...its just like an air filter, just cuz you got some new high performance intake you till have to change the filter or recharge it...

i know for a fact if i run the dino oil ment for high mileage engines that my chevette wont leak or use a drop. if i run regular dino oil same weight it will leak a tad...but usually i can find a great deal on it castrol GTX high milleage 5 qts+ fram filter is only $13.99

From my experence I have seen switching to synthetics go from making little difference in mpg, to making a significant improvement in mpg, and even making mpg worse!

For me the bigger the engine is the more potential margin for improvement there would be from reduced internal friction by synthetic oil. Making the change on a new small well fitting engine has made little initial difference to even worse than dyno oil.
I've read some folks theory that helps support the worse mileage on synthetic initially is actually caused by improper breakin. There theory goes that you need to run a new engine at high rpm during breakin with dyno oil or it will just sludge up the ring gaps and not really break in properly. Then when you switch to synthetic the sludge gets washed away and you get drop in MPG for a long time until the engine finally wears in. My wife's car went through this very same drop in MPG when I switching to synthetic after the first 2k but it did eventually come back up some 8k miles later...
I did not get to drive her car much during that break in time and getting her to switch off the overdrive and wind it up a bit was not happening.....

If it were me , on the manual trans , I'd go ahead with a 30k interval . Thats me though - I tend to be a bit over zealous with maintainence . Is the Metro spec'd for ATF in the manual ? I am aware that many manual trans are , but am curious if the Metros are also ( for my own knowledge )

Now on that 3k filter change :eek: ?!! You sure about that :confused: ? Got a link or a definitive reference about it ? (again for my own reference )

no but think about it, its a filter right? the dino oil is not what gets them clogged its all the carbon from piston blowby and all other little fragments of metal and dirt. doesnt matter what oil you use it still gets carbon blowby, still gets dirt in it, still gets little ammounts of metal...

oh and its only 25,000 miles OR ONE YEAR!
https://www.go-synthetic.com/oil_change/oil_change.htm

it even says to change the filter per manufacturers instructions, or if you use thiers its every 6 months or 12,500 miles...

I realize the Amsoil thing ( I've used it , good stuff !) The new EaO Filters are great - although even Amsoil will tell you they are a once an interval filter...end infomercial .
Standard filters are cheap (read Inexpensive ) and recycleable too . The filter swap and oil top off certainly won't hurt a thing . I've been on a 6 mo/10k max schedule for years and it works for me . At most 2 changes/filters a year as up until recently I've never put 10k on in a year .
I just don't get the 3k interval even if extended drain oil is used , especially since most manufacturers are on a 5 , 7.5 or 10k oci with dino oil (many with an *every other* oci, change the filter clause). So why does the filter need a 3k interval with extended drain oil?

Experiment. I have found the perfect combo for my vehicle. Right now, I'm in love with Bosch oil filters. They are less then K&N, and it seems to run smoohter.

m

i gotta use either bosh or delco in my truck cuz it has a checkvalve that prevents the oil from draining back down in the night so it has some valve chatter in the first start of the morning.

why? i never changed the oil on any of my cars before 4k miles, even the new one.

the surface area of the filter and the size of the motor could be set to whatever combination and the filter could last longer. honda recommends 8k miles right??

i will never change any sooner than 5k or every 6 months

For the Element, Honda recommends 20k mile oil filter change intervals. I'm not saying that's a good or bad thing. I'm just saying.

Yeah the oil breaking down makes the sludge so if you use good oil the filter stays clean. I used to change oil twice a year and the filter once a year usually in the spring since the winter was the tougher months.

Hey the guy in Texas that seems to be matching me in gas mileage in an xB is using Torco motor oils and EAL additives while I am using Synlube. We both use acetone and GP7 in the gas too.

I agree with you on changing that manual trannys oil. It's overdue by 20k, but in my used oil analysis I have found that on any modern engine (1994+) with under 175,000miles the amsoil EaO filters will give amazing filtration with HARD driving up to 15,000miles on any good oil, dino or not. They are designed for 25,000.

I suggest you try NAPA Gold filters. I've got an engine with the same needs, and both the bosch and the delco don't do as well as the napa gold for anti-drainback for stopping that chatter

ahh i have access to: napa, carquest, autozone, advance autoparts, orileys.

how much is the napa filter? i usually dont go in napa cuz thier parts are more expensive and kinda a pain to get to...

I've seen this on the discovery channel, i think?? but its mainly all down the the molecules in the oils. regular oil molecules is shaped like a round ball with spikes. the synthetic oil is like smooth ball bearings so its low friction. also the synthetic doesn't break down as fast as reg oil.
also (in my opinion) if you get a new veh. don't use synthetics until the 1st or 2nd oil change. the synthetic oil is too slippery to seat the new rings, it may have lots of oil burn or low compression if the rings don't seat. after the 1st or 2nd oil change your good to use synthetics.

It all depends on what ya drive...mine is $5.69
I would have looked it up for ya, but you don't have a garage entry...

Man you are sooo right on this...in fact I'd wait until the fourth oil change...I know so many ppl that don't wait and for the life of thier engine, they use more than 1.5qts of oil every 6000miles. its sad.
and that kills the o2 prematurely and the catalytic ya know?

Don't a lot of new cars come out of the factory with synthetic?

this brings up a good conversation... ive heard its best to drive the car hard while breaking it in. i did with the fit and the mpg sucked in the beginning, but it seems to be doing much better now....

I've also heard driving your new car hard in the beginning is good like taxis and police cars(good power from seating the rings). but from the new car manufactures I've heard driving it easy/low rpms / slow is good also. so who knows??