PCV Catch Jar Question
 

I got my plans from CRXmpg.com and just installed it, but I have a question about the device. I used an air compressor filter like the instructions said, but there is a filter designed for air that the oil needs to go through before it gets into the can. In the plans, there are two pictures of it installed. In the first one, this white filter is attached to the jar, but on the second, it looks like it has been removed. Should I remove this before the air filter fills up and clogs the input, or is it kosher where it is?

Take the little filter out.

Thanks!

i left mine in and cut a 2mm hole in the very tip of that filter, so it never clogs, but the air becomes turbulent enough to help clean the air out a little more.

to test different setups i mounted 2 filters in sequence.
-with both filters in, the first began to fill quickly and slowly the 2nd followed suite.
-with the filter completely out of the 1st the 2nd filled faster than the 1st.
-with the hole in the first filter the first filled at what seemed to be the same rate as the 2nd.

its a shame the filter definitely clogs if unmodified...

So you just drilled straight up to the top?

Yay for being not completely useless, I need to edit in that part more clearly and post up some other pictures.

I just created this little McGeiver tonight.




Yeah, I know, it's a freaking peanut butter jar haha.

Whatever gets the job done. At least you won't need to dump it very often. I think that I'll have to dump mine every few hundred miles with how much gunk is being pulled out.

Also, SVO, thanks alot for the plans. I installed it in front of Home Depot earlier today, put 30 miles on it and am already seeing a huge difference. In 30 miles, the bottom of it is already filling up. I don't see why car manufacturers don't make this a stock part considering how much crap that it's filtering out. I'll find out on my next fill how much of a difference this makes on my FE.

Umm , because it violates emission laws maybe ?!

Really? I was under the impression that it reduced emissions because the gas being sent back into the engine is cleaner. It's essentially taking some oil that would be sent into the engine to be unintentionally burnt with gasoline out of the mix so that what goes back into the injector is clean gas.

How does it negatively alter my emissions?

This is how it works.

The PCV (postive crankcase ventialtion) is a system that attempts to improve emisions that would normaly be vented to the atmosphere by reintroducing them back into the intake to be burnt.

Inside the engines crankcase (everything below the compresion rings) there is oil mist (windage) and blow by (compression that has leaked past the rings).
These have the effect of presurising the crankcase area.

This in turn would create leaks at the seals and gaskets , so the engine degigners must make a vent system to keep the crankcase presure low.

In the old days they would just vent to the outside air.

Since this unburnt gas and oil mix is not good for the environment they decided to send it back to the intake to be consumed in the combustion chamber., hence the PCV emissions system.

This provided the needed venting and effectively controlled the emisions.

Alterning thePCV system and changing to an oil catch can will increase emisions and violate EPA laws.
If you catch the oil then you must dispose of it somehow , this waste is polution.
If the top of the oil catch can is vented to the atmosphere you may still catch the oil but not the gas fumes.
This too is polution and a violation of EPA laws.

If the vent on the top of the oil catch can is plumbed back to a vac line then it will introduce those fuel gasses back into the intake., but this fuel is unmetered and wont improve FE.

If it did ,, then worrn out engines that make lots of blowby would be superiour FE machines , but of course, we know thats not true.



PS ,, the only time an oil catch can could possible improve FE is on a realy nakkered engine.
A poor engine which was attempting to burn its blowby waste could foul the spark plugs causing only a partial burn of the intake charge thus dropping engine power which in turn would need more GO pedal.- Meaning less FE.
On this engine an catch can or just venting the crankacase to the atmosphere could improve FE by allowing a more normal combustion.

Of course it would be a lot smarter to rebuild the dying engine instead.

Exactly rite

For sure you have significant ring/bore wear.

Before adding the catch can did you notice a large amount of oil in the air filter ?

I bet you did.

In a good engine there should be NO oil in the air filter housing.

A properly set up catch can (at least by this method) does not vent to the atmosphere, just to clear things up. Some people do, but I did not.

Mine doesn't vent to the outside air either. The PCV system still goes from the engine block to the intake manifold, but between the two there is a chamber that allows the heavier gasses like oil to condense and become liquid again while the gasoline goes back into the manifold. At no point does this go back into the atmosphere. The gunk captured by the catch can will be recycled along with regular used motor oil.

There hasn't been any carbon buildup on the filter yet. It seems like with any older car though, this is pretty normal for a few thousand miles until the system is cleaned out.

?Carbon build up? ? . there wont be any.
You can get oil mist combining again into oil residue in the air filter housing but not carbon.

?until the system is cleaned out?
The PCV system is not like a rubbish storage device that will then deposit it into the oil catch can after its fitted.

The rate that the pick up can will fill at depends on a few things.(including driving style , brand of oil etc)

Vertical scores or deep scratches on the cylinder wall usualy will show with a consistant rate of oil loss.(into the can)

Vertical scratches on the rings will like-wise show consistant oil loss.

Other ring problems , chipped faces , loss of tension , general ring or piston ring groove wear , or sticking rings may work with minimal oil loss at some times and then at other times a lot of oil loss.

I've seen carbon on the filter on a car that I owned in the past. Something was wrong with the throttle body and carbon was getting to the air filter for some reason. After a few thousand miles of it, my mechanic found it during an oil change and the entire back of the filter was black. I was going to change the filter about 200 miles ago, but when I took it out and took a look at it, it was still in good condition, so I left it in. The back of the paper was still pretty white. No oil mist is making its way to the filter.

I haven't had it in long enough to know if it's going to fill at a constant rate, but I will in a few days. I need to drive alot for my work, so I'm taking a look it whenever I get to a location. I drove about 120 miles today and it seems to me that it's filling a little slower, but I'll know for certain after a few more days of driving it around. I am aware of what the PCV system does though. When I said "clean out" i didn't mean the PCV system, but the whole engine interior. If this oil isn't being run into my injectors to be burned the engine should naturally clean its self out (especially with the acetone that I've been adding). The carbon buildup inside the engine will at least slow down because this oil isn't being burned any more.

I don't think that there are any significant problems with the cylinders. I still have good compression and drive it enough to know that it's running fine.

You cant get carbon in the air filter.
You can get black dried fuel (crrap) burped back to the inside of the air filter element if the engine backfires.
You can also get dried oil residue which may also look carbon-ish on the outside of the air filter element but this is most likely just dried oil (crrap) from the emmision lines.
But it is not carbon in the same sence as what is found in the exhaust ports of the engine.
Carbon requires that oil (or oil based product) be burnt , and I dont think theres much oil burning going on in your air filter element housing .--do you?

?If this oil isn't being run into my injectors to be burned the engine?
The oil (blowby waste) NEVER goes through the fuel injectors.
It is reintroduced in 2 places depending upon throttle position , either at the air cleaner element housing or to the inlet manifold.

The old one didn't backfire, so I guess it was dried oil getting to the housing, and since I don't have any oil on my air filter on this car, it's obviously taking the second route back and going into the engine. The PCV catch can takes much of this oil out. I don't like oil burning in my engine. It's bad for emissions. Believe it or not (though this could just be placebo effect), the engine seems to be running a little quieter and smoother now with the catch can.

Also, and I know how much everyone here hates tank to tank comparisons, I think that this may have been responsible for my city driving mileage going up to 32.2 on this tank rather than the 29-30 norm. I'll see if the trend continues.

It's not the oil from he PCV system that causes the problem of messing up the intake tract. That problem is causes by EGR. A light coating of oil is nothing, but the clogging of passages, and orifaces with carbon is the actual problem.
I hate to stay it... But as a mechanic, racer, engine builder, and tuner. Catch cans are completely stupid. They are balked at, as they should be. They do not solve a problem. They *mask* it.

If you want to get rid of the fact that small quantities of oil are sucked through the engine. Pull your valve cover<s> off. Anyplace where there is a breather hole attached, (Keep in mind that most engines use both a PCV going to high intake manifold, AND an open breather hose going to pre-throttlebody vacuum) shield this area from oil that flies about via the valvetrain. Most properly designed engines (:rolleyes:) will already have mostly shielding, and need little modification. Oil not only flies directly to the breather hole, but it also is shot on the valve cover wall, and runs down it at a high rate of speed. This is where most directly shielded engines fail.

1. Clean the valve cover of oil with acetone
2. Cut, and bend metal strips to cover said passages, while allowing for vacuum the ability to suck ambient gasses from the crankcase
3. Weld, braze, or JB weld your pieces on the breather

Congratulations. You've now actually *solved* a problem. instead of simply trying to cover it up.





You also get other benifits, such as replacing valve cover gasket<s> that are common to leak in many instances. You see the condition the engine oil, and maintenance is on the engine. Many engines have other maintenance proceedures can be done at the same time by a gneeric home mechanic.

To show my point...
Here is your typical construction DOHC v6. It has an open breather to pre-throttlebody intake, and a PCV valve from the opposite bank directly to intake manifold.

It is not the oil that has built up, burned, and is causing a problem. It is the presence of carbon from the EGR system that is causing the problem...


https://www.fuelly.com/attachments/fo...5228578d77.jpg
https://www.fuelly.com/attachments/fo...08ef717cdc.jpg
This particular engine was only 4 years old at the time, of normal mileage. It shows a normal amount of carbon build-up for an EGR equipped vehicle.

Well, just remember it cakes the entire intake, and is caused by EGR. Not breathered oil.




I will also state for the record... 9-12 months you should clean the ports or they'll look like that. You'll also loose 5-10bhp depending on the engine because of the velocity drop caused by the carbon build-up.


The fastest way to remove it is with a die grinder, or dremel with a flexable extension. Use a #502 80 or # 503 120 grit flap-wheel sanding disk. You can also do minor smoothing & porting with it. In the case of a dremel, they cost around $9 for either. And have enough of a lifespan when not used for porting to do a long runner 32 valve v8. Both the intake ports in the head, and any upper manifold runners, and pluemn chambers in the process.

https://66.77.255.87/Images/DREMELACC..._PD/503_pd.jpghttps://66.77.255.87/Images/DREMELACC..._PD/502_pd.jpg







https://www.fuelly.com/attachments/fo...45b9587dae.jpg
VS
https://www.fuelly.com/attachments/fo...7d265dd73d.jpg
https://www.fuelly.com/attachments/fo...ed7987abd5.jpg


https://www.fuelly.com/attachments/fo...41fe2df517.jpg
VS
https://www.fuelly.com/attachments/fo...d46e466404.jpg

[QUOTE=Toysrme]But as a mechanic, racer, engine builder, and tuner.

https://www.fuelly.com/attachments/fo...41fe2df517.jpg

https://www.fuelly.com/attachments/fo...d46e466404.jpg

As a mechanic, racer, engine builder, and tuner it looks like to me that you have failed at head work 101.
Matching and/or englargening ports went out of style 30 years ago.

Do you realy think that auto makers that designs and builds hi-tech 4 valve per cylinder engines are so stupid as to allow a mistake like a missmatch between the intake and head ports for no reason ?

in the early 90s toyota realized it's about being able to change the intake runner length, and if i'm not mistaken, implemented it in the 3vz-fe. not that porting, polishing. balancing, etc... won't help a modern engine, but they probably won't help a modern engine significantly. variable length intake manis already optimizes intake velocity. otoh, it's kinda like the idea of weight reduction. every little bit helps, but you're not gonna shave anything significant off your qm times by taking out an air freshener.

Ok , ime going to put mine back in then - thanks :D

https://www.protecdirect.co.uk/Images...s/SXNSMTNC.jpg

Hmmm... makes me wonder why you need it. :D ;)
https://z.about.com/d/animatedtv/1/0/..._stinky_72.jpg

[QUOTE=onegammyleg]Ahem! Is this what you really said? If we regard an engine as an air pump, with production tolerances being (as loose) what they are, then we can ignore all the turbulence-causing steps, ID /OD mismatches, jammed up port cross-sections, rough walls, flashings, poor design curvatures (bean counter me$$), and the like? NIMBY...! I like smooth,non-twisting paths for my airflow. Requires less power, too! After all, 14.7 psi ain't gonna push in but so much "air"... even under ideal (ported, polished) conditions. I'll admit, low RPM work isn't bothered by this, but if you try to make serious power...you'll need good airflow. :D

Matching and/or englargening ports went out of style 30 years ago.
Hi Ted :-)

&#168;Ahem! Is this what you really said?&#168; - YES , i said exactly that.

&#168;If we regard an engine as an air pump&#168; - we cant assume that under all circumstances.

&#168;with production tolerances being (as loose) what they are,&#168; - Are they ?? - I dont think so.
A production tolerance means that a specification may vary within an allowable percentage.
When talking dimensions of a crankshaft journal for example , a tolerance could be between 1.5 and 2.5 thousands of an inch, which as you would agree is small in relation to the journal size.
This possible variation in size is tolerance.
Having a manifold mismatch of 5mm is NOT production tolerance.

&#168;rough walls, flashings&#168; - in an inlet manifold for example these have little influence on total flow.

&#168;poor design curvatures&#168; - Under most conditions even a 90 degree bend in an inlet or exhaust manifold wont seriously affect flow as long as the area remains the same.

&#168;I like smooth,non-twisting paths for my airflow. Requires less power, too!&#168; - as most of the air flows in the centre of the manifold , umm hole , surface texture has minimal effect on flow. Twisting paths as i said earlier have minimal effect if the area is unchanged.

This manifold has a few twisty bits., but ime sure it flows well.

https://www.romanvirdi.com/tuscany/001_582.jpg

&#168;but if you try to make serious power...you'll need good airflow. :D&#168; - well . I was making 100+ horsepower per litre engines about 25 years ago now , with no EFI , turbos , twin cams ,4 valves per cylinder or variable cam timing.
With turbos I have made 200 hp per litre.(but still no twin cam or 4v) , and I must add that these were normal road cars , with good road manners not some undrivable track racer.

Ime not blowing my own horn here , but I think that shows that I know a little about how to make power.,,

The fact is , that most power gains with porting are done with work within an inch of the valves head., Cutting and grinding excessivley further up the intake port rarely makes more power , but effectively screws bottom end drive ability.

As flow benches have become more common the idea of huge ported and polished ports are dead and buried , this has been proven time and again.

Your rite.

In fact many of the old v8's had quite screwy shapes in the ports.

Likely this was because of them trying to improve flow in a bad port.
Pre efi V8's often had very low ports so as to meet up with the valley intake manifold and have a low hood hight.

https://www.airflowresearch.com/pages...-int-tweak.jpg

In old v8 heads often the charge had to navigate around casting for the pushrods.(and/or head bolts) , then they have to alter the direction again to try and generate some sort of swirl.

It rarely was done well and so head workers had good work modifying them to flow well.

Now days with port efi , better intake system designs and OHC engines manufacturers can get a fairly straight shot down the port now.

https://www.timgilles.com/photogaller...chaindrive.jpg

This is where a lot of power has been made in new generation v8's.


--Man , has this gone off thread or what ?! .. Sorry , me bad.:o

olg thanks for the education! you saved me a lot of typing:)