LRR tires "Green Seal" Report March '03
 

I am SURE everyone has seen this report from Green Seal by now (low rolling resistance tires).

https://www.greenseal.org/resources/r...resistance.pdf

Unfortunately, this very informative information has introduced me to a new problem. Even the lightest LRR tire that I can find for the size that I want (195/70/14) is still 3LBS heavier than a non-LRR tire (read: a tire that I have no rolling resistance information on whatsoever).

My question to the group is, what would you do....opt for the 3LB heavier low rolling resistance tires...or the lightest tires that I can find for this size (without regard for any rolling resistance)? Comments? Suggestions?

Brian D -

Thank You! I haven't seen this report and I am in the market.

This doesn't answer your question directly, but the Michelin MXV4s come in other sizes :

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....e1=yes&place=1

So each of these tires may come in different sizes/weights too.

I would look for comparable specs in the brand/model of tire listed. Go look at TireRack.com for info. When you click the Specs you get all the tire weights for the model of tire.

CarloSW2

Very curious, I wonder if this is a gross oversight on the part of the manufacturer? I.E. if the testing method was to see how far something rolled after being brought up to speed, then a heavier tire would roll farther (and subsequently be incorrectly labeled a LRR tire).

Hopefully they measured the actual force on the tire at a given load/speed, but you never know...

CR
 

Consumer Reports does rolling resistance tests on all tires tests since about a year ago (it was intermittent before that). I'm too cheap as of late to renew my online membership to see which ones are best :rolleyes:

At the time they allowed reprinting of the info for educational purposes (being non-profit). They may break them down by size/weight -- not sure (for comparison)

RH77

Brian D.,

I was researching LRR tires in the correct size 165/70R13 for my '95 VX last year and came across Vredestein Quatrac2 tires. 195/70/14 weighs 21 lbs:

https://www.tiresunlimited.com/ALL%20...ed_quatrac.htm

Also, I bought 2 sets of Nokian tires for my VX over the time I owned it. Nokians are LRR tires and very lightweight, at least in size 165/70/13, so you may want to check them out as well:

https://www.nokiantires.com/en/DEFAULT.ASPX

The Nokian NRT2 (discontinued) is one of the tires in the 2003 Greenseal Report, and I'm certain their other tires are also LRR...they seem to have a commitment to fuel efficiency and performance. Let us how the Vredesteins and Nokians compare weight-wise to the LRR tire you found.

Steve

Steve,

Thank you very much for this information. I was looking at those Nokians, but it looks like they must be purchased online...or not at all. Were these a special order for you? I know of no local tire dealers that carry these.

Brian,

Click on "dealer locator" on that Nokian site or here it is:

https://www.nokiantires.com/en/locater.aspx

There should be a dealer within 50-100 miles of you. There were several within 50 miles of me, and I was also able to get the tires special ordered through a local tire store chain.

I highly recommend the Nokians. When I replaced the original crappy Dunlops on my car at 50k miles. I tried 6 different tires at the local tire store chain who had a "30 day or 1000 mile" guarantee. At the time, I was commuting 700 miles per week all conistent highway driving, so I was able to get an accurate measurement of FE within a few days of trhying each tire. I finally stopped taking the recommendations of the salesman and researched and found the Nokians myself. My FE w/ the original Dunlops was 54 - 56 mpg. With the other 6 tires I tried, it was 43 - 48 mpg. With the Nokians it was 52 - 54 mpg. And when the Nokians were almost bald at 80k+ miles, they handled better than the original Dunlops handled fresh off the Honda dealer's lot in 1995. You won't be disappointed w/ Nokians, and in my opinion it's worth going a little out of the way to get these tires.

You may want to call Nokian at 1-800-565-2525 and ask them which tire has the lowest rolling resistance. I called them several times for advice and info when I was researching tires.

Steve

Thanks again, Steve. I see there are quite a few dealers (all STS) in NJ...so I'll check them out.

Did you say your Nokians were the "Vredesteins"? You mentioned the NRT2's being discontinued...so I'm just wondering which Nokians I should ask for when I call the tire dealer.

Brian,

Sorry, no, I probably wasn't clear. Vredestein is a different tire manufacturer, and not well known in the US. They make a tire called the Quatrac 2 which i was going to purchase to replace the worn out Nokian NRT2 tires on my Civic VX (because Nokian discontinued the NRT2 a couple of years ago). I didn't purchase any tires because I sold my VX a couple of weeks ago.

The Vredestein Quatrac 2 is listed as a LRR tire. I emailed Vredestein for some data, and they would not release anything to me. All they said was that the Quatrac 2 has low rolling resistance. Reviews I read from Europe, where they are more common, indicate they rank high in LRR and other performance characteristics too. There are, however, only a few Vredestein dealers in the US. So, after shipping, it'll probably cost you more per tire than if you bought Nokian tires directly from a local dealer.

From my past conversations w/ Nokian (and from my experience w/ 2 separate sets of 4 Nokian tires on my VX), I know the tires are LRR. They are also very lightweight compared to other tires and have great all around performance. That's why I can personally vouch for Nokian tires and would personally go with a Nokian tire.

Brian D. -

The Green Seal report led me here :

https://www.energy.ca.gov/transportat...nts/index.html

Which led me to this document :

https://www.energy.ca.gov/reports/200...-001CRVOL2.PDF

In figure 3 of the above document, there is a cool graph on the increase of FE with increased PSI.

I went to Tire Rack and looked for the highest PSI in your size and found these ($48, 51 PSI, 18 lbs) :

Sumitomo HTR H4
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/Spec.j...e1=yes&place=7

For me, I think the following Continentals will be my next set of tires because they are one size larger than stock, middle priced ($68), rated at 51 PSI and weigh 18 lbs :

Continental ContiProContact
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/Spec.j...um%3D965HR5CPC

Both of these tires are "sister tires" to the ones mentioned in the Green Seal document.

I'm not vouching for them, but I think a "high Max PSI" tire can serve a GasSaver well.

CarloSW2

Carlos,

You may also consider the Sumitomo HTR T4:

https://www.sumitomotire.com/catalogs...at_Rev5.05.pdf

Both sizes 195/65/15 and 195/70/14 are also 18 lbs, 51 psi, and was rated excellent in a Consumer Reports test for low rolling resistance. See here:

https://www.wsj.consumerreports.org/wsjreport140a.html

Why do you want to move up one size larger than stock?

Steve

That CA paper was a pretty sweet find Carlos, thanks! If a tire can gain a mpg per 10psi highway, I wonder what impact under or over inflation has on street? Could be as much as 15-20%...

Steve -

Thanks, I missed that one. I did some more homework on TireRack and they don't offer the T4, only the H4.

On the theory that a larger tire will simulate taller gearing. Lower revs per mile implies the engine does less work to go the same distance (Caveat: being higher off the ground could hurt your Cd). If you up the tire size, you have to adjust your ScanGauge data to display the correct MPG.

But it doesn't look like the revs will be too much different at just one size up. Here's my current breakdown (based on TireRack info) :

1999 Saturn SW2 OEM Tire :
Firestone Affinity Touring -
195/65 TR15 : 35 PSI Max :thumbdown: : 18 lbs :thumbup: : 24.5" diameter : 846 revs per mile

Current (pre GasSavers awareness) tire :
Goodyear Eagle GT-HR -
195/60 HR15 : 44 PSI Max : 20 lbs :thumbdown: : 24.2" diameter : 863 revs per mile :thumbdown:

Replacement Candidates :
Continental ContiProContact -
195/65 HR15 : 51 PSI Max :thumbup: : 18 lbs :thumbup: : 25.0" diameter : 835 revs per mile :thumbup:

Sumitomo HTR T4 -
195/65R15 : 51 PSI Max :thumbup: : 18 lbs :thumbup: : 25.0" diameter : 846 revs per mile :confused:

..... but .... the revs/mile could be an anomaly of the way the manufacturer calculates their revs (or a typo).

If I could fit 205's in my wheel well for even lower revs, the weight would go to 21 lbs, :mad: .


CarloSW2

Carlos,

Yes, I noticed the revs per mile weren't much different which made me wonder why you wanted to move up one size.

Others have posted their experience w/ larger size tires and reported the car is much slower. I've heard the explanation about lower revs, but it still doesn't make sense to me. If it were such an easy way to get better FE, why don't the car manufacturers do this themselves? At some point there must be a penalty for the larger size tire (beyond the car being taller and less aerodynamic).

FYI, I know tirerack doesn't carry the Sumitomo HTR T4. But a number of local tire dealers in my area who carry Sumitomo carry the T4. You may want to check your local dealers. I'm itching for a set for my '95 Civic DX that I just bought, but the car came w/ brand new Firestones (rolling resistance is terrible). So I'm debating if it's worth buying 4 new tires.

Steve

cems70 -

Yeah, I don't really have a good answer, the revs are so close. I guess I would have to take the Spinal Tap defense, "but ... it goes to eleven.".

Now, 18 lb 205's or sub-18 lb 185's might be something to look for.

I am using Tire Rack for mostly research (sorry Matt!). I have had a good experience with Just Tires, so I am giving them dibs on my next purchase. They would have to order them, but if they can get me what I want, I will give them the business. If they can't, I will see what CostCo (nitrogen!) or the other tire shops can do for me.

Unless you have a pal that wants to buy the tires, I would wait until you use up your tread, since I'll bet you have lots of other mods you can do in the meantime. Think of it as "recycling the tires", also a good thing. I got (only?) 52,000 miles out of the GoodYear Eagle GTs, and that is pretty good for me.

One big mistake I made when I traded my 1997 Saturn SC2 for the 1999 Saturn SW2 was that I took the tires and alloys that the SW2 came with. My old SC2 had steel wheels, but I was "pre-GasSaver" ready with racing disks on those wheels, *AND* the tires were newer than the ones that came with the SW2 :

https://home.earthlink.net/~cfg83/gassavers/sc2_1997.jpg

I could be driving the "space wagon" right now if I had kept the steelies :mad: .

CarloSW2