Hypermiling techniques WASTE lots of fuel?!?
 

Take a macro view of it: during the course of a hypermiler's trip, how many other vehicles barrelling along come up on a hypermiler doing extreme P&G or something and due to conditions or them not realizing what is going on, hit the brakes, de-activate the cruise control, slow way down (or not) and accelerate to pass again. Here we have one vehicle- the one that probably would be getting the best FE out of the lot of them at steady state cruise- potentially causing dozens or hundreds of guzzlers to interrupt their gait and guzzle even more... potentially causing more fuel useage than if the "hypermiler" went with the flow of traf f***! Of course if the hypermiler has the road to himself he is saving fuel compared to steady state cruise, or beating on it. :(

Another example: there's one route I regularly use that has me coast a long distance up to a sensor-controlled light (ie. almost always red) to cross one of the major streets in the city.

By tripping the sensor, I can easily stop 8 or 10 cars.

I could take a much less efficient route for myself to preserve the "fleet" mileage by not tripping the red light on the busy street.

Or I could sit at the top of a slight incline before the sensor and wait for another car to come up behind me who would have tripped it anyway, then roll forward to trip the light and blame it on him/her ;)

Hmm. That makes a lot of sense, clench. But, one rapid slow down and one rapid acceleration in that person's day is nothing compared to the bad FE decisions they make all day long. But, they still burn quite a bit of fuel in the incremental slowdown/speedup due to the hypermiler. Hmmm....

Maybe we could make up for it by reaching through peoples' windows to shut off idling cars.

Ah but the hypermiler is causing the cellphone talker to pluse and glide even if they don't want to. The question would be does the 30% or better FE of the hypermiler make up for the 10%-15% decrease of FE of the stomp and go driver.

Z has a point. One scenario where I will consciously control a following driver is approaching a red light where that driver has no other option but to stop also. Eg. there isnt a right turn lane, or a driveway for them to get into, etc.

In that case, I have no qualms about slowing early in an attempt to preserve some momentum for when the light goes green. So I am "forcing" them to save fuel that would otherwise have been wasted.

Of course, if they go apoplectic and take the next opportunity after the light to roar past me at WOT as a way to signal their displeasure, spewing unburnt HC out the exhaust as they pass...

We could atone for our hypermiling sins by surreptitiously inflating other cars' underinflated tires with our 12v compressors in parking lots. Forgive me Michelin Man, for I have sinned...

Boy this thread went off the deep end. LOL

Naw, you need to pulse and glide real slow until someone passes you and they trigger the light. Then you get to roll through the light without stopping :).

Otoh, they are slowing down so the energy needed per unit time is less. Meh, I dunno. I figure it's a wash for their mileage, because I see the same isht happening in the left lanes, like having someone at 85mph come up on someone doing 70mph (aka 5mph over the limit) in the No1 lane. Everyone will likely impede someone, or be impeded by someone, but driving slower doesn't increase this ime. I can go 65-70mph in the far right lane and still have people riding my bumper. Since it's gonna happen right up to 10mph or so over the speed limit, I figure I might as well get better mileage when having people ride me instead of paying an extra 30-50% for gas and still having a car up my ***.

ahh but that would be considered breaking and entering, or trespassing here in the states...and if someone catches you doing it: black eye or cops called:eek:

"Hypermiling techniques WASTE lots of fuel?!?"

Yikes.

I appreciate the thoughtfulness and consideration that went into the concept.
However this is right up there with the claims that slower drivers are unsafe because they foul up the faster drivers' pursuit of rapidity.

Those other drivers need to figure out how to get better FE. Their numbers are their responsibility, not ours. We are setting an example. My car now has a sticker saying "MPG". Short and sweet. This should help answer any following drivers' questions re. "WHY is that guy driving so slow, and how come he's speeding up on the downhill?"

We hypermilers are the leading edge of what should become the new fuel economy patterns. To quote another thread somewhere, I'll modify my driving patterns to suit other drivers when they pay for my gas.

I noticed this on my latest long drive, and was quite surprised. I was on 2-lane back roads, where the speed limit was 65 or 70 mph, and even though I was going 55 or 60, people would just poke along with me even though there were ample passing opportunities. I had expected everyone to just blow around me. Actually, I was hoping that they would pass and then I could draft them. :-) But instead they just hung out with me, not even riding my bumper or anything. Weird.

Maybe some are starting to learn that they can save gas by driving slower.

True that there are plenty out there who don't want to change or learn anything new. But we have to hope and expect that some are "getting on the train" every week. Um, last summer I was driving 70 and enjoying high revving downshifts. This summer I'm enjoying nice coasts and tight s-curves at 40 mph.

I've ridden with enough people to know that some of them simply don't pay allot of attention to their speed. Many don't really intend to exceed the limit, but in a relatively quiet and smooth riding car, it tends to go that direction if left unimpeded. They only realize their error when somebody does slow them down, or during that 'oh-sh*t moment' when a cop is spotted ahead.

Brucepick has it down. We can only be responsible for our own actions, not the actions of others. The only thing you can do is discuss it with anyone that will listen, and the easiest way to convince them is through their wallets. I know it worked for me. After I figured out what it would cost me to get my 96 Tahoe into the 30MPG range, I ditched it for a minivan. Once my old teenagers move out, it goes in favor of a small sports car. Looking to have both vehicles in my family well into the 30s by 2010, at a minimum. This isn't high by this site's standards, but is twice what I was getting just 5 years ago.

IIRC, studies have found that to be true. The safest speed to travel is that of the surrounding traffic. Faster or slower increases your likelyhood of being involved in an accident.

If you slow traffic to the speed limit, that should be no problem! (note - posted before I saw the post above)

I have to admit, I do sacrifice my economy 'for the greater good' if I am going downhill, to turn off a major onto a minor road, with a lorry (=18-wheeler) behind me. I will go up the hill slightly slower than he wants (but still accelerating so he isn't braking), then go downhill at e.g. 45mph, put the indicator on, then accelerate to 60mph, then brake to 3mph and turn when he is significantly behind me. If I didn't do this he would slow from 60-0mph, which is probably enough CO2 emissions to power my car for many miles of normal driving!

yep
 

And let's not forget by choosing certain routes you can easily increase you mpg at the expense of total gas used.

Well I will push my speed 5 over if someone wants to go a little faster but not on the highway unless there is a lot of traffic then you end up getting enough drafting effects to offset the higher speed. Get a couple of trucks cooking down the highway and I will fall in behind them in a second if they are going my way - only a few seconds on the throttle to get up to speed then ride their wake for a while at a few hundred MPG isn't hard to take. With the VVTi engine the P&G doesn't really work in my xB that well only the updown hill stuff where I can hold the speed and throttle steady up the hill and coast down the back side and sometimes the fuel cutoff with a little speed limiting is better than the coasting fuel useage when I have to stop anyway. Got one light that I get that turns green in 10 seconds after a car arrives at it if it hasn't turned recenty so that one I watch from a distance and get someone else to trip it. The trick is to get there in time or I end up waiting longer for it to change again.
If we all could behave ALL the time (I know I don't) we could have a sticker that says . . .

"Drive like me for better MPG!"

people just need to slow down thats about it

I agree 100%.

Almost...they need to slow down, look ahead, THINK and then act accordingly...

THINK? Other drivers know how to think? Even today on my drive in... I was coming up through a 1 lane on the highway (other lane closed for construction) at 55 MPH, a big ol' Dodge Ram Pickup was on my a** the whole way, as soon as we cleared the construction, ZOOM! He went right up to 80. If people only knew how deep the hole they are digging is. Hell, even that they're digging a hole!

It's amazing how many people I meet that say "D*mn the gas prices are high! I wish they would come down" as they fill their Excursion SUV and then hop on the freeway with the AC on at 80. Duh!

theclencher: Thanks for the laugh. Their is a lot of unfortunate truth to this, but I hadn't heard it phrased this way, before.

As far as overall fuel use is concerned, I think it really is a aggregate balance that we need to strive for, considering our safety, other peoples safety, our efforts to economize and potentially it's affect, good or bad, on the economy of other drivers.

What a mouth full! Anyway, in my consideration, if your driving a little slower, but as a result your able to keep yourself and the cars behind you from coming to stomp on it breaking, or acceleration, then I suspect that on the aggregate you are helping them to achieve better mileage than they would if they didn't have someone to pace them. If they decide to jam and get around you, so they can catch up to someone else to follow, then you really don't have any control over that.

Ultimately, you really only have control over what you do and if what you are doing is within reason and is not unduly creating a unnecessary problem for other people, or safety, then I think you can do what ever you wish. If what your doing starts to impede the safety of yourself or others, even if it's just because the yoyo in the SUV get's pissed off, then I think you owe it to yourself, your family and the community as a whole, to not do those things, at that time.

Way to over analyzed!:)

Ya, if there are always people behind you, I think it would not be nice or helpful to do P&G. Just keep a steady speed, and allow people to pass you when they feel like they need to.

I don't think it's as bad as that Clencher. If traffic is that thick and moving smoothly, there's probably a good draft to pick up that would outperform P&G antics. Even if there isn't a draft per se, that much traffic can definately generate a current.

That said, I only do it when there's nobody behind me to hinder.

i'm a east coaster and a frequent traveler on I-95 from nc to south fla. i think trying to roll at 60 mph will get you killed with a 80 to 85 mph norm

Only if you try to do it in the No.1 lane. A similar idea is that some people cruise at ~100mph (which they do), so going 80mph can be pretty dangerous too. The person at 100mph takes longer to slow down to 80mph than the person at 80mph takes to slow down to 60mph.

If you've seen the Autobahn, you know way more extreme speed differences can coexist. It just takes some attention from everyone, along with the idea that whatever speed you want to drive at is OK. Slow drivers are prepared to speed, but fast drivers are prepared to slow down.

I don't think passing takes that much power on freeways, unless you're going 20 under the speed limit. Since I've been there, I assume those cars are limping to the next exit. The main time I get flak for going the speed limit is on 2-lane roads. There's not much you can do there but go steady, and hope they grow some balls and pass you. Mostly they just stick behind you and cruise. These are the roads you could hang a red triangle and go 25 max with perfect authority. If they want to burn fuel zipping past, it's not your problem.

I can see how extreme under-the-limit driving could cause so many to get frustrated that they'd burn lots of fuel. So don't do that... just go as slow as is normal. They would have burned the fuel anyway.

Is is just me, or is anyone else noticing other drivers are starting to slow down. I used to get passed like I was standing still. Now more people are doing the same as I am, 5 MPH under the speed limit.

i'm not surprised
 

I'm not surprised they hung out behind you when you're going slow. It's actually a hypermiler technique: go behind someone going slow for a power in number effect; they'll be the ones who get the finger.

Realize this is an old thread but this is almost hypothetical - not many hypermilers are going to bottleneck traffic as described. I would not and neither would most hypermilers I know. We find ways to go at our rate on less traveled routes, off-peak hours, staying in the right lane.

Invariably, I suspect the ones throwing up the "hypermilers waste's other's gas" are the leadfooted...so you say that if everyone speeds it saves gas? :rolleyes: Oh, and the pack speed just gets faster and faster.

One more thing: If I'm on the rightmost lane and a tailgater has steam out their ears because the two lanes to the left of us are not open in less than two seconds, isn't that kind of stupid?

Look, it's real simple. Push or be pushed. Either you let them push you into worse mpg by speeding or whatnot (and reward them for tailgating so they will be sure to do it more often), or you push back and just drive your own game. Which side of the peer pressure equation do you want to be on?

Even if we did bottleneck, I wouldn't give a rip. I'm in this game to save MYSELF some money, not to save the earth or it's "dwindling" supply of oil. Selfish? Oh you bet. :D

Go, skewbe! Well said.

Good to see ya here, Delta Flyer!

I do my best to drive my own game. They can pass me if they want. On my left. Anyone tailgating me or passing on my right just before their lane ends ... I'm not always nice to those folks.

i'm with ya about saving $, but i like the idea of more people hypermiling to cut pollution and keep the price of fuel down(which adds to the selfish desire to save ME $).

funny how the earth needs "saving" and oil supplies are "dwindling" with several large, untouched deposits in or off the coast of north america alone.

I don't think the majority of hypermilers travel criminally (for lack of a better term) slower than the speed limit in most instances. I think most travel within a few miles per hour of the posted speed limit. Slower acceleration and less braking (counterintuitive) might slow down traffic a bit...but not really hold it up if the hypermiler is timing lights, ect.

A story...the other day going home from work (11 mile trip) a guy in a 4 door Toyota Tacoma was tailgating and darting between other vehicles almost rearending two different vehicles. I just did my best to drive smooth and look ahead for any opportunity to "carry speed" and "drive efficiently". About 6 miles into the route, I was two vehicles behind the Toyota but in a different lane that was traveling faster. By mile 8, I had passed him and saw him look over as my lane went past him down the road. He ended up exiting as the same exit as mine and was now behind me. Did my hypermiling cause him to drive like a fool? Did I cause him to waste time on the road? As with most, he did it to himself...

Exactly :thumbup: We can't be responsible for the conscious actions of others.

In any case, the best part of my city driving is when someone is tailing me, stomps on the gas and passes in another lane... Only to hit their brakes at a stoplight while I slingshot by in the right lane :thumbup: They could have just stayed right where they were, and also shot by everyone that didn't give themselves enough buffer space - saving fuel and keeping lower stress levels :cool:

Really, given enough space ahead of us, we're anti traffic vehicles :p

https://amasci.com/amateur/traffic/trafexp.html

i have contemplated this conundrum quite a bit. If I tromp on the accelerator pulling into traffic, I make a big gaping hole in my FE, but the Eddie Bauer edition Explorer behind me won't have to hit the brakes. Better for my efficient car to take an FE hit than the ecoconsciously challenged SUV behind me, although Skewbe makes a good point. Who knows, maybe in the long run it has a subtle effect on them and they think, hmm... maybe I should just slow down. I think people are slowing down as da gas prices reach for the sky.

MetroMPG: Yeah, that's a doozie. Definitely no excuse for tripping a traffic light that causes a bunch of cars to come to a stop they otherwise wouldn't make. Imagine if you factored in all of the difference in gas they use had they not had to stop for that light into your Metro. If you are doing that on a regular basis you'd prolly go from 60mpg to 35mpg.

This is probably the reason the EPA doesn't recommend everyone do P&G instead of use their cruise for best FE. (among other reason) :p

I think this is a very apt solution. :D

Well, here is what hypermiling did for me yesterday. I was followed for several miles by a MOHP Dodge Ram. When I reached my destination, I was questioned at length about alcohol and drug use. Another trooper arrived after about five minutes. When I asked what I had done wrong, I was told I was driving "abnormally." Apparently driving 10 mph over the limit is normal, so everyone else was okay. On the bright side, I found a new route with fewer lunatics today, and got better mileage.