Threads Ripe For Piling On
 

Hi everyone.

It seems like the new favorite pasttime for this board is ganging up on people who aren't living up to one's personal standards.

I know not everyone can read every thread. So, I started this thread to let everyone know when a there's blood in the water in a certain thread, so that everyone can go pile on.

People who will be singled out and abused include the following:
-People with long commutes
-People who drive SUVs
-People who drive pick-up trucks
-People who just plain ask too many questions
-Others to be named later

So without further delay, I'll get started.

This guy may have been completely run off, but it wouldn't hurt to make sure:
https://www.gassavers.org/showthread.php?t=4248

This thread contains people with SUVs AND people with long commutes:
https://www.gassavers.org/showthread.php?t=4290&page=2

That's all I can find right now. I'll add others as I notice them.

Don't forget this one. It's one of my favorites.

It's amazing how folks come on here and ask questions and their whole way of life is attacked because they don't live up to someone elses standards. Everything except the question is answered. If life was only that black and white. One of the reason I'm not visiting as much any more.

Thanks for posting Bill.

Well the one inescapeable fact about internet discussions is that there will always be people with differing opinions more than happy to offer it in a multitude of ways.

As general rule, I try not post anything that I would not feel comfortable saying to a person's face. So while I may be critical of excessive commute distances and vehicle choices, I wouldn't stand around listening to whining from uncompromising individuals in person either.

I try not to be rude, but I also try to admit it when I am. Your point is well taken Bill, but soft pedalling the truth isn't necessarily helpful either.

And the truth is that "personal lifestyles" can have profound impacts on other living things. Yay that some can and do protest the abuses and the wasting of limited resources by others.

We are all, afterall, interconnected.
https://www.globalcommunity.org/flash/wombat.swf

That is so lame. The wombat is obviously lip synching. Plus everybody knows that wombats speak Klingon anyway.

Oh, I drive a pickup truck and I'm probably to be named later! And Bill, all yer mileage is belong to me. :p

Bill, thanks for bringing this up. Keep it up. When Matt first started this site, I told him that to keep the site effective, this type of thing has to be avoided. I understand that some people may have made bad choices(jobs, homes, cars, etc.) but the fact that they came here to ask for help is a good sign. The guy in the first thread you mention probably won't be back and that is bad. Now he won't be trying to do anything to improve his situation and will probably be totally turned off to the whole FE thing all together. Come on people, guys like this are the ones that need to improve the most and running them off is probably the worst thing that could be done. It's like a doctor with bad bedside manner: Even if the advice the doctor is giving is correct, if it is give with a crappy attitude the patient's natural human tendency is going to be somewhat confrontational and the advice probably won't be heeded. I happen to agree in priciple with everything that was said but am almost to the point of not being proud to be a part of a group that is so hostile in it's delivery of the "advice." Matt and Rick, I haven't seen much of either one of you lately but you may want to address this soon or there may not be much of GasSavers left or at the least, the growth of the site will stop if this is left alone.

can i has yer cristel ballz?


Although, to be fair, I have been an a$$hole consistently in at least one thread, and probably a few posts too. Probably because I get pissy when I feel I'm being misled. Everyone here probably has pet peeves, but I don't think a thread or two will kill a forum. I mean, honestly, there's only so much we can talk about fuel efficiency. Imo, given the wealth of info on the board, nearly any poster can simply search and hopefully find everything they'll ever need. From changing the engine setup, to gearing, to extreme aeromods, and everything in between. Just because we don't have as many new posters doesn't mean the sites dying, it just means we're seeing the people who don't know a whole lot about the subject and/or can't use the search well post, while plenty of other people probably just use the search, Luke.

In anything, the best way to determine how successful the site is would the number of hits/searches per day. And Matt is privy to that... Maybe he'll chime in.

Lol, well its fun reading anyway! I've only been coming round here a few weeks and I've found the search functions to be very useful and have learned a lot here.
I frequent other forums on varying from boating to gaming where feeding frenzy's are common to just plain not tolerated by the moderators. Posts get deleted and subjects locked, etc... Come to think of it I have never noticed anyone with the moderator badge here?

Dax, and rh77 are mods. As well as Matt.

What Mentalic said about not noticing moderators here is what makes this forum unique. It shows that the folks posting on here must have been doing pretty good sofar. Obviously with any group of people with different opinions there has to be a little clash at times or a disagreement, but in the time I have visited this forum I have found it to be very interesting (and at times mind boggling).
Sometimes people get a bit carried away and I think a thread like this reminds everybody enough of the fact that this forum is largely as succesful as it is because someone can come here for help and there will be a lot of people eager to try and help. So after a little reminder like this I think we can mainly agree that this is a pretty cool and unique place to be and that we all like pitching in to keep it that way.

Moderation is for natzis. Free Speech Rules!!!

Really though, arm-chair psychologing aside, not everyone who visits here is serious about saving gas, and I think it is ok to cut the chaffe a bit since you will waste a lot of time and energy for nothing, and produce a lot of misleading posts that folks can pick and choose from to convince themselves that they need do nothing different.

Gas prices dropped, that is why attendance is down, if it is down, we are that selfish. I like the idea of this being a place for people who are serious about saving gas/energy.

If you're still here, good. If we scared you off, that's good too.

When the HP-Junkees board invasion occured, those people were obviously being stupid and not serious about joining the board. However, Hummer - H2 and Blue 03 Civic were. The guy with the Civic could have made a lot of improvements and I hope he stays around!. Even without instant MPG feedback, he could have made a big improvement. Perhaps, if someone has said 'How much do you spend on fuel per month', then we could have worked out how long it would take a Scangauge to 'pay itself back' based on 10-20% improvement simply by having it.

I have always felt that the quality of people on this site is pretty good. That is why the whole Blue 03 Civic thread really shocked me. I still can't figure out how that how conundrum started in the first place.

Personally I wish that people would start doing more experiments though. There is too much discussion and not enough action. People need to start thinking outside the box... myself included.

And yeah, the whole H2 thing was ridiculous. The guy made a mistake. He acknowledges that, and in his original post said that he knows how hated his vehicle is. Even so, he wanted help to try and alleviate some of the damage he made with his purchase. He even went so far as to only use the car when absolutely necessary. I would take positive-thinking H2 driver over a CRX cock any day of the week.

We are all in this together, thus attacking people gets us nowhere.

This was the type of thing I was thinking of. The guy made a mistake, realized it, and wants to try to make the best of it. He would be the perfect person to go back to his H2 buddies and try to enlighten them. I truly hope he and the others don't leave when they need to be here the most.

"The true sign of maturity is the ability to let an insult go unanswered"

Its and interesting tread I have noticed. I certainly pick a few fights here and there but they are never about saving gas and I dont think they are usually about people sucking. I also follow the internet/face to face idea, but then again, I say a lot more to peoples faces then I would on this forum, so there you go.

Iono why this trend has grown up, but I spose its the way things go with the internet and the best we can do is be cheerful when cheer is needed and make sure those who might feel attacked know that they are not in the wrong...

*shrug* I like my bike too much these days, :p

An important thing to remember for future threads...

(1) If someone does a high mileage, and *has* to do it... then if they come here to get better MPG doing the miles they will do anyway, then it is good!. The extreme example is, if someone did 1,000,000 miles per year, then small savings in fuel usage will probably save, overall, more CO2 emissions than most of the rest of the board put together!

(2) If someone drives a 'Super_Ultra_Hummer', which gets 1MPG, and they do 10,000 miles for year. If they can hypermile it to 2MPG, then they will save 5000 gallons per year... And again reduce CO2 by a lot more than the rest of us put together!. If we frighten them away they will go back to 1MPG driving.

Hello -

I agree with the "internet/face to face" thing.

There isn't much reason to knock them when they arrive. If they do any homework and start reading threads, it won't be hard for them to figure out what the majority of GasSavers think of their cars.

However, along with generic useful advice (slow down, get a ScanGauge), there is nothing wrong with telling them that their best bet is to get a second small car for commuting.

If they say they can't afford to have two cars, then show them the math that spells trading the car in for a fuel-sipper down the line.

I always give posters the benefit of the doubt until they prove otherwise.

CarloSW2

I am not in favor of piling on, or driving off anyone who is interested in improving their mileage. However, in each of the instances you have observed, it seems to me that the new members were doing a lot of double-speak because on one hand they claimed they wanted advice and help in getting better mileage, but on the other hand they weren't really interested in listening to someone tell them something they didn't want to hear.

When someone is looking for help or asking for help, but they lay down a whole bunch of ultimateums about what they aren't willing to do, it's like saying they are interested, but only as long as you tell them something they want to hear. That I sort of have a problem with. If they don't really want to know what they can do to improve their mileage, or they really aren't willing to do or consider doing what someone tells them and then they get their noses out of joint, it becomes a little bit of a self fulfilling predisposed offense, before anyone said anything, in the first place.

It seemed to me like these particular folks didn't want to hear what people had to suggest and they took issue to what people did suggest, when they asked. My feeling is that I would rather have people be able to make whatever suggestions they have, if people ask for help, rather than have everyone avoid posting because they are afraid someone might be offended, when those people seem like they were already predisposed to being offended, anyway.

As I indicated earlier, people on this board are more polite than SaturnFans.

Also I'm glad I don't have to be a Global Socialist on The Road to Serfdom to be enthusiastic about saving gas; this may be different from what some have stated above. I'm instinsically cheap, I don't like wasting resources in general (planet, household, employer, whatever), and religiously documenting MPG gives me a great opportunity to flex that undiagnosed-OCD brain muscle!!!

:D

Q: What is the number one most effective way to consume less fuel?

A: Drive less.

Seems to me like that should be where all discussions begin on fuel economy - even if it is only implied the majority of the time.

When considering the cost of a commute, many seem to just think of it terms of fuel consumed vs. miles driven, but what is their time worth? For me, it's $26/hour to start. If I were commuting 35 minutes each way to work every day (a not uncommon commute for many in a large city) , I would be throwing away $26 worth of my time every day vs. living someplace within 5 minutes of work. That's $26 x 48 weeks x 5 days = $6240 every single year. Now throw in an extra few dollars per day in fuel saved and that figure easily approaches $7000 EVERY SINGLE YEAR in savings.

Given that arguement, don't you think it's worth pointing such issues out to people - even if it's not what they wanted to find?

Granted, that assumes that one could be productive and earn a similar wage for the time saved and that living closer to work really is an option, but most people I know would love to make their same pay and have more free time. Commuting long distances is simply a way of selling your worth short and wasting fuel in the process.

Yeah that is one thing that really gets me upset. I am ok with people driving excessively big/fast cars, but I hate to hear about people who drive 50-100 miles (or more) a day to work.

I should also add, that I have always enjoyed gassavers because there never seems to be any Nazi moderation and everybody generally gets along fairly well.

There are MANY excellent reasons to treat newcomers poorly! Keep the great ideas coming! Remember, if they aren't doing what you would do, they are doing it WRONG!

There was definitely some of that going on with some of those newcomers. But was it productive to bullwhip them until they left? Nah. I would have preferred that they had stayed around and figured out for themselves that they were mistaken.

The argument is certainly valid, and should be made. It's just that people kept saying it over and over, in increasingly derogatory ways. Ideas must be exchanged, since that is the point of being here. But people do not need to be beaten up until they give up and leave.

If you were doing something that was hurting someone else, would you care? Would you be defensive if someone tried to point it out to you?

If 2 people pull the trigger on a gun aimed randomly and someone else dies, are they less guilty by half? What if it was millions of people pulling on the trigger (by strings or whatever, work with me here)?

I'm getting the impression you are trying to shame us Bill. :o

There are a huge number of "extreme commuters" https://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...-commute_x.htm
I used to be one. All I can say is I didn't want to be one, and now I pay $425 more in rent every month not to be one. I personally enjoy driving, but the commute was no joy. If I knew about the site I would have been able to save some gas. Maybe even some sanity. But then again, everyone around here thinks that hypermiling is insane.

I don't think people are too brash on these boards. To be blunt and honest, I think a lot of people here are like drones. I know nothing about people except their desire to save fuel. That's all well and great, but it does get a bit boring after awhile. I wish people here displayed a little more individualism sometimes. These thread examples that Bill has pointed out are really actually refreshing in a both a good and bad way. I like to see that these threads don't turn out almost exactly the same as every other thread here, but at the same time, there is no need to crucify an innocent person either.

I have stopped coming here because I think I have taken away all that I can from the site. The same is probably true for a lot of people who have mysteriously vanished over time. I have learned many of the tricks of the trade and have found out most all of the aesthetically pleasing modifications that can be done. Perhaps I am not so much of a fuel saving nerd as some here, but I do like to save money wherver it is reasonable. When people have taken away all that they can here, only the people and the personalities will keep them coming back. I highly doubt that there will be enough vibrance here to keep me posting for a whole lot longer.

No offence to anyone in particular.

If everyone jumped off a bridge wouldn't that include you?

skewbe -

Philosophically, I really do try to be self-aware to the point where that is not an issue. People have different definitions of what "hurting someone else" means. I think I agree with your definition but people aren't going to make the same connection, at least not at first. Over time, some people will see it your way, and other's never will. As far as I'm concerned, if they save gas, then they're a GasSaver.

(I wish that everyone in the USA would just change their driving technique and slowwww-downnnnn. Based on what we are achieving here, It would be a wonder to see.)

I understand, but they aren't going to change if you "attack" them. They are going to go away and not learn how to save gas (aka keep pulling the trigger). And I quoted "attack" because greenhorns won't necessarily know your "voice" on the forums. What may be your "normal banter" may make them defensive.

From my POV, on the Internet, you and I are *only* our words. Written words lack tone of voice, so there is something missing when we communicate this way. I don't know where someone is coming from until they have posted for awhile. I *know* not to be offended by what someone writes off the cuff, but I don't assume that someone else is going to have the same "web learnin" as me.

I went over to the GasSaver Garage and counted about 700 cars. Assuming that there are 10 regular lurkers for every member, that makes about 7700 "regulars". I am actually being generous because many people have multiple cars and there are alot of dead gaslogs in the garage too. I think Matt would know better about the equations of forum membership in relation to how many people are visiting the site.

I hate to say it, but unfortunately, I think we are "ambassadors" at this stage of the GasSavers game :eek: .

CarloSW2

I understand what he's saying in the old "if you saw someone driving off a cliff, would you yell at them to stop" argument. I've subscribed to it myself with respect to, shall we say for the purposes of neutrality, "theological considerations".

However, the way to win people over to your point of view is certainly not to bash them, which I don't think happens much on this board anyway. There are ways to respectfully disagree with others. Unfortunately, in our modern 30-second-CNN-soundbite culture, it's easier just to spout something sensational and inflammatory -- and I'm not excluding myself!

OT: It always cracks me up though how people of certain political persuasions implicitly insult others by referring to themselves as "intellectual" or "erudite".

IMO, there are PLENTY of ways to keep the board fresh, such as publishing thoroughly-documented studies (like someone else mentioned), although no one seems to have time.

Nah, you guys are the ones who deserve the respect. Someone who goes away after a little grilling isn't half the man that those of you who do this stuff day in and day out for months are. I would just like for new people to be brought in in a way that helps ensure their retention and helps ensure that they at least receive some benefit. Maybe they aren't willing to be terribly serious, but if they can improve their mileage by 2-5%, then we all benefit. Anyway, I think I'm done. Thanks for participating.

As usual, there are about a gazillion viewpoints, and they're all valid.

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
By the same token if you're in the kitchen, don't throw around hot water and knives, because we're all supposedly working together.

As to suggestions that Hummers or Jeep Cherokees or whatever could be traded in for something else - shucks, we'd be remiss if we didn't suggest changing vehicles. If we start name calling though, that's not how we'd want to be treated ourselves.

As for hypermiling such beasts - I'm sure one could. Seems like 40-50% over the EPA's current (recently revised) numbers is reasonable for most vehicles without extensive mods, so a 10 mpg thing would maybe get about 14-15 and a 15 mpg thing would maybe get 22ish. That would be better than non-hypermiled. And for some folks it would be the best option. Buying a "new" used car and getting it roadworthy usually costs significant money, so driving what you have often makes a lot of sense.

My $.02

This has already been covered
 

The truth is, there are very few things you can do to make your car more efficient. After that, you get a bunch of new people asking the same questions over and over again. The great thing about a board like this is that if you have people who are good mentors, they can help the newbies through those initial changes. But if you have the wrong people setting themselves up as gurus, but who do not have the patience and character of a real guru,they just drive people off.

I first noticed the snarkiness when I asked a sincere question about fuel additives. "That's already been discussed."

Well, it might have been discussed by you 2 or 3 months ago, but it's my first time to discuss it. It's even worse if somebody with way too much time on their hands answers every newbie question with "That's already been discussed." The thread dies after that. The guru has spoken.

A real guru will allow people to discuss ideas and let them come to their own conclusions. I would only jump down somebody's throat if they were suggesting something illegal or really dangerous. Otherwise, it's not the end of the world. Some people learn by doing. Don' deprive them of that experience. It's not always a shortcut to give all the answers. If we do nothing but jump all over people for asking questions (even if it's a stupid question to me) they eventually stop asking questions and just leave.

m

You must have read "How to win friends and influence people." I loved that book. But it was a disappointment for me that nobody else seemed to understand the subtleties of relationships after that.

There is a way to disagree respectfully. But it takes practice and patience. Patience is not well understood in our sound clip culture. Unfortunately, knowledge without character leads to snarkiness. Then you have the anonymity of the 'net, and all hell breaks loose.

I guess there should be a warning that comes with every computer, kind of like when you play paintball. "Enter at your own risk."

After all is said and done, though, there is no substitute for a thick skin.

m

Well, my wife drives a Navigator and I have a long commute. So, flame away! :p

Your insistence on shoving your ideas down others throats by "preaching" only turns others off, never brings them to your way of thinking, and says more about YOU then them.

Why are you so...ah....religious about this?

Calm down and be civil...otherwise your attitude will push people in the OPPOSITE direction that you want them to go...hello?!?