K&N Air Filters/Synthetic oil.
 

Ok. I saw in the "sticky where K&N air filters were busted for aiding fuel economy.....I think I also saw where the syn oil was busted.....I got an additional 40 MPT out of my sunfire after changing to syn oil and installing a k&N...Help I am confiused.

I think both would contribute to a very small increase if any. The only problem I have with K & N air filters, is that their filtration is worse than a regular paper air filter. So more air + less filtration = shorter engine life. As far as synthetics go, the oil is more uniform and tends to break down slower than convetional. So better oil + good filtration (oil and air) = longer engine life. Also if your running a synthetic you should see what the ACEA number is on it, so you can do extended oil drains.

Borrowed from the ACEA European Oil Sequences 2007

A/B : gasoline and diesel engine oils
A1/B1 Oil intended for use in gasoline and car + light van diesel engines specifically designed to be capable of using low friction low viscosity oils with a High temperature / High shear rate viscosity of 2.6 to 3.5 mPa.s. These oils may be unsuitable for use in some engines. Consult owner manual or handbook if in doubt.
A3/B3 Stable, stay-in-grade oil intended for use in high performance gasoline and car + light van diesel engines and/or for extended drain intervals where specified by the engine manufacturer, and/or for year-round use of low viscosity oils, and/or for severe operating conditions as defined by the engine manufacturer.
A3/B4 Stable, stay-in-grade oil intended for use in high performance gasoline and direct injection diesel engines, but also suitable for applications described under A3/B3.
A5/B5 Stable, stay-in-grade oil intended for use at extended drain intervals in high performance gasoline and car + light van diesel engines designed to be capable of using low friction low viscosity oils with a High temperature / High shear rate viscosity of 2.9 to 3.5 mPa.s. These oils may be unsuitable for use in some engines. Consult owner manual or handbook if in doubt.

i am sorry i dont follow you there.. its not like he is using any kind of forced induction...

The K & N Air filters allow more air to enter and filters less than a paper air filter. So if air flow goes up so does air contaminents. In this situation you would need better filtration to compensate for more air. Since the K & N air filter does not offer this than your engine will suffer with particles. Even though it's at the micron level, it's still not good. Hope I cleared it up.

I actually took my own advice this summer and pulled out the K&N. Sold it to someone with the same kind of motor who cares more about WOT airflow than I do.

I stuck the stock paper filter back in the car.

It proves nothing to say this, but the OEM filter was in use for the majority of the 104 mpg driving of the last fill-up.

Whoever wrote that about synthetic oil was wrong, that's all. Reduce friction, improve efficiency. That's well documented elsewhere. I use the thinnest synthetic I can get away with, in the engines, transmissions, power steering, rear end, etc, and that does work.

As for K & N air filter, that certainly isn't going to help mpg unless you happen to be replacing a badly plugged paper filter with it.

If synth was proven to improve efficiency over equivalent weight dino oil, you'd better believe the oilco's would be touting it in their marketing. They're not.

Its ability to improve efficiency applies to a very narrow range of temperature-dependent circumstances (ie cold weather starts), and even there the improvement is tiny.

yesterday I had my car parked in an area that was dusty, the entire inside and outside of the car is covered in this fine dust, it's fine enough that I'm sure it would have passed right thru a K&N filter, this is based off what I've seen while rebuilding carburators on motorcycles with K&N filters, because of this I have a foam air filter with hi-tac filter oil, my intake is clean enough to eat off.

I'd go by mpg for the tank otherwise how can you fill the same each time to compare accurately using miles per tank? In other words error could account for some of the difference you are seeing depending on how you fill up.

Over in the performance world K&N filters aren't liked. Too much dust found on the wrong side of the filter for people who care about their machines. Also, if you overoil the filter when cleaning it, the oil will build up on the MAF and cause mileage/performance problems. Not good. Those who care about their machines would rather run a paper filter, and modify it to use a larger filter, than run a K&N filter and have their engines sandpapered. K&N might be good on a racing engine, but I'll never run another one after my experiences with them.

Even if the FE improvement fall short, you can still easily run twice as long with good synthetic oil. So you might not save money at the pump, but you will when you change your oil...

I picked up my M1 0w-20 and Wix filter today for the MZ3's first oil change.

Screw the K&N

I'll keep running my M1 at 10k mile OCI's or better.

psy

I like that Mobil 1 is finally pushing for extended oil drains using the extended performance oil line. The only thing that I don't like is that if your car is still under warranty than you have to follow the oil life sensor or owners manual. But if it's not under warranty, your covered for 15,000 miles or 1 year. Does this even make sense? Also it says if your operating under sever conditions to change your oil as stated in the owners manual. I think it's so they can weasil out of paying up, by saying your car was used under severe conditions so your SOL. Here's the warranty info for Mobil 1 Extended Performance.

This is a limited warranty covering the Mobil 1 Extended Performance lubricant you purchased. ExxonMobil warrants its lubricants to be free from defects and will replace any Mobil lubricant that is defective. For vehicles covered by a warranty, follow the vehicle's oil life sensor or the oil change interval recommended in your owner's manual. Follow your owner's manual if the vehicle is operated in any of the following severe services: racing or commercial applications including taxis, limousines, etc.; frequent towing or hauling; extremely dusty or dirty conditions; or under excessive idling conditions. If your vehicle has exceeded the duration of the manufacturer’s warranty, ExxonMobil warrants that the Mobil 1 Extended Performance lubricant you purchased will protect your vehicle’s critical engine parts from oil related failure for 15,000 miles or 1 year, which ever comes first. If not, provided the engine was serviceable at the time the oil was installed, Exxon Mobil will have your vehicle repaired and replace the oil at no cost to you.

so what you really mean is ;)

Its all lawyer speak. I run 0w-20 and 5w-20 at 10k mile changes,,, no problem. Just whiz right thru warranty. I may go to extended. But I just bought 8 quarts of 0w-20 for $5.00 a qt. at Walmart. Get one more quart and that 20k to 24k miles on two oil changes for my new MZ3. I need to get stocked back up on oil. The wifes Accord is due for its oil change and tranny service....

That's exactly what I mean, but I had to throw in the more air thing because that's what K & N is intended for, so I think if they didn't allow more air to enter it would filter the same as a paper filter. Who knows.

psyshack:

The only thing I don't like about the regular Mobil1 0W-20 is that it doesn't meet ACEA standards according to the website, but on the bottle it might so correct me if I'm wrong. The 0W-30 5W-30, and 5W-20, meet ACEA 1 standards. The 10W-30 meets ACEA 1/5. I'm almost positive that the 5W-30meets ACEA 5 standards.

That would only be for those that cleaned them! I have a cheap knockoff, and it has like ~75,000 miles on it. Iv cleaned it once. So really its just like anything, theres always a trade off. I told my brother that my filter does very little for my FE, he didnt get it either. Then I told him it doesn't really matter much at 1700 rpms...

There is a trade off. To each his own I guess.

popimp

On the bottle

ACEA
A1/B1
ILSAC GF-4
API SM,SL/CF

All I know is Ive been using M1 for years. My Ranger doesn't like it. Its the only car / light truck Ive had that disliked M1. For some reason it likes to burn it and rattle.

So until some lab rats can tell me its for sure not the oil it use to be. I guess I will keep using it. I think its the best off the self oil available in my area. And I will keep running on the long OCI's

psy

after i took out my k&n my #s went up really easy. it was actually killing my mileage. it went up from NEVER being able to beat 30 to way over 30

Wow, I'm glad I read this thread. Any paper filter brands you would receommend?

On second thought, is it possible you guys aren't cleaning your K&N's properly? I usually clean mine with every oil change. I'm pretty sure mine is doing its job, because during the winter time when there was a lot of salt dust everywhere, the thing would plug up and I'd have to clean it often.

Also, I'd have to double check, but last time I looked my wife's Saturn (paper filter) had more dust "on the wrong side of the filter" than mine does -- a very thing coating of fine particles down the length of the intake snorkel. I don't remember seeing that on mine.

I think FRAM is pretty good and readily available. I use Amsoil EA Air filter. Their supposed to be good for 100,000 miles or 4 years. Easy cleaning using shop air or a vacuuming no oils no mess.

Hum
 

I bone dry the car until I can put in atleast 13.5 gallons. Thats how I am calculating Miles per tank. I know I could just divide, but.......im lazy like that.
I can only comment on my experience with the K&N-I did research online and decided to try it.
I am running the prestone platinum synthetic oil at 5w30. Supposedly oil change every 75k. We will see.....

psyshack -

I just switched to Wix on your advice. My K&N seemed Ok, but all the other posts in this thread make me wonder.

CarloSW2

The very best Syn Oil in the world will improve MPG by only a slight amount, almost negligable, to be sure. I've proven it for myself, as have many others.

I've been splitting the difference between medium/low cost dino oil and high end synthetic. Been using WalMart synthetic, in the recommended weight for my car (10-30) it's about $3/qt.

I figure it's likely not as good as Mobil One or other top shelf synthetics - but definitely should be better than cheapo $1.50-$2.00/qt dino oil. FWIW. I used to change it out at 3K miles but I hope/plan to go 4K as long as it doesn't look nasty.

And change out a couple qt. of auto trans fluid at the same time, this gives me a rolling change of tranny fluid so I don't have to pay major $$ to change it all out at once. That way I think I can afford synthetic tranny fluid.

I will only be using the Wix for the first oil change. Will more than likely move on ti PureOne for the second oil change. You cant go wrong with wix oil or Air filters.

Very good move to work with the tranny fluid. On our cars I do a tranny service every 3rd oil change. Be it AT or MT. The service coming up on the wifes Accord will be a oil and filter change, 3qt tranny fluid change and filter. Then will do a rad. fluid drain and replace. Will also do a power steering fluid drain and fill. Will also do a full inspection. And rotate the tires.

Transmissions are really overlooked bad.

psy

I thought there was no tranny change for MT, that you just filled "clutch fluid" sometimes which was realy justbrake fluid. Thats what I heard. My OLD retired Altima MT was not changing gears and I put brake fluid in container that someone told me was clutch fluid. After that clutch was OK. Please enlighten me.

Is this necessary. I never heard of people flushing and replacing brake or power steering fluid. Is this something that I should do? I can do VERY BASIC maintenance like oil/air/ filter and spark plug/wires changes but thats about it. Once changed the brakes on 1983 Corolla but those cars were so easy to work on.

ALSO: Ive heard that tranny fluid in pan is about 1/3 of your total, so changing tranny fluid in pan often is a good idea unless you want to do complete flush for $$$$ at dealer or service station. I have an idea to change a higher percentage. Let me know if this is good idea or is this stupid idea that will kill my car:
1. Remove tranny fluid from pan so you have 2/3 tranny fluid left.
2. Drive car around the block so now 2/3 tranny fluid spreads out and 1/3 falls into pan
3. Remove tranny fluid from pan that just populated into pan from the drive
4. Fill car with new fresh tranny fluid. You have just changed 55% of fluid instead of 33%

MATH 1/3 fluid removed initially, then 1/3 of 2/3 (actually 2/9) removed. Therefore youve removed 1/3 + 2/9 = 3/9 + 2/9 = 5/9 ~ 55.5%
These numbers assume 1/3 tranny fluid is in pan and 2/3 remains in car.
I know there was a user who did three back-to-back tranny changes over an hour but each time he replaced 1/3 tranny fluid with new fluid and reran the process. He knew he was wasting some brand new tranny fluid on the second and third cleaning but it was still a cheaper process than going to a service center.

Last question: would it be possible to vacuum ALL the tranny fluid yourself using some kind of liquid vacuum for cars that is reasonably priced. I know that they DO make some liquid extraction units for $50-100+ but I think they only remove liquids that they are actually in contact with (A tube is inserted in pan and remove whatever is in there), but it seems a tranny FLUSH would need a high powered vacuum type machine that can SUCK fluids out.

I did some major math along that vein. I only did it for the capacities in my car for tranny and p/s fluid. Had to assume that whatever comes out is a true mix of what's in the car, not mostly old or mostly new. Anyway, for tranny fluid, 7.8 qt capacity, 8 x 2 qts changed = 90.65% new fluid. 7 x 2 qts changed = 87.43% new. It looks a lot better after 6 x 2 qts.

Power steering fluid, four changes of everything I can suck out of the reservoir bottle = 90% new fluid.

StanleyD

MT trannys use either a gear type lube or a AT tranny type oil. And seeing that most hold 2 to 4 qt. I choose to change them out every 3rd oil change just like a AT.

I forgot to mention I will do the brake fluid in the Accord when I rotate the tires. Reason being is brake fluid and clutch fluid attracts moisture. Over time this moisture collects in the bottom of master cylinders, slave cylinders and calipers. The collection of this water tends to pit out the bottom areas of the cylinders. With the advent of plastics being used now days in master cylinders the pitting isn't so much of a issue with them. But at this time I take a moment to inspect the master cylinder. Some of the plastic bodied master cylinders tend to deform. They can bulge in the high pressure areas. I measure this area and note it in my logs. If two years later that number has changed for the worse. I will then replace the master cylinder.

If you've ever replaced a steering rack or gear box you will find they can get in awful shape. The fluids and pumps take a beating also. So every two years I change there fluid.

The way I do this is jack the car up just a bit. Wheels still touching the ground. I then take off the return line from the pump and drain the fluid from the pump and the rack. Then I get in the car and turn the wheel full lock to full lock. Reattach the hose refill the system. Bleed it out and do it all again. Then refill the second time and call it good. If the fluid that came out of the rack itself is clean. I mite bump it to a four year service at that point. If its really nasty looking. It might go on a one year service. Of note: Fords have some of the worse power steering pumps in the world. They are very sensitive to the fluid in them. So I do them once a year. My Ranger is do right now for this service.

So basically I do engine oil every 10k miles. Tranny fluid/oil every 30k miles. Then do all the other fluids every two years. I rotate tires every 10k miles.

This works out to two oil changes a year, tranny service every 1.5 years and full service every 2 years. Give or take a few months here and there.

psy

WOW, very good. I need to have someone like you doing maintenance on 98Camry. I do oil every 10K and I MEAN to do tranny every 30K (Im always late cause I go to dealer/shop), but now Im thinking about doing the tranny myself. Its too damned. Other than that I never look at other fluids. I had to top off brake fluid cand power steering cause they were low earlier this year but thats it. I will think about flushing them from now on maybe ever third oil change like you do. Right now Im even low on windshield fluid.

Thanks for info and advice :)

Except for the ones that use motor oil, right?

I've heard of moisture being a problem with DOT-5 silicone brake fluid, but DOT-3/4 fluid is hygroscopic - It absorbs moisture, even from the air... That's one of the reasons why master cylinder reservoirs are O-ring sealed. You would need to completely saturate the brake fluid before water would stand under it, if it will at all. Spilled brake fluid can be washed clean with water. That suggests to me that you could possibly keep adding water to brake fluid until you have more water than fluid - you would have brake fluid dissolved in water, not the other way around.
I'm not saying that changing your brake fluid regularly is a bad idea - water content can drasticly change the fluid's boiling point, and likely affect the longevity of brake system seals.

I've never seen a plastic bodied master cylinder... Only steel (cast iron maybe?) and aluminum. Admittedly, I haven't been looking for them... Could you list a few models with plastic MCs so I can look for them in the junkyard?

IMHO yes.

I don't think it's likely to improve FE, but both are inexpensive to do (unless some mechanic soaks you on labor), and both can make a dramatic difference in how the car performs.

And from personal experience, I can tell you how useful each can be, as I've done both to my wife's Civic (my CRX appears to have manual steering, but I still changed the brake fluid on both cars). New fluid just seems to make both (power steering, and brakes) run MUCH smoother. And this seems especially true of brake fluid. Every car we've tried new brake fluid in (even using the "turkey baster method", see below) has had a VERY NOTICEABLE improvement in the quality of braking, and in one vehical the brakes went from barely useable to quite respectable just by replacing the brake fluid!

BTW:
Based upon a recommendation over on the BITOG forums, I use Valvoline Synpower Brake fluid ( https://www.valvoline.com/pages/produ...asp?product=51 ), because it's noticeably better than DOT-3 (or even DOT-4) fluid, is compatible with those fluids (i.e. no need for a complete brake flush), and it's both reasonably easy to get in the stores and reasonably inexpensive. There are better (specialty) brake fluids out there, but the Valvoline stuff is amazingly good for the price and availability.

NOTE:
If you don't want to pay a mechanic to change your brake fluid, then get a cheap "turkey baster" in the dollar store, and use that to suck all the brake fluid you can out of the place you add the brake fluid. You can then put in fresh brake fluid, replacing the fluid you sucked out (don't ever use that turkey baster for cooking, keep it for your car). This "turkey baster method" is considerably less effective than a full "brake flush", but it is still much more effective than doing nothing. And (unlike a full brake flush), the "turkey baster method" can be done by virtually anyone (i.e. doesn't require a skilled mechanic)...

If you do it that way, you'll miss the fluid in the lines and brake slave cylinders at each wheel. I agree, it's better than nothing, as the new fluid will eventually mix in with the old, replacing some of it. Though, doing a brake system flush is within the grasp of the average person - you don't need any preticularly special or expensive tools, just the know-how, a little common sense for basic safety (don't crawl under a car only supported by a jack, ect.) and a desire to try something new.
So, here's the know-how... You'll have to supply the common sense and sense of adventure. :)

Unless ABS cars are drasticly different, all you need to properly flush a brake system (the same process as bleeding air out of it) is:
- Two people
- Box-end wrenches of the proper size for your car's bleeder screws
- A ~2 ft. length of clear tubing that fits on the bleeder screws' barb
- An empty soda bottle
- A quart or so of brake fluid
- Your car's jack and lug wrench

First, you want to keep the brake fluid level in your master cylinder reservoir between the low and full lines. If it drops too low, you'll pull air into the brake system and have to start the bleeding process over again.

Pour an inch or so of brake fluid in the bottom of the soda bottle. You just need enough to keep the end of the clear tubing covered. Slip your box-end wrench onto the first bleeder screw, attach one end of the clear tubing to the screw's barb and put the other end in the brake fluid in the soda bottle.
You'll probably have to remove the wheel to reach the bleeder screw - check your owner's manual for instructions on proper jacking and removing the wheel. Which bleeder screw you start with probably depends on the vehicle, but in the case of CRXs, you start with the wheel furthest from the master cylinder (the passenger rear wheel). From there, you go to the diagonally opposite wheel (driver's front wheel), the remaining rear wheel (driver's rear) and the remaining front wheel (passenger's front).
It's done this way because CRXs (and Civics I imagine) use a dual diagonal brake system - two separate brake circuits powering diagonally opposite wheels. If one circuit fails, you still have a front and rear brake to stop you (in theory anyway). If both braking wheels were on one side, the car would swerve in that direction when you apply the brakes, so they're on opposite corners instead. Anyway, this isn't a strictly Honda site, so I'll stop there. :)
Back to the bleeding/flushing. You have your tube attached to a bleeder screw, and stuck in the soda bottle with a little brake fluid in the bottom. Have your assistant apply constant pressure to the brake pedal. Use your wrench to loosen the screw a little.
The screw may be stubborn if it's been a while since anyone's done brake work... Make sure you use the loop "box" end of the wrench, and that it's all the way on the hexagon portion of the screw. The crescent end can actually bend out slightly under alot of force, applying alot of stress to just the points of the hexagon, rounding them off. Removing a rounded-off fastener can be a major pain. If you're buying wrenches to do this job, get 6-point box end wrenches, rather than 12-point, if you can. The more wrench in contact with the fastener, the less likely it is to round-off.
Anyway... pressure on the pedal, loosen the bleeder screw. Brake fluid should come out of the screw and flow down the tube into the bottle. Have your assitant call out when the brake pedal reaches the floor. Close the bleeder screw (tighten it), and tell your assitant to release the pedal. Make sure they know not to release the pedal before you say so, or you will pull air back into the system (a not-good thing).
Keeping the end of the tubing submersed in fluid minimizes the amount of air that gets pulled back in if you mess up, but a little bit still gets pulled in through the bleeder screw threads unless the screw is closed. It's not a big deal if you miss closing the screw once in a while - the air should get expelled on the next cycle, but it's counter-productive, so try to keep it to a minimum.
Once the pedal is released, have your assitant apply pressure again and repeat as above.
It's not as tedious as the description makes it sound - you just need to pick short commands to call back and forth and get a rhythm going. Assitant: "Up." (applying pressure, open the screw), You: "Open." (opened the screw), Assitant: "Down." (pedal is at the floor), You: "Closed." (closed the screw, release the pedal), repeat. Remember to keep an eye on the fluid level in the master cylinder reservoir, and top it up as necessary.
Watch the fluid going down the clear tube. If you were bleeding the brakes, you would be watching for air bubbles - once the bubbles stop and you get just fluid, you would move on to the next wheel. Since were flushing the system, you're watching for clean brake fluid. Once you get clean fluid, close the bleeder screw and move on.
Each time you finish a wheel, or any time all the bleeder screws are closed, the brake pedal should feel solid. If the pedal sinks, you've got a leak some place... One of the bleeders may not be closed all the way. If it feels spongy, you've got air in the system. A little bit of give is normal due to the rubber brake lines at each wheel, preticularly once the engine is on and the brake booster is working, but if you bleed all four wheels and have more give than you're used to, you need to go back and bleed the system again.

This was an interesting article and test of the impact of switching to synthetic motor oil and basically says again that synthetics are great for the engine and for severe conditions, just don't expect it to make your fuel economy change any degree - except for maybe the first couple of minutes on a frigid morning.

https://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jk/at_001121.htm