What would it take to make small cars desirable?
 

What would it take to make small cars desirable for the US public?

My perception of this is that Americans prefer more "roll-on" torque than other markets, meaning that in any given gear when you punch it there is an expected amount of power. In other markets where smaller engines are offered, the drivers iether do not demand the power because they have few or no interstate like roads, or the drivers accept that they must downshift to get the power they need for these situations.

The US has long since had big engined vehicles and automatic transmissions. Our fast freeways and lifestyles reflect our preference for these types of vehicles. To get the public inteterested in smaller engines that must be "worked" a little more to produce the required power requires an incentive and a change in thinking. I think small, fun to drive cars in almost every price range is the key.

After the hangover from the generally dull 4cyl cars of the '70s, the '80s "hot hatch" cars were the hot new thing. One example, the '83 VW GTI made about 100hp in a sub 2000lb car, was fun to drive, good for the day 30+ mpg, and practical. Others evolved thier platforms in all sorts of vairants and eventually led up to our current import tuner market.

So now small fun to drive cars are often considered kid or tuner cars, and don't appeal so much to as wide a market as they should.

So, what would it take to get your Mom/Dad/Uncle/Aunt into a smaller fuel efficient car? The Fit/Versa/Caliber concept seems like it might work, but they don't seem to quite hit the mark as FE is disapointing for the implied economy they should return.

So if you ran GM or Ford or Toyota or Honda, what would you do to get more of the public into smaller cars?

I don't think that small cars are gonna be popular any time soon. It seems to me that the car one drives is an important status symbol or way of expressing oneself in the US. I don't think it has anything to do with the fact that the US would have 'faster' roads. In a country like Germany where you can go as fast as you can on the Autobahn, small cars are very common.
I'm not saying that cars aren't status symbols in Europe as well, it seems however more so in the US. Plus there is a notion here that a small car is not 'manly' whereas a man in other parts of the world doesn't have a problem at all to cruise around in a small car (as long as there are some nice rims on it of course) :)

So all in all I think that things might turn around some if the gas prices get up to say 8 or 9 dolars, but more important if small cars are not conceived anymore as unmanly, unsafe and some other things starting with 'un' :)

Over $10 gas for the foreseeable future

Replace the state and federal income taxes with $8.00 per gallon gasoline and diesel taxes.

sometimes I wish there was a premium tax put for big gas guzzlers so that the rest of us do not have to suffer from other people's thirst for gas and the ensuing rise in gas prices.

i was in texas this past weekend for work and i was so shocked by all the big car rolling around. trucks, SUVs, 8cylinder beasts... while i see a ton of civics in california, i barely managed to see ten during my whole trip.

the worst part is that tiny little women often drive a gigantic truck or suv all by themselves. the auto industry has done a great job at marketing them to people... i have to give them that. i for one am not that gullible but the majority of the people in our society is.

Marketing.
Add the 'cool' factor.
If you notice what kind of image that a Geo Metro has vs. a Mini Cooper, the Mini is considered 'cool', while the Metro is considered ... well you know.
Marketing can also make an ugly car 'cool' and people will call it ' funky styling ' vs. 'ugly styling'.
Make something considered 'cool' to the younger crowd and people will shun common sense. They will look past the obvious and buy it anyways thinking it will make them 'cool' as well.
There are a lot of ugly cars and trucks on the road that people think are cool looking ... because they were told that they should feel that way.
Movies and the media have given the small cars like the Metro a wimpy, nerdy image.
Also I might add similarly,motorcycles like Harleys and Katanas have a 'cool' image to them that you won't find in mopeds.
I think a lot of it has to do with the way mopeds have been portrayed in the media.
With motorcycles, a lot of that macho sex appeal image stems from the fact that here is a person that is willing to be daring and take chances by doing something dangerous.
Although the person on the scooter is taking the same risks as the person on the harley or rocketbike, ( in fact far more due to lack of acceleration ) the fellow on the scooter is seen as a wimp that would be frail The other fellow is seen as a strong bully type of person that will go the extra mile to survive - something desirable to women.

Another thing about the Mini that makes it cool is that it is sold through BMW dealerships.
It's like having two identical pairs of butt ugly sunglasses - one with a generic name and one with Gucci stamped on the side.
Insantly the Gucci glasses are considered 'cool' with their 'bold retro styling'
while the other are sneared at and mocked.
Marketing can sell anything.

( Not directing this at Minis at all by the way. I actually like them - despite their brick like .Cd figures . )

Actually there is a $25,000 tax write-off for companies that buy larger size SUVs !
The larger the weight of the vehicle, the more they can write of on their taxes.
I seem to remember upwards of $50,000 or more.
How's that for backwards laws !
Also, they can claim this each year that they own the vehicle.

Welcome to Texas where every third car is a truck... a BIG truck !
( I too have noticed that the majority of Hummer H2 drivers are small women with kids. Sold on safety. If you'll notice, one of the colors for Hummers is even school bus yellow ... not that it means anything.
Also I can't blame these women for wanting to protect their kids. I'd do the same if I were them.)
I just have to shake my head at the wastefullness of it all though.
A lot of people get angry at Hummer drivers for their bad gas mileage, not taking into consideration that here in Texas, Dodge 'doullie ' pickups are more common than weeds and get even less gas mileage than Hummers do !
Ask a little lady why she needs one and you'll almost always hears something like " So I can pull my horse trailer or a boat. " O.K. that's fine ... but why do they have to drive it down the street just to go get a milkshake ?
Image. Image is everything. People don't want to be seen in a small car because it makes them appear weak. It's the smallest people that drive the biggest trucks.

I might add that there is a gas guzzler tax, but I think it only applies to cars that cost a certain amount ( Like a Ferrari )

I think we all agree that more expensive gas iether from taxes or plain expensive oil will get more people to smaller cars. But what would successfully get people into smaller cars now, rather than $5 gas?

Nerds has good points with the cool factor and the safety factor points, these have been prime sales motivators for decades, especially the safety one. If marketing can get around all obstacles, what would be some cool yet safe enough concept or foreign market cars with the cool factor to be sucessful in the US?

Actually, there is a gasguzzler tax. My father looked into buying a viper the other year and I remember him talking about it.

We need obese cars to carry our obese people. I dont see the SUV dying anytime soon.

I think it is total bs to say that the american public doesn't want fuel efficiency. We have come to expect a certain degree of performance/acceleration and safety from our cars to be sure, but it is the manufacturers who are not delivering. Here's the car I would design and build if I were in charge of a major manufacturer:

- Basic sedan or hatch/wagon.
- Four doors, seats 5
- 1.3/1.4 liter engine 85-95 hp
- 6 speed manual tranny with typical gearing for 1-5 and 6 being the highway gear that puts the overall final drive ratio at approx 2.25:1
- 2,200 - 2,400 lb. curb weight
- 4-5 star crash ratings
- 0.25 drag coefficient (same as Insight, not hard to do)
- offered in base, no frills model
- starts at $15k, same as a civic or corolla.

EPA MPG would easily be 40 city / 50 highway. This is such a no-brainer, it would sell like crazy, and there isn't a single manufacturer doing it. Why not!!?? I say it's because they want us to think we have to pay $20k+ for the "fuel efficient technology" of hybrids. If they offered the car I just spec'd then guess what would happen to prius and civic hybrid sales and their profits? :thumbdown:

I have a recent posting that compares gear ratios in hybrids vs non-hybrids, and what I've found leads me to believe that the manufacturers are deliberately witholding a very basic fuel saving concept from their "economy" line ups: https://www.gassavers.org/showthread.php?t=5204

With the slow attrition of the truck based SUV the next logical place for profits is hitting the green crowd. They are used to paying a premium for green-ness. If a broader market is desired for efficient cars then they've painted themselves in a corner. How do you explain to your customers that just paid $24k for a hybrid that the new basic little car can do about the same FE for less. The hybrid mfrs have gone down a road that will be hard to retrace. But with all due respect, they need a gimmic to start getting us fat Americans out of fat vehicles.

The saying goes that there are little profits in little cars, big profits in big cars. I'm guessing that hybrids are turning this upside down. Maybe there are good profits in good designed efficient cars, it saved VW and Chrysler.

Though I don't yet know how you'd get a 5 star crash rating with a 2200-2400 lb car, if that is doable the rest is pie. Cut out the uneeded foo foos and just give us a well designed car.

An example: My boss was looking for a new basic full size truck, rubber floor mats, vinyl seats, 6cyl, 5spd, etc. He wants the size for hunting/fishing. After shopping he came back pissed. "Who the hell pays $30,000 for a damn pick-up? All they have are damn womanized trucks nowdays!"

He ended up buying a good used one.

In Canada, Mercedes sells the B200 and Acura sells a version of the Civic.

People want quality, even in small cars. One area where many small cars have turned people off is the whole winter HVAC situation. That's one area where the standard cabbed V8 pickup truck sets the bar. Small cars should be much better than they are, but they are built as low cost cars. As a result, it's rare to see a small car with all it's seats filled on a cold winter day without the insides of the windows all frosted.

well, way i see it is this: generally, 4cyl cars have been the economical point A to point B kinda cars, usually not to fast either. not too many bells and whistles nor super dramatic body/looks. its ment to be cheap and econimical.

NOW if i were to design a small car that could potentially draw in customers, i would change the style to make it look sportier, possibly state of the art bells and whistles (lets face it a AM/FM cassette isnt gonna cut it anymore) if you make it light enough and have enough gears you can have a low HP, small 4 banger with lotsa get up and go.

now the whole issue of american and most of its people worried about self image and what bob accross town thinks of them...

i read a few of the previous posts i thought soem were excelent points:
1) yes we are a fat country. fat people cant fit into geo's...
2) i liked the point made about how small people need huge trucks and cars like what nerds up there said"Image is everything. People don't want to be seen in a small car because it makes them appear weak." i think that is very very true.
3) dumb a$$ soccer moms, think the bigger the car the safer it is, hence why a 110lb woman and one kid need a hummer...that and havign to show off to the other moms.(again that whole self image thing "looky what i have im better than you" type of attitude.) while that attitude i notice more in women than men, theres plenty of guys who like to show off and act better than others.

i dunno my chevettes heater got so hot one winter it singed my leg hair. 4 cyl warm up faster since the engine is firing alot quicker and theres alot less coolant to heat up:) so if your 4 banger isnt gettign warm at all maybe you should do a coolant flush:thumbup:

I personally think that the Mini is a great helper to the sub-compact class. It is not a cheap car (which means you get status when you buy and drive one) and it has decent performance. The FE is a bit, well, dissapointing though. The Smart seems to be catching on in some circles, but not as much as it should. This is something where people will realize that they missed out when Smart pulls out of N.A.

Unfortunately, small cars are unnecessary in America. We have big roads and big parking spaces. These are some of the main reasons why people buy small cars in Europe and Asia.

I think that until small cars get a more safe image, and fuel prices skyrocket, that Americans will continue to buy oversized cars.

The Hummer is a symbol of fuel consumption as the Prius became the symbol of fuel efficiency... It's not so much that it is the largest consumer - it's just something to rally around ;)

Unfortunately... They have physics on their side :/ The more mass you have in a collision - the less percentage of the energy you'll have to absorb. Mass becomes an instant selling point regardless of actual safety standards :/

-------
What needs to happen in the US... The government needs to stop giving money to the oil companies in the form of tax incentives/breaks.... I've read estimates that this is basically equivalent to a $3-$6 per gallon subsidy :/ But, right now, they keep prices just below the breaking point for bleeding edge technology.

What I'm thinking is that the auto manufactures know that oil companies can't keep prices so low for very much longer. So concepts like the probe V, diesel cycle gas engines and alike are at bay - but not "ready." A year of $6/gallon gasoline will make fuel sippers nuclear hot potatoes with unforgiving haste :p

So what would my Photoshopped version be a symbol of ?:D https://farm2.static.flickr.com/1193/...a5e7e9b9_b.jpg

My $0.02
 

Seems there are a couple problems here:

1) Get the manufacturers to sell cars that are affordable and get good FE
2) Get the consumers to buy the cars that are offered by #1

Well...

1) The manufacturers already make safe, reliable, and FE cars...look in Europe and Asia. The problem that I have heard is that the crash standards are applied differently, but are almost the same when it comes to impact on the occupants. In the USA, occupants are assumed to be UNBELTED and in most of the rest of the world, they are assumed to be BELTED. It tends to force the manufacturers to over-engineer the cars based on that assumption.

2) After reading everyone's replies, it seems like one of many simple solutions is to market the small cars as being for small, slim, stylish, cool, good looking people...leaving the large cars to be driven by ugly, overweight and dowdy people. ;)

rvanengen -

When I heard that posted by someone else here (was it you?) I was incensed. This is one law that's gotta change. We have click-it or ticket laws but the crash test assumes the passenger is breaking the law?!?!?!?!? Somebody has to put a stop to those crash test dummies!

Is it just an oversight? I mean, back in the 1970's I can understand this assumption. But for today, what is the reasoning behind it?

CarloSW2

I talked to a balloon pilot from England this summer and he commented that North American cars don't handle well (compared to european cars). He said that North Americans want comfort, power features, and size. European inspired cars are meant to drive through windy roads, yet you'd be hard pressed to find one with an option such as air conditioning (according to him).

In order for North Americans to like a smaller car, it needs to:
- be sporty as hell
- have luxury-like interior
- have a deep engine sound

Think of some small cars that were huge successes in American markets. I remember when the first generation Neon came out. Everyone loved its 90s styling and powerful engine. Cavalier was also sporty and also had considerable power.

Better interior room
Better torque
Shake the Hollyweird stigma from fuel saving
More interesting styling
Bigger range of options - bare-bones to full-on luxo-mobile
Maintain affordability (many more economical cars are getting quite expensive)
How about better towing? With the spread and equipment we have here, we can't live without a pickup, and can't afford to have a vehicle sitting around that isn't a DD...

They test both belted and unbelted scenarios ;)
NHTSA

Unbelted tests are key for airbag design - as airbags of yore would cause an unbelted occupant to submarine under the dash in an accident :/ However, for safety ratings - NHTSA uses belted data on crash and sled tests ;)

consumer Reports on Testings...

IIHS also tests both scenarios - but I'm not sure if they use unbelted data in their ratings (I'm having trouble finding that information on their website).

Really, the testing most of us need to worry about is the IIHS elevated side impact crash test... The one they designed to simulate an SUV crashing into the side of your car o.0

trebuchet03 -

Ok, that's better. That makes sense. My incense-o-meter has been deactivated. El Diablo est? en los detalles,

CarloSW2

Coffee though nose to keyboard!!!!!





I'll tell ya, I'd like to have one (for about ten minutes) just to offend the snot out of folks at the burlington earth day parade.

Then.... umm. Then it goes back to being wastefull and pure evil.

Who was it that pointed out that the Mini Cooper had a better crash test rating then a full size 1 ton Ford pickup truck? I would think that running a simple ad to that affect would kill truck sales to soccer moms.
yes, having more mass in a vehicle will help it plow thru other objects, but it's hard to make a full frame vehicle that also has crumple zones, and light trucks don't have to pass the same safty standards, even mini vans are in the light truck class, I think in most states it's still the case that a light truck doesn't need safty equipment like rear bumpers (loads varry ride hight), because the light truck catigory is there for vehicles designed for doing work, thus the lower EPA mileage.

Sure, that's completely possible - but it doesn't change that a salesperson can claim "it weighs more, so you'll receive less impact energy" - in a more eloquent way of course :p

That, and crash test ratings are not comparable over different weight classes :/

I understand where you're coming from - and I also understand that it's very well within engineering capability to make a lighter car handle impacts better. But that's not what a great deal of the people buying cars are thinking - it's also not the sales line that's being pushed in the states :/

My thoughts exactly and to me that'd be baseline and on up we'd offer a 1.0L Turbo Diesel with hybrid electric motors to the other set of drive wheels. Hybrid really is a great technology and significantly helps with city driving.

Another issue is that most Americans do not drive standard anymore. I think in this regard the CVT is a great help. It seems to me they should be more efficient then standard even, I really like the prospect of this technology.

I worry you can't make a car that can comfortably seat 5 that is that light and still safe 'enough' now a days. I mean cars were VERY light in the 80s but now you need extra steel and crumple zones and air bags and air bag computers. Safety equipment adds a lot of weight and now people are coming to expect that equipment.

I really hate the mentality that driving a large SUV or truck is safer, that's ONLY true BECAUSE they drive it. What I mean is, if no one drove such vehicles then smaller vehicles would be safe. I mean the only thing bigger on the road is an tractor trailer or construction vehicle and they'll destroy an SUV no problem anyway.

As for trucks, they always cost $30k.

I think the angle of showing that thinner, healthier people drive smaller cars has some merit. Our country has a big stigma when it comes to being overweight. This reminds me of the local police chief (friend of the family) telling me once that they hated Chevy for stopping the full size caprices. They tried using the new Impalas but some of the officers... need more room :-). So they stick with Crown Vics.

As for Americans wanting luxury.... what is with the sunroof craze? The ONLY vehicles I see now a days WITHOUT sunroofs are pickups, and even now, Cadillac and the Avalanche have sunroofs. Why? That's a fair bit of extra weight, not to mention the frame and body strengthening to keep the crash tests up to snuff with a sunroof installed. And of course power windows (which are basically standard on all cars at this point) add at least 10-30lbs/door. I don't know why these are so common now a days, they're not even my idea of luxury, fake wood panelling and leather seats do not add all that much weight comparetively.

Sorry but I think you have it backwards....car companies make the cars the market demands, not the other way around. These days the US market still demands too big, too heavy, and too powerful.

You can't just say something like that either way. There is much more too it than can be summed up in one sentence, and anyone who tries to talk about such relationships and pretends to know the answer is likely full of crap anyway...

:)

IMHO,the Toyota Yaris is already selling quite well in North America. I think if it can be ordered with electronic stability control and more other safety features (the Canadian version has, as yet, no side/curtain air bags), it can become even more popular among the students and their parents, and many other drivers. A turbo or supercharged version will make it hotter among the younger buyers, and an all wheel drive version will make it more welcome in the northern parts of N.A. A luxurious version, say with things like a GPS guided navigating system, a good sound system and more other automated features and gadgets will make it more desirable to the well to do people. A technically advanced version, say with a hybrid drive and/or the CVT will make it more sought after by the technically/envirnomentally minded ones. A diesel version will make FE minded people like me drool.
I think the same should apply to other similar small cars, like the Honda Fit and the Chevy Aveo.
This far, I think the Mercedes B Class is one that may have the necessary attributes to ensure its own success in the states when it becomes available there (I think it has become so or is becoming so soon). Too bad, its price is relatively high.

There is no doubt a segment of the population who just can't get enough power/acceleration. Just look on the diesel truck forums -- very depressing (and rather pathetic I think). OTOH, If I took an informal survey of all my friends and aquaintances, I'd be willing to bet that the majority would say they want decent safety features and impact ratings, and enough power (more torque than acceleration) to keep up with traffic and get up hills adequately. Beyond that, I think they would be willing to trade the excess power for efficiency. I guarantee my mom's '99 passat has never once seen 5,000 rpm (even when she let me borrow it when I was younger/stupider), and I think she's a pretty typical driver.

Not that we americans are completely blameless. The manufacturers feed us their latest crop and we passively accept it without clamoring for something better.

And it probably is true that the vast majority of automotive "enthusiasts" want speed and performance, and they're the ones who read the magazines and respond to market surveys, etc.

But I've got to think that an 85-95 hp car with modern safety features, good styling, a 50 mpg epa rating, and priced in the mid teens would sell. It would have to be one of the best selling cars out there -- assuming it came from one of the major manufacturers and was enthusiastically marketed (unlike GMs EV1 a few years ago). And with current technology and intelligent design, this would be easily doable.

I think it's a combination and feedback cycle of public apathy/ignorance and the manufacturers deliberately keeping certain vehicles -- which they already mass produce for other markets -- out of America. But I do blame the manufacturers primarily because you can't really expect the average soccer mom to understand gear ratios and engine thermodynamics.

A rough idea of a conversation I had the other day at work after seeing my metro and finding out how good a mileage it gets.

girl:"I wish I could get that kind of mileage in my car"

me:"It isn't that hard just get a little car strip it down to the bare essentials and legal minimum stuff"

girl:"but I want to keep my power windows and air conditioning and I like sitting up high in my explorer"

me:"There is no secret trick to get better mileage, change how you drive or change what you drive can get you better mileage, but getting a big heavy station wagon to get over 20mpg is not really possible"

girl:"I have heard there are things you can buy and put on your car to get a lot better mileage that are coming out soon" (as seen on TV crap I figure)

me:"ok sure whatever you say"

It wasnt that simple of a conversation but you can get the general idea of it. She is not willing to give up all the nonsense and perceived safety of her wagon and thinks that any day now she can buy something to put on it that will get it up to 30mpg or whatever. So I bet the next car she buys will be another big thing and she will still think that soon it will get better mileage so it is ok to put up with bad mileage for now since it is only temporary. Or maybe like a lot of stupid people they still think that once bush is out of office gas will go back down :)

Me personally I don't think small cars actually have an image problem. I get plenty of attention in my Metro, not just weird looks and have actually picked up several women while cruising around in it. I went to a car show and parked on a side near the end of the show cars and it got more attention that most of the cars at the show, so next year I am actually going to wash it and put it in the show beside my kit car. If anyone actually made a basic small car that got 50+mpg and was around 10k they prob would be selling a lot of them. Right now the only way to get a basic small car or truck with good mileage is to buy used.

thast the problem right there i think, ok i can see if a really tall person needs a bigger velchle to fit in and be comforiatble but when you have some tiny little woman in a huge truck that she need s a stepladder to get into it just because she wants to sit up high and feel liek "shes taller/better than everyone else" then they get that soccer mom attitude and idea and accualy think they are better than you in the tiny geo(just an example) and try to run you over. and oh man i cant be seen *GASP* manually rolling down my windows!!!! or i dont dare be hot unless im tanning!!!!!!!

New Beetle... For people that gain height when they sit down :p Seriously, you'd be hard pressed to wonk your head into the roof :p

To be fair though, I physically don't fit in an older Miata - my head is above the windscreen due to my giraffe like neck :p I also don't fit in the back seat of a Porsche 944 - we have to take the sunroof off and 3/4 of my head sticks out (luckily, that only been a "need" once) :p

I've always driven small cars...my first was a 1976 Renault 5.

My smart has power windows, ESP, ABS, remote central locking, A/C, cruise control, heated seats (two stage), heated/electric mirrors, electric softop, decent sound system, locking glovebox.....it's pretty much as comfortable as any larger car I've been in, and is definitely not a bare-bones stripper.

I have had a guy who is 6'8" sitting "comfortably" (his words) in the car, saying it was much more roomy than his New Beetle.

I think it's just complacency. Why do so many people eat at McDonalds? Surely not because of the food.

Somehow I always saw you as having a really long neck...there's a guy on campus I don't know but call long-neck behind his back...mehbe you're related?

True...that is what is tested, but do you know what the requirements are for the design, regardless of the results?

And again...we just need some more advertising on the part of the auto makers to get people to realize that they are NOT always safer in an SUV...nor is it really "cool" to spend several minutes looking for a parking space that your monster will fit and still be able to open the doors!

That is actually a really great question - the answer to which, I don't know (yet) :p

Inappropriate language on your part...go take a marketing class, then we can talk, and agree ;-)