Saturn burning oil
Because I am burning oil with my gas!
Wonder how much that actually affects MPG, I have been researching how much oil Saturn's drink and if you are pouring a quart in every 300 miles that seems pretty significant. I was driving to work and noticed a slight ticking noise. I parked on level ground so that I could check my oil when I got off. Sure enough it was atleast a quart low as there was nothing showing on the dipstick. After running to the nearest Autozone and putting a full quart in I could barely see some on the tip. I haven't changed the oil since I bought the car and have run it about 1500 miles. Can't remember where it was on the dipstick when I checked it during the test drive either. However I do know that it was there. The seller didn't mention burning oil, and I have a tendency to think he didn't notice it as according to him he simply had it changed every 3k. My question is, how much would my driving style affect oil consumption? Would driving at lowrpm/high load cause more blowby than moderate rpm at low load? I shift at or below 1500 rpm sometimes at the verge of it bucking. I am going to take it in for an oil change and see how it does the next 3k miles or so. And keep a better eye on it this time around :). In comparison my 1963 bel-air was not using any oil the last couple of changes. It was using some before that but I suspect that was part of the engine breaking in and the valve cover gasket leak. Granted it only had 10k miles on it. But my engine is at a whopping 87k, it shouldn't be at the end of it's life yet! I wonder if it being a flood vehicle would have affected the rings/valve stems at all. Probably not considering how many other people have this situation. I have succesfully typed another long post that 98% of the people won't have the time to read ending up in only a couple responses. Hmm, funny how that seems to happen with me. Oh wait, it is self inflicted! |
Fourthbean -
Sorry about that. I should have warned/said you should "check your damn oil!" as SaturnFan Wolfman says : The FINAL word about oil additives (I hope) https://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38696 On average I seem to be adding about 1/2 quart around the 2000 mile point. Every 3000 miles I change to a 40 weight oil. I should use a thinner oil for MPG, but the "rule of thumb" seems to be that heavier oils don't burn as much (right?!?!?!?). If I was smart I would check the oil at least once a week or once every 500 miles. In terms of MPG, I don't think it's an issue. I keep thinking that it hurts emissions. I didn't notice oil burning until I started my long highway commutes. All Saturn S-Series should have come with a built-in trunk cubbyhole for 1-quart bottles of engine oil and funnels, ;) . CarloSW2 |
I don't see how driving at low rpms would create more oil burning. If anything, I would think it would cause it to burn less.
Being a flood vehicle could have rusted the cylinder walls a bit, which would cause extreme wear on the piston rings, causing the motor to burn oil. I would just check your oil at every gas fill-up, and once it needs oil added more than just at every fill-up, replace the motor. I would try switching to a thicker oil that is not synthetic since that generally just burns/leaks more than conventional oils. |
Interesting, I didn't know that saturns were infamous for burning oil.
I would also advise you to switch to a thicker dino oil to help keep the burn down. You could always but new rings on, too! |
well first off way i see it u made 2 mistakes as i see it. first off A) you should change out all fluids and anything else that usually weares out once u buy the car (plugs and plug wires, tstat, etc) that way you know its been XXXX ammount of miles till next oil change and you know theres new plugs and wires in it and once all thats replaced then you know the engiesn running as best it can, not by what the seller says.
B) you bought a car that was in a flood. obviously it was bad enough to have an insurance claim. water does mysterious things to engines, if its got an opening(which engines have ALOT of) it got inside, in the oil, around the close clearance valve guides causing rust which is rough and sharp and prolly chewed up your valve guides. and yes obviously some valves were open so water was sittin in the cylynders and again, causign rust and chewed up the rings like others have said. soo to determine where its commin from, do a compression test and a cilynder leakdown test. it will tell you if its got leaky valve guides or leaky rings. then its up to you on what route to go to fix it, have a machine shop fix the current engine(very possible) or have them swap in a new(or rebuilt) head and or block with matched pistons and crank, OR obviously replace the whole engine. |
My first Saturn burned oil but the one that was my "temporary ride" had 165K when I bought it for my grandpa and didn't use a drop. The kid we sold it to says it still isn't using oil and it's up around 180K now. The '99 SL2 that my son drives has ~110K and doesn't use any oil but I changed the valve seals when I first got it and had the Singh grooves put in. Most Saturn's do burn oil when the get in the neighborhood of 100K. Someone once claimed that it's because the piston rings are installed at the factory with all of the end-gaps being in the same place/lined up. I don't know if that's true or not. I have heard several people claim that re-ringing or even rotating the rings will stop oil burning in Saturn SL's.
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It's mostly speculation and my frustration at the moment. It probably isn't as bad as I am making it out to be. I am going to have an oil change done tomorrow (did the plugs/wires/'stat after getting the car). The car was in a flood, but that was 50k or so miles ago, so there shouldn't be any "new" problems arising. Just my speculation on why it would be burning.
Looks like I was about 2 quarts low, though I don't think I damaged anything in the engine. All sounds good after another 100 miles or so of having enough oil in. I kept meaning to check the oil, but I park on hills at work and at home so I kept forgetting to move it somewhere flat to check. That's an interesting story about the ring gaps all being in the same place. Surely with all the work put into a car to design it they wouldn't do something that simple to cause oil burnage... |
I forget who it was on this board, but they mentioned the fact that the OEM saturn rings tend to lend themselves to blow-by easily. He made a mention that using seafoam to de-carbonize the engine seemed to help out with that issue. I suppose the other option would be to re-ring the pistons.
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You can do an MMO soak. Marvel's mystery oil. Its real popular over at saturnfans. Some say it helps with oil burning. Mine has 83k on it and its not burning any yet. Unless you count 1 quart for a 9k interval. I'm running amsoil now so will see if it burns it.
I've never been one to change good parts out. When I buy car it better have nice clean fluids in it already. Now things like wheel bearings, rear axle oil, brake fluid, antifreeze. Those should be checked. |
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My '89 Accord with 400,000 km did not burn a drop of oil in "normal" driving (which for me at that time was: light load, low RPM). But it would burn oil if I pushed it on the freeway ("pushing it" was anything over 110 km/h / 68 mph = moderate RPM, moderate load) If I had to guess, I'd say higher load will equal more consumption. But that's based on nothing. |
I read a few threads there at the Saturn forums and have a few things to try. Got the oil changed today for Quaker state 10w30. I will watch it and see how much it really is burning to determine what further actions I will take.
Thanks for the input everyone. |
Something to Consider
Given what I've read over the last three years, were it my car, I'd treat it to a regimen of Auto-Rx. This thread might interest you, and this one has a post from someone (bender) you might want to contact to learn just what Auto-Rx did in his Saturn.
Also, spend some time searching this forum for both generic and Saturn-specific issues that interest you. Having just had the oil changed with conventional (dino) Quaker State, you can start the regimen as soon as the bottle(s) of Auto-Rx arrive. There's no need for another change right now, simply pour the Auto-Rx into the engine and it will mix with your 10W-30 QS. Let us know what you do and how things progress. |
Thanks for the links, I have browsed those two sites and will do some more research on the auto-rx product if it comes down to trying an additive.
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Sorry for bringing back an old thread, but, I had something to add. This car having been in a flood obviously can't help. But, there is an inherent problem with Saturns that causes them to burn oil. On most cars the pistons have oil drain back holes in the oil control ring grooves of the pistons. Saturns do not have these drain back holes. Therefore, when oil gets in the oil control ring it can't get back down. It eventually finds it's way up into the combustion chamber and gets burned off. This also causes the rings to get gummed up and stick. Which is why the Saturn forums suggest the Seafoam/MMO/GM Top End Cleaner piston soak to help free the rings up. It works pretty well if the engine isn't in too bad of shape already. Just look at the tech articles on sixthsphere.com for a how to on it.
Also note that, per the FSMs, Saturn considers 1 quart of oil consumption per 1,000 miles to be normal and acceptable for the S-Series. The FSM's also state that driving at high speeds/high engine speeds causes more oil consumption. So low speeds should not cause this. Also, if you were ever to rebuild your engine there are aftermarket pistons by Sealed Power that have these drain back holes. The pistons are also hypereutectic, so you can run pretty tight clearances with them to combat blow by. So, basically, just check your oil every time you fill up and you'll be fine. If it gets too bad, consider a rebuild. The LL0/LK0 engines are pretty simple to build. |
I think the reason high RPMs contribute to increased oil burning is that more air is being sucked through the PCV valve and taking oil droplets with it. Install a PCV catch can and monitor how often you have to empty it. My catch can seems to fill up very quickly but I never lose more than 1/2 quart between oil changes.
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Po' Daddy -
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I seem to remember someone on this forum (or SaturnFans?!?!?!) asking about performance aftermarket parts for Saturn engines. The Sealed Power option sounds like what they were looking for. CarloSW2 |
I had some good experience with Auto-RX in my V10 Ford truck. It cleaned things up clean as a whistle under the valve cover. If it cleaned the bad varnish up as good as that, I'm sure it cleaned everything else like advertised.
The truck felt like it had awakened from a sleep. Of course, that was from using a thinner oil, as well. But still...I think it's a good product. The attractive thing is that it is a slow and gentle cleaner. |
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This is interesting. I guess I just got lucky. My Saturn at 87k is not needing any oil added between changes yet. My Saturn makes the oil dark though. I blamed that on the edges of the combustion chamber but I am just speculating.
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I would first check for leaks, that would be my only priority because if it has internal engine problems then you may have to chalk this one up to experience. If you can't get it to stop consuming oil after all leaks are fixed, you may just want to start saving your money for a better car and drive this one until it craps out but first I would look for leaks.
Experience is what we learn with age, here's what I know: Upkeep of a used sold car is the BUYER's responsibility! The seller don't care, it's outta here, all he or she has to (and wants to) do is make sure it's not falling apart and clean it up but beyond that the seller has no responsibility because their responsibility goes to the car they are buying next, see how that works? Somebody has to take car of the car, the responsibility could fall either way but it makes the most sense to dump your resources into the car you're buying since that's what you will be using, and if all buyers always assume this responsibility then the seller is absolved and it makes it easy, plus it's the way it is :p - So, it is always the buyer's responsibility to ensure upkeep, especially with used cars. It may not be the best news, but it's the way it is, houses are the same way. ALWAYS change the oil first thing anytime you buy a used car. Matter of fact you really should splurge at this point and spend some serious money doing a trans fluid and filter change, then replace fuel and air filter, spark plugs, wires, cap and rotor, pcv valve, breather cap, maybe the 02 sensor, also inspect brake pads and while you're there grease pack the wheel bearings and check tie rod ends and bushings for wear... Beyond this a cooling system flush and fill might be helpful but more than this fix and repair anything else that's broken. Might take a week or two, might cost a thousand or two (far less if you DIY) but it's a long time trouble free driving and thus well worth it. Bonus: This initial maintenance spell helps wear off that new car excitement, one hates to do it but it's a productive way to wear it off and helps make the buyer respect the car more early on as well. ............ Any car that uses more than one quart of oil between changes is losing a significant amount of oil! Technically speaking no oil should have to be added between changes, thou one quart is considered acceptable... Via this math a car could lose (use) up to two quarts between changes, one quart is added at 1500 miles then at 3000 it's changed, but not beyond. Quote:
If after 1-2 changes it still goes pitch black between changes a motor flush might be considered (sold at auto stores in a quart bottle with instructions, or you can use a quart of kerosene if you know how to do it already). |
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Thanks for the input. I am sure that you mean well, but: I wonder if I should have splurged and spent 1000 on repairs/upkeep in the first 2 weeks only to find out the engine is only going to last another 3K miles (I am quite sure mine will last much longer than that). Somehow that doesn't sound like a smart decision and saying all of those things should be done to a newly purchased used vehicle might cause a person to be in even worse shape afterwards. I'm not saying certain things shouldn't be performed on a car that you don't know the history of. However afaik manual tranny fluid is supposed to last the life of the transmission, in which case why would you change it not knowing how long the car will last? I believe Saturn specifies 1 quart lost every 1000 miles as normal. Of course each person has their own definition of normal, and that certainly isn't mine. I am not low on oil as of now, however I think the service station put more oil than they were supposed to in. |
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