Is HHO the way to go?
 

I saw the add for Water 4 Gas here and decided to check it out. Well I must say I'm impressed, I have been told by so many in industry that cracking hydrogen from water takes more energy to make than the gas that is produced that I wrote off the idea of hydrogen along with the fuel cell revolution. There have been so many Nay Sayers going, the infrastructure of America cannot support broad use of hydrogen and prodution, that I thought hydrogen was just another idea that was researched, tested, and found to be a failure. Incedentially the nay sayers being large companies I'v researched in my quest for greener living. A hobby of stock research and futures on energies, broad range HHO production is said to be too expensive.

Well I was wrong, its seems as easy as a revolution of backyard mechanics putting together small jar HHO generators to double the mileage of there cars was a reality. So I have been combing the net looking for all sorts of info on HHO and the best source I found was Youtube, just enter HHO or MPG in a search and you will be treated to thousands of video's by home experimenters making HHO for pennies. Also Water 4 Gas has great schematics for building HHO generators for cheap.

HHO, Hydrogen/Oxygen is simply made by making a sandwich of stainless steel plates in a bath of baking soda and water. Use the 12 volts from your car battery to start the electrolisis process in the plates and viola, you can suppliment your gasoline with a stream of HHO.

The benefits, in a fuel injected car, the O2 sensor will read a rich condition and lean the mix, your burning less gasoline getting better mileage and it only costs you water and baking soda.

So as soon as I buy my next car ( Saturn, Civic, Escort, or Geo), I'll start building some cells and see how much HHO I can make.

Has anyone out there had any luck assembling cells and does the mileage double? From the info on Youtube, it seems the skys the limit. Oh also, if you do build a system, make sure you install back fire valves, so you don't have a Hindenburg under the hood.

Oh, MPG Research has started a column on Hydrogen, this seems to be the fuel of the future, I can't wait to hear the responce. Thank you.

hydrogen is a great fuel and pretty easy to harvest.... it does take energy to do that so there's no magic...

i'd sure like to see someone here take on something like this... there's a lot of wild things being claimed on the web and a lot of good things are over inflated to the point where they become incredible, but that doesn't mean that there isn't any benefit in it...

the way i see it it's kind of a hybrid system where electric energy is not converted into mechanical motion, but used to produce a potent fuel additive that can be used in the existing motor without the weight penalty of batterys and aditional motors...

i don't know much about it, but i think if someone claims this is a good idea it's worth giving it a try, if only to prove them wrong.

See the bearded lady, the dog faced boy, the fire eater, only 50 cents folks, step right up. Thanks very much, friend!

A fool and his money are soon parted. There's a sucker born every minute.
She was practiced at the art of deception. Etc. Etc.

Having seen some of the "ideas" on the inet and other places for this my understanding is...

The H2O is split to provide hydrogen then it is burned to provide energy and recombines with the oxygen to produce water as the only emission byproduct.

Damn ; Shell , BP , Exxon Mobil , Texaco should be getting on board here.
What IS WRONG with 'em?

Sorry but the laws of physics simply mean there is a negative outcome to the energy equation : It take more energy to produce hydrogen by electrolysis then you get from burning the end product.

Ahh no wait...yes I see it now...it's a conspiracy by the oil companies and the government ...they are probably reading this as I write it so I'll finish here.

Satanic mechanic: Yep an oldie but goldie from the Strolling Bones er I mean Rolling Sones and yes I have to agree "You can't always get what you want"

Pete.

It's actually worse than that, not only is electrolysis not super efficient, but the energy you're using for the electrolysis is created by an alternator that's not all that efficient which is driven by the explosion of your hyrdogen... etc.

You'd be lucky if your MPG only dropped by 1/4 instead of by 1/2.

The only way I'll ever be convinced that Hydrogen is truly special is if there's a cheap DIY way to build a device that can harness it and store it through solar energy and in that way just have my own at home refueling station. Until this can be done and proven cheaper than just a regular electric solar panel charging a battery, then this will remain a useless technology.

As you said in your initial post there is no good way to distribute H, there's no really good way to create it (the purely green ways are not very efficient) and in the end it's only being used as a substitute for using a battery. Espeically in a fuel cell car, they're not magical they're just using H as a medium to transport and store electricity... and you know what? Batteries are FAR more effiecient.

Just wondering if the exhaust heat could be used to fire a peltier device to do the actual electrolysis? Now THAT would only be waste heat, and limited solely to how much extra could be produced, not making it a perpetual motion machine BUT actually re-using some of the by-product.

I don't know if HHO injection actually works (let's assume for sake of argument that it does) but if it in fact does - then *whatever* excess HHO was produced was burned - then it's free fuel additive at any time, except for the startup cost of the peltier.

Would that qualify? I know that it's not perpetual motion but increased (by how much I don't know) efficiency by not using mechanical drag (like a turbo-driven alternator previously discussed) and not using the alternator to generate the electrical charge?

All THAT said - would the increased FE overcome the weight increase of the peltier device to power it, and the increased water weight?

Could I see your calculations? Because I don't believe your entirely right. We installed an amateur version of the device noted on the water4gas website in my friend's volvo 740 (89). We simply used a mason jar, some high gauge wire, and some rust proof screws. Filled the jar with some water with as much salt diluted in it as possible. After a week of on road testing the volvo had an additional 10 mpg (50% ^). We have yet to do any definite testing, but its obvious there's an increase.

I spoke with a previous chem. teacher at my school (very interested in the process) who will be working with us to figure out the most efficient and worth while way to use electrolysis.

The solar panels however are not a bad idea, as in order to increase your mpg even more, you will need more jars for electrolysis, and therefor more energy.


P.S. the best part of the experiment was I had everything we needed, and even if I didn't it would only have cost about $2. If you don't believe me try it yourself! Its very easy to install/uninstall, and the only "damage" to your car will be a small hole on your intake.

Ok, the misunderstanding here is in what the hydrogen is doing. In a conventional gas engine, thermal efficiency is only around 25%, compared to a diesel engine which runs closer to 35%. Gasoline is typically C9H20, while diesel fuel is typically C14H30. The diesel cycle burns at a higher compression, which means a higher temperature, which means a more complete breakdown and a more efficient engine. Hydrogen because it doesn't have any bonds that need to be broken to burn, will react and burn immediately, compared to gas/diesel that have a much slower reaction time. It is not the energy in the hydrogen, but the reaction rate that is driving up the efficiency. By having the burn start sooner and hotter, the gasoline/diesel fuel breaks down further. This means a more complete burn, giving more power and less pollution at the same time. So, conclusion; the hydrogen is acting like a catalyst, not a fuel. Take a look at:

https://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/...d-messiah.html

This article was origionally published in Popular Mechanics. It's mostly about turbine hybrid vehicles, which are another interesting subject, but take a look at the reference to Uli Kruger about halfway through.

quote:

"But Goodwin wanted more. While researching alternative fuels, he learned about the work of Uli Kruger, a German who has spent decades in Australia exploring techniques for blending fuels that normally don't mix. One of Kruger's systems induces hydrogen into the air intake of a diesel engine, producing a cascade of emissions-reducing and mileage-boosting effects. The hydrogen, ignited by the diesel combustion, burns extremely clean, producing only water as a by-product. It also displaces up to 50% of the diesel needed to fuel the car, effectively doubling the diesel's mileage and cutting emissions by at least half. Better yet, the water produced from the hydrogen combustion cools down the engine, so the diesel combustion generates fewer particulates--and thus fewer nitrogen-oxide emissions.

"You can feed it hydrogen, diesel, biodiesel, corn oil--pretty much anything but water.""It's really a fantastic chain reaction, all these good things happening at once," Kruger tells me. He has also successfully introduced natural gas--a ubiquitous and generally cheap fuel--into a diesel-burning engine, which likewise doubles the mileage while slashing emissions. In another system, he uses heat from the diesel engine to vaporize ethanol to the point where it can be injected into the diesel combustion chambers as a booster, with similar emissions-cutting effects"

It's in my opinion the more rapidly expanding and then lower pressure of the exhaust gasses are cooler before the exhaust valve opens. Theoretically there is no nitrogen-oxide emissions when all the oxygen is used up.
good post "nightphorge"

You might help the believeability factor if you would post some details and pics?

I've "heard" of some people having some success and many that haven't...espec if just adding a simple generator like yours. Depends on the vehicle?


https://pesn.com/2007/11/29/9500461_B..._replications/


As far as I know...the better generators use multiple cells and even frequency controllers. Then there is the need to "control" the ECU and sensors.

You'll find much of the info THIN since some of these people try to sell their generators if they find something that works.

I found a site that reviews some of the generators for sale...can't find the link now.

Check around on the various links?

I'd just love to install something simple like you say and see that kind of gain...:D ...but I've heard too many people post that they failed to do it. And these were some tech savvy types.

https://www.web-space.tv/free-energy/

Check out chapter 10 for some free H generator designs? Refresh the page?

The installation I was referencing earlier is still installed in my friends volvo, so I don't have any pictures of that. Its basically just a mason jar as I said earlier. We have however been working on a new more cosmetically pleasing version, which I have uploaded pictures of. As you'll notice, we didn't purchased stainless steel washers on this model and it rusted quite badly. We have ordered some online, and will show our rig in action as soon as they come.

https://tprints.net/HHO

That 10 mpg and 50% gain tallies well with the EPA figures for that car at maybe 23 highway.

I think you lucked out and put a simple generator on the right car....not putting what you did down...it's more than I've done which is zero so far in terms of hydrogen.

From what I can gather...there are some "groups" that focus on trying get get the greatest gas flow they can...and they get some very high flow rates but use some complicated tech to do it....and there are some "systems" like the HAFC where the simple H generator only puts out 1 L per minute...the other mpg gains coming from fuel heat/magnetics/sensor tweaking/fuel additives, etc.

Just ran across a video where the guy stated that he found a bunch of pizza cutters with ss disks (Dollar Store?) and bought them for the disks.

I'd stay with your simpler h generator with improvements and tweak in other areas...maybe try an EFIE?

You might try magnetics and fuel additives also. Oil additives...engine/trans/diff. PCV jar. Aero is also a good area to explore.

Might check this post out for some other Volvo ideas?

https://www.mpgresearch.com/viewtopic.php?t=1119

Let's see some pictures and more hard data. If it's still functioning, it would be as easy as taking the last set of pictures.

I'll talk to him later 2nite about taking some pictures. As far as hard data what should we be doing to test it? As I said earlier, his mpg increased aprox. 50% (10 mpg) with normal driving. Any recommendations on things to test?

-Nate

Before and after actual data that tries to control potential problems would be a start. Driving conditions, fuel stations, miles for each test, weather. Be reasonable. As it is, you've stated you had a gain "of 50%" to stating that you had a gain of "approximately 50%".

Shut the unit down. Drive it without and make tests too. Unless everything you have is perfect now, you'll never recognize what you did right.

Sort of hard to test in winter...unless you don't see much snow. Valid tests to me are 2 way runs at 55 mph using a full tank...or a 3 tank avg using a typical driving route and style.

You need to leave out unusual driving techniques?

If the car is a daily commuter...test it that way? 3 tanks with...3 tanks without? Or just 3 tanks with considering the typical mileage for that car.

And this is from someone who has researched it and tried it or just someone who reads negatives into possible outcomes? I am planning to try it and no I do not understand the process or how it works but then I also do not understand how a diesel engine that is 4 cycle does not have vacuum like a gas engine. Does it work , of course. Now I will try the water thingy and see for myself perhaps you could too.

?

rangerbentman- diesels don't have a throttle valve. Its the restriction caused by a closed throttle valve that allows vacuum to build in the intake manifold of a gas engine. In a gas engine, when you open the throttle valve up all the way, the vacuum drops to close to zero- there is only a tiny amount of vacuum that causes air to rush through the filter and into the cylinders.

Sorry I was trying to get across that I am not a tech wizard and just because I do not know or understand a particular facet of life I do not throw in the towel as if the object does not exist. I will try the hho or hoh elcheapo gimmick and see if it does anything , and if it does I will post it to the positive or negative. I lose more on the stocks I own in 8 minutes than I stand to lose with this magical invention.

thanks Eric

Still...you should do some research and make it right...or be prepared for disappointment? Learn from others?

Making the cell
 

When using a jar for the cell, do you put a vent much like a water pipe, for smoking, in with a tube to the bottom? Or do you just plumb it to the intake and it will create it's own flow/pressure?
Thanks,
Jim

Hello -

I have this one with no success to speak of, but I wasn't willing to implement the whole system :

Hydrogen Booster Installed ...
https://www.gassavers.org/showthread.php?t=2668


Here are some other sources to peruse, but the commercial ones seem to be out of date. If I don't see "latest news" that isn't within 2 months, then I begin to wonder what's going on :

Fossil-Fuel Stopgap May Virtually Eliminate Auto Emissions - September 20th, 2005
https://www.damninteresting.com/?p=44

Hydrogen Injection Proven in Real-World Usage - November 16th, 2005
https://www.damninteresting.com/?p=195

Canadian Hydrogen Energy Company Ltd
https://www.chechfi.ca/index.html

I consider this little bit of history to be the "seed" of hydrogen boost systems :

Hydrogen Injection PDF ...
https://www.chechfi.ca/pdfs/hydrogen_injection.pdf
Canadian Hydrogen Energy Company Product Brochure
https://www.chechfi.ca/pdfs/productbrochure.pdf

A Hydrogen-based Alternative - Canada
https://www.ihsresearch.com/


CarloSW2

teammaico I'm not quite sure what you're asking, but all we did as far as venting was drill a whole in the top and seal it. This works for 2 reason. First of all because the jar is sealed, so the HHO produced in the reaction must escape, and does so through the hole in the top (routed to the air intake). In addition the pipe that goes to the air intake is drilled into the side of a pre-existing pipe which air flows past. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the idea, but if you have a T connector, and blow air past the top it creates a natural vacum through the bottom.

Basically what I'm saying is, just drill a whole in the top of the jar, seal a connector into it, and run a hose from there to your air intake and it should work just fine. The air intake does supply a small bit of suction that will also help you out.

Good Luck!
-Nate

ok,
hydrogen DOES fuel the combustion process
BUT
aproximately like, 1000 watts equal 1 horsepower. It takes a lot more than 1000 watts for all the store bought systems out there to work. The gain in combustion chamber pressures never gets to the road, or your wallet because the engine needs to produce more electricity to power the generator. The only times i COULD see it possibly working is if you were running rich

Hydrogen injection works because it increases the efficiency of combustion? Usually there is a need to retard ignit timing when it is used. Works IF the ECU doesn't enrich the mix to feed the cat that is.

https://www.eagle-research.com/

"For those of you who believe the misleading 'standard line' that a gasoline engine is 25% efficient, here is a little math that is easily verified.

Given: That a standard sized car making 20 mpg traveling on a flat road at 60 mph with no wind requires about 12 horsepower.

12 horsepower is about 9 KW. 1 KW is 3,414 BTU/hr; thus the car is using 30,726 BTU/hr to maintain speed (9x3,414).

The car is using 3 gallons of gasoline per hour (60/20). Gasoline has about 19,000 BTU/lb and a US gallon has about 5.8 lbs/gal so the car is 'consuming' 330,600 BTU/hr. (5.8x19,000)x3

This is about 9% efficiency, the 'actual vehicle efficiency'. (30,726/330,600)"

What would work for your outside electrode?

https://www.jcwhitney.com/autoparts/I...D:100000174760

Along with the Dollar store pizza cutter wheels?

You might want to add a simple bubbler to avoid flashback? Could just be a jar with water in it. The gas bubbles up thru the water before going to the engine...also removes some contaminants.

Interesting pages?

https://oupower.com/index.php?dir=_My...s/Electrolysis

Thanks that is what I was asking. It seemed to me the venturi affect would be pulling against a dead head. I thought the creatation of the gas would generate it's own pressure thus allowing the the venturi affect to pull it out of the jar. Thanks for your reply

I have gathered the parts I need for a test HHO generator. Now I think I should examine when I want the unit powered. These are my thoughts...

HHO desirable
Cruising, vacuum less than say, 18 inches.

HHO undesirable
engine off!
Idle (zero miles to gallon anyway)
brake on.

Anyone have other suggestions?

BTW, I wasted a lot of time searching for stainless strips only to find Ace Hardware has them for $.99-1.29 depending on thickness.

I just had my Subie in for it's 24000 km warranty check and was told ANY thing I do to the engine voids the warranty. Also the service manager talked about someone doing his own install of a hydrogen boost to his car and melting something, although he did add that the install was not done right. So I guess I can start with a pro kit and not homemade after my warranty expires in 2.4 years. There is still hope.

Been thinking and researching myself. Looks like the smaller the displacement of the engine...the better your chance with the simpler straight DC types.

Need to do everything possible to increase efficiency...HHO produced per amp used.

Could use a microswitch on the throttle cable and the ignit switch to have it run only above idle.

What kind of design are you using?

flapdoodle -

I would read this dude's newsletters :

Diesel Dynamometer Testing Analysis - September 2007
https://www.hydrogen-boost.com/September%202007.html
https://www.hydrogen-boost.com/Septem...s/image016.jpg


CarloSW2

I made a page here: https://flapdoodledinghy.com/HHO_generator.html
The switches you suggested seems like the most logical way to go.

That is very impressive and encouraging. Thanks!

Hello -

Here's another thing that talks about hydrogen being researched/funded for improving diesel emissions and fuel economy :

SDTC Provides C$48 Million in Funding for Clean Tech Projects; Li-Ion Battery for Hybrids Among Them - 7 July 2007
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2007...ovides-c4.html
CarloSW2

Might check out this forum thread...the guy with the spiral cells. I was thinking of using 2 or 3 of them in series with a third as a bubbler...and using manifold vac to add air. Seem to be easy to make at least and have low operating temps as a series.

https://oupower.com/phpBB2/viewtopic....r=asc&start=15

As far as the efficiency charts at hydrogen-boost...this guy claims he almost doubled a mopeds mpg. He also uses them with large displacement engines. I don't think these are all that efficient...just easy to make.

Thinking that you have to balance load (amps) vs HHO output...during cruise conditions for best mpg? With the amp load...you'll need HHO at idle...probably need to boost the idle speed as with AC?

Possible that not all that much HHO is needed to boost mpg during cruise conditions? These simpler cells are going to put out way less HHO than 1 L / min.

https://oupower.com/index.php?dir=_Ot...&DrillDown=yes

> bottom of page

NOTE: I would have a good active antivirus prog running as you follow the HHO links. A free prog called Spyware Terminator with the Web Security Guard is a good idea too. I had both progs go off on one site...had good info too. Guy is no longer active...skunks got him?

Many thanks to all of you for your help. The smooth idle is certainly desirable. Since my test generator has two sets of electrodes (five amps each to give the target 10 amps at cruising), one could be tied to the ignition through a relay and the other powered through either a vacuum switch, or throttle switch.

I am keeping the log updated as I go. Many surprises. One is that antifreeze and NaOH don't seem to go together well, and I thought it best to switch to a Mason jar because of problems with adhesives.
https://flapdoodledinghy.com/HHO_generator.html

Some quoted info:

"If you are designing a good cell you may as well make it Efficient.
This means Low voltage across the plates.... between 1.24 V and 3.0 V.

Know that 1.24 V will be very slow production and thus require HUGE plate
area for only small gas Production. but it will get COLD as it runs.

At about 1.7 V it starts to very slightly warm when run with Big current
and anything greater than say 3 V will lose lots of energy in heat.

There is a maximum current allowance for efficiency too,
best to be near 0.25 A per 25mm Squared of plate Reacting surface.
( we are talking about one reacting surface - in mine this is 83mm x
365 mm = 30,295 mmSq. 30,295/625 = 48.4 lots of 0.25 A = 12.1 A)

[guessing that he means calculating the surface of one of each pair of equal plates?]

But you can go up to 0.5 A per 25mm Sq for little loss."


My opinions from reading:

* the best efficiencies are found using a high plate count series cell...but they are not simple to make.

* your 2 series / same electrolyte bath cell is probably running at 6V across the plates

* four of the independent spiral cells mentioned above run as a series would have 3 V across the plates...you'd need to adjust the surface area if using 4 in series?

* the most efficient electrolyte is NaOH...not sure how they handle freezing

I've already got too many things going, but if I were to give it a go I'd try maybe 5 tall peanut butter type jars (plastic if possible with plastic lids) using NaOH...4 being spiral cells..1 being a bubbler. I'd carefully calculate the total surface area needed...set these in a wood box. Keep the areas of collected gas to a minimum. I'd keep the amps under 12 or so.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_hydroxide

But you don't play games with HHO...not a project for Beevis and Butthead for sure. I might try it sometime in the future.

At least you've actually made one.....:D

I was curious about the claims that temperature reduces efficiency with 12 volts/cell (regulated).
time amp temp ?F ~bubbles./minute bubbles/min/amp
6:25 8.9 88.3 140 bubbles 15.7
6:27 9.8 96.8 160+ 16.3+
6:32 10.1 100 180 17.8
6:37 10.9 110 190+ 17.3+

With a rise of 22 degrees, the production went up 10%
After this, I have a hard time believing the claim of reduced efficiency for higher temperatures.

At 5 volts regulated:
1.8 amps 105 deg. 61 bubbles/min (accurate)

This makes it look like 2 jars in series would give 122 bubbles @ 3.6 amps versus 140 bubbles @ 8.9 amps for a single jar.

Adjusted for the difference in voltage, two jars would give 144 bubbles at 3.6 amps. or something like 27% better efficiency at least with these plates and electrolyte.

Feb 2, 08
Two Mason jars in series, 12 volt regulated, 1/2 teaspoon of lye to 24 ounces deionized water.
1.76 amps 104 bubbles/min 59.1 bubbles/min/amp
(About 76% more bubbles for the same amperage as the previous test)


Antifreeze
I dumped one jar out and poured half of the other one in it. Carefully measured 3 ounces of ethylene glycol into each along with 1/2 teaspoon more of lye. The (deionized) water level was brought back to the original 24 ounce mark on the jar. This means each cell now has 3/4 teaspoon total lye and 12% ethylene glycol.

2.20 amps 168 bubbles/min 76.4 bubbles/min/amp
This is 4.8 times the hydrogen production per amp of the original jar.
I have full range litmus paper on order so the Ph can be measured.